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You said Regina could have just had Belle talk to Rumple about not threatening Robin. Which….do we really believe he would have gone along with that?
Considering he dropped what he was doing with the author to go see Belle at the wishing well, I think he actually might of. Once the Cruella situation happened, Rumple didn’t need Robin any way. Plus all Rumple had to do was not warn Zelena that Regina was coming. He would’ve done that if asked since he’s not Zelena’s biggest fan.
And in the same thread why didn’t Rumple just talk to Regina about going along with his plan to dupe the Wicked Witch? Or you know, telling Robin that his wife is dead and Zelena is Marian? Those are all choices he could have made.
I think it was too risky for Rumple to tell Robin about Zelarian at that point but he strongly hinted that Robin should be with Regina short of a flashing neon sign. As for why Rumple didn’t just talk to Regina, she did just use Belle against him plus he was busy looking for the author.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixRumple was in town for 3 weeks before he kidnapped Regina. Plenty of time to come up with an alternative plan than helping the woman who murdered his son.
What we saw was Belle asking: “How can I help?” and Regina saying, “I’m glad you asked,” with a bit of the old evil queen’s glint in her eyes.
Obviously people are interpreting it differently, and even the sources beyond the show are reporting differences. Here’s how I read it:
Regina then immediately took Belle’s heart, perhaps even seeing the question as consent (Regina has interesting ideas sometimes). She did not waffle about and say, well, if I had your heart, I could blah blah blah. That’s NOT Regina’s style; the ONLY times we’ve seen her waffling about taking a heart since the events of the Doctor were when Snow & Charming cast the curse, in Neverland when Operation Save Henry was debating whether they should use the Lost Boy that way, and when she took Zelena/Marian’s heart to save her life. All three of those times the heart was being used more or less for Heroic moves…when it’s for something SHE wants, she’s far less hesitant. And this was NOT exactly a heroic move–yes, she wants to save Robin, but she also wanted vengeance against Rumple for upping the ante that way. (I do love the echoes of their old power struggle.)
Beyond that, Belle does NOT like giving up her autonomy, would not want to be used as a weapon against Rumple, and certainly wouldn’t consent to having Regina kill her to get her way. Whatever Belle would have agreed to in this case, however much she trusts Regina, she’s not about to say “Sure, you can use me as a puppet to torture Rumple and kill me if he doesn’t obey.”
I do believe, however (and again it’s frustratingly vague) that Regina’s commands were first for Belle to summon Rumple to find out what his plan is, and then didn’t kick in again until after the kiss. Everything before that felt like genuine Belle; everything after was CLEARLY Regina toying with Rumple.
I hope Adam will eventually clarify the lines here for us, because it’s going to become a curtains thing along with all the consent issues of Graham. In other words, UGLY.
Neither Rumple nor Regina are going about things in the right way; both are falling into the usual patterns of their villainous histories. Both are justified in feeling ire at the other. I’m still a little miffed at Robin for violating his code and flipflopping, but definitely in THIS part of the story he and Belle are victims of Rumple, Regina, and Zelena’s long-standing rivalries.
Also Roland. Poor kid 🙁
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
Had he not stopped her from running away on her wedding day, the Evil Queen would have never existed, so those villagers, children, and even Graham would still be alive, so he is partially if not half responsible for the monster her became.
If you wanna pinpoint that moment when Rumple stopped Regina from leaving, in my book he bears as much responsibility as Isaac (thank God I don’t need to write the A word anymore) does for stopping Snowing. We all still blame Snowing for having made the stupid choice and done the stupid thing when Isaac had presented them with the option. So by that same reasoning, I’m gonna hold Regina accountable for her choice in that instance as well.
I don’t deny that Rumple was a word-I-can’t-say-here for how he used Jefferson and Victor to manipulate Regina into going full on dark, (“making his monster”), but maybe she wouldn’t have been in a situation where he’d have been able to manipulate her in that way if she hadn’t made the choice to turn around and keep learning magic, instead of sticking to her guns and leaving.
As for my 2c on HeartGate, I think that it’s absurd that someone who had been treated as she had by Regina in the past would willingly give up her entire agency to said person, and put her life in their hands. I also think it’s absurd that Belle would have given the Dagger to Hook. Basically I think they’ve made Belle act pretty stupid recently. So maybe she DID give her consent for Regina to take her heart because unfortunately it’d be in character for her these days.
If Regina just wanted some help from Belle with the Rumple situation, and if Regina trusted Belle, there shouldn’t have really been any need for her to take her heart at all. There aren’t any spare hearts lying around down in Regina’s vault that they could use as a prop? They couldn’t have had that whole scene at the well (not including the part where Belle mentions Will, which really wasn’t necessary) with Belle just being herself? Then, if she and Regina are legit working together, Regina could have stepped out holding any old random heart and pretend that it was Belle’s. Maybe Regina could give it a fake squeeze and Belle could fake being in pain. Or just Regina ordering Belle off home and forget what happened here and Belle walking off like a zombie would have convinced him. The only reason they made Regina have her actual heart was so she could do the juvenile thing of bringing up Will, which frankly, was unnecessary, (not in a “Regina wouldn’t want to be mean to Rumple” way, because of course she would, I mean in a “did we really need that as a vital part of the scene, no it was superfluous” way.
And in the same thread why didn’t Rumple just talk to Regina about going along with his plan to dupe the Wicked Witch? Or you know, telling Robin that his wife is dead and Zelena is Marian? Those are all choices he could have made.
Because that would involve more scenes with characters actually interacting on a personal/emotional level, which takes time away from ZOMG SHINY SPLODEY TWISTY MAGIC SEECRIT PLOT HAPPENINGZ.
What we saw was Belle asking: “How can I help?” and Regina saying, “I’m glad you asked,” with a bit of the old evil queen’s glint in her eyes.
Obviously people are interpreting it differently, and even the sources beyond the show are reporting differences. Here’s how I read it:
Regina then immediately took Belle’s heart, perhaps even seeing the question as consent (Regina has interesting ideas sometimes). She did not waffle about and say, well, if I had your heart, I could blah blah blah. That’s NOT Regina’s style; the ONLY times we’ve seen her waffling about taking a heart since the events of the Doctor were when Snow & Charming cast the curse, in Neverland when Operation Save Henry was debating whether they should use the Lost Boy that way, and when she took Zelena/Marian’s heart to save her life. All three of those times the heart was being used more or less for Heroic moves…when it’s for something SHE wants, she’s far less hesitant. And this was NOT exactly a heroic move–yes, she wants to save Robin, but she also wanted vengeance against Rumple for upping the ante that way. (I do love the echoes of their old power struggle.)
Beyond that, Belle does NOT like giving up her autonomy, would not want to be used as a weapon against Rumple, and certainly wouldn’t consent to having Regina kill her to get her way. Whatever Belle would have agreed to in this case, however much she trusts Regina, she’s not about to say “Sure, you can use me as a puppet to torture Rumple and kill me if he doesn’t obey.”
I agree 100%
I do believe, however (and again it’s frustratingly vague) that Regina’s commands were first for Belle to summon Rumple to find out what his plan is, and then didn’t kick in again until after the kiss. Everything before that felt like genuine Belle; everything after was CLEARLY Regina toying with Rumple.
I agree to an extent. Surely if Regina had commanded Belle to go to the wishing well, summon Rumple, etc, Belle would’ve had a “What am I doing here?” moment because she didn’t make the conscious decision to do those things? I wonder if Regina took Belle’s heart then asked her to talked to Rumple so Belle thought she was acting of her own free will up to the kiss then Regina puppetted her.
At best, I think Regina took Belle’s heart without asking but then didn’t control Belle until after a kiss so the glimmer of hope for reconciliation is real but then Regina threatened to crush Belle’s heart which is wrong.
However at the same time, if Belle still genuinely feels that way for Rumple then why is she with Will?
I hope Adam will eventually clarify the lines here for us, because it’s going to become a curtains thing along with all the consent issues of Graham. In other words, UGLY.
I hopes so too. Clarification is needed which means it probably won’t happen.
Neither Rumple nor Regina are going about things in the right way; both are falling into the usual patterns of their villainous histories. Both are justified in feeling ire at the other. I’m still a little miffed at Robin for violating his code and flipflopping, but definitely in THIS part of the story he and Belle are victims of Rumple, Regina, and Zelena’s long-standing rivalries.
I agree. I’m convinced Zelena is either going to be pregnant or fake a pregnancy in order to cause more drama for OQ. Robin will end up with Regina because the Zelarian deception can’t continue forever but Robin’s “code” won’t let him abandoned his “unborn child” no matter how much he despises Zelena.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI’m convinced Zelena is either going to be pregnant or fake a pregnancy in order to cause more drama for OQ. Robin will end up with Regina because the Zelarian deception can’t continue forever but Robin’s “code” won’t let him abandoned his “unborn child” no matter how much he despises Zelena.
I think even this show wouldn’t touch that with a 30 ft. pole.
There aren’t any spare hearts lying around down in Regina’s vault that they could use as a prop? They couldn’t have had that whole scene at the well (not including the part where Belle mentions Will, which really wasn’t necessary) with Belle just being herself? Then, if she and Regina are legit working together, Regina could have stepped out holding any old random heart and pretend that it was Belle’s
I actually don’t think this was possible. Regina’s goal was two-fold. To find out why Rumple was in town and to hold something over Rumple that would convince him not to rat on Zelena.
To accomplish the first obviously they didn’t even need a heart. To accomplish the second, a real threat had to be established. If Belle never said those callous things, Rumple would never have believed she was being controlled. We saw Rumple challenge Regina’s willingness to complete the threat after realizing Belle was being controlled. To me that shows you how unsuccessful a fake heart would go over.
I do agree that the real victims are Belle, Robin, and (Roland). I could go on a whole rant about what loving a villain means on this show, but I won’t.
However at the same time, if Belle still genuinely feels that way for Rumple then why is she with Will?
Because the writers want to create drama and angst just for the heck of it. They enjoy tearing out the figurative hearts of Rumbelle and ScarletQueen fans and toying with them. I am expecting Anastasia to be dead at this point (again), but I hope I’m wrong.
I don’t deny that Rumple was a word-I-can’t-say-here for how he used Jefferson and Victor to manipulate Regina into going full on dark, (“making his monster”), but maybe she wouldn’t have been in a situation where he’d have been able to manipulate her in that way if she hadn’t made the choice to turn around and keep learning magic, instead of sticking to her guns and leaving.
I agree. Rumple and Cora may have manipulated events such that Regina’s life sucked, but it was Regina’s choice to turn around and marry Leopold. Cora had already gone through the mirror at that point, and Regina had yet to say “I do” at that point. No one held a gun at Regina’s head and made her say those marriage vows. Rumple certainly preyed upon Regina’s vulnerability for dark magic and unstable emotional state, but Rumple didn’t pull the trigger, so to speak. He simply knows how to recognize a desperate soul, like Zoso did.
As for my 2c on HeartGate, I think that it’s absurd that someone who had been treated as she had by Regina in the past would willingly give up her entire agency to said person, and put her life in their hands. I also think it’s absurd that Belle would have given the Dagger to Hook. Basically I think they’ve made Belle act pretty stupid recently. So maybe she DID give her consent for Regina to take her heart because unfortunately it’d be in character for her these days.
WORD. Whether her heart was given by consent or not, either way the situation is a lose-lose in my estimation. If Regina steals her heart and then erases Belle’s memory of it (something we actually saw Regina do), it makes Regina come off smelling like a villain. If Belle gives up her heart willingly, it makes Belle seem as stupid as ever like when she trusted “Hook” (another person who terrorized her and made her life hell). Either way, Belle is still used as leverage over Rumple (and in the most callous way, seeing how Regina made Belle say incredibly hurtful things for a man I bet she still loves deep down). I’m not saying Rumple didn’t have it coming to him (he did), but Belle and Robin are the only innocent party here. Both Regina and Rumple are playing a very dangerous game in which they are vying for the title of chess champion while Robin and Belle are pawn pieces. I’m not a huge fan of they way either Regina or Rumple is being written at present, but I do think they both were using darker tactics to try and protect the ones they love.
If Belle never said those callous things, Rumple would never have believed she was being controlled. We saw Rumple challenge Regina’s willingness to complete the threat after realizing Belle was being controlled. To me that shows you how unsuccessful a fake heart would go over.
I disagree. Belle could’ve just acted like it was her heart which Regina was squeezing. There was always that small chance that Rumple wouldn’t have believed Belle’s acting, but he seemed so distressed as soon as Regina started to apply pressure that he immediately agreed to Regina’s terms. A man who is in that much distress over seeing his beloved’s heart being squeezed could almost believe anything in the heat of the moment, even enough to be fooled into thinking a fake heart belonged to Belle.
I do agree that the real victims are Belle, Robin, and (Roland). I could go on a whole rant about what loving a villain means on this show, but I won’t.
Yeah, that’s an issue for all of the villain-hero pairings. The problem with dating a villain (even a former one) is that villains create many enemies. And as we’ve seen with Rumple, many villains have tried to target Belle over the decades to get at Rumple (e.g. the QoD, Regina, and Hook). Come to think of it, I’m almost surprised Zelena hasn’t targeted Belle yet to get at Rumple, but then again Zelena did go after Baelfire instead.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Rumple and Cora may have manipulated events such that Regina’s life sucked, but it was Regina’s choice to turn around and marry Leopold. Cora had already gone through the mirror at that point, and Regina had yet to say “I do” at that point. No one held a gun at Regina’s head and made her say those marriage vows.
Wasn’t Regina like 17-18 years old? A series of traumatic things happened to her. She’s engaged to the King, who is 3x her age, even though she never consented to that and you expected her to have the agency to just say “Welp, never mind!”? Regina never said yes. Her decision to not say no does not mean she consented.
All of that reads to me like a proverbial gun to her head.
Wasn’t Regina like 17-18 years old? A series of traumatic things happened to her. She’s engaged to the King, who is 3x her age, even though she never consented to that and you expected her to have the agency to just say “Welp, never mind!”? Regina never said yes. Her decision to not say no does not mean she consented. All of that reads to me like a proverbial gun to her head.
How do you know Regina never said yes? Regina is the one who said the marriage vows, not her mother or Rumple. Her mother wasn’t even present at Regina’s wedding, because Cora was in Wonderland by then. I’ve had this same discussion with fans of Regina since S2, so I don’t want to get into again. All I’m going to say is that 18 is the legal age of adulthood at which people are allowed to smoke, to legally marry without parental permission, to vote for president, own property, go to war, and in most countries, drink. A person at the age 18 will be tried as an adult in a court of law. Therefore, a person who is a legal adult must face the consequences of his or her own choices. Unless someone had Regina’s heart (e.g. Cora, Rumple), no one forced Regina to walk down that aisle or to say “I do.”
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
How do you know Regina never said yes?
On the show that we’ve all watched Regina never said yes. And while the legal age is 18 in the United States we are talking about the Enchanted Kingdom where the King is the law and you are making the argument that Regina, the 18 year old girl has the agency to tell the King, who is the law, no, I don’t want to marry you even though my mother said yes.
And your whole argument would be irrelevant if Regina is 17 instead of 18. Which is a real possibility.
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