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On the show that we’ve all watched Regina never said yes. And while the legal age is 18 in the United States we are talking about the Enchanted Kingdom where the King is the law and you are making the argument that Regina, the 18 year old girl has the agency to tell the King, who is the law, no, I don’t want to marry you even though my mother said yes.
It’s true that we never saw the actual wedding ceremony between Regina and Leopold, so we didn’t actually hear the words “I do” come out of Regina’s mouth. Yet, there could be no marriage if it weren’t for Regina saying those words. As for Regina’s betrothal to Leopold, I think she could have broken her engagement to the king. Despite Leopold’s proposal being accepted by Cora, I don’t think Leopold was so unreasonable that he would’ve punished Regina if she’d gone to him and said she didn’t want to marry him. Not even a king has the power to force someone to say yes in a wedding vow.
Cora herself said that Leopold was not a strong man, and that the kingdom would be Regina’s once wed. That doesn’t make Leopold sound like an strong-willed, unyielding kind of king, but like one who would’ve listened to Regina. Would Leopold have locked up Regina or her father for honestly making her desire known to call off their marriage? That answer is going to differ based on interpretation, but I doubt it. True, Regina said she felt like a prisoner after she married the king, but I doubt she was ever his actual prisoner under lock and key. Leopold wasn’t a murderous tyrant, for all his shortcomings given his complicated history with the Mills women. By all other accounts, Leopold was a fair and just king. For example, Leopold wished for the genie to be free, revealing he didn’t use his wishes for selfish gain. I think Leopold would’ve honored Regina’s request to break off the engagement that her mother made on her behalf. The thing is, we can never know for sure, because that isn’t what happened. I’m basing my surmising on what we’ve seen and know of Leopold in the story.
[adrotate group="5"]"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Despite Leopold’s proposal being accepted by Cora, I don’t think Leopold was so unreasonable that he would’ve punished Regina if she’d gone to him and said she didn’t want to marry him.
Leopold first of all wanted to marry a teenager, even if it was just because of Snow. Thats questionable. He then accepted her consent of marriage from her mother, not her. So that makes him doubly sketchy in regards to Regina.
Not even a king has the power to force someone to say yes in a wedding vow.
While I don’t think Leopold would force her to say yes, a King could definitely make this happen. We’re talking about a teenager being asked by the main power welder in the land, who could be her grandfather, for her hand in marriage. He can do whatever he wants.
. True, Regina said she felt like a prisoner after she married the king, but I doubt she was ever his actual prisoner under lock and key.
In the Genie story Leopold locked Regina in her room because he read her diary and thought she was cheating on him. He then asked the Genie to kill whoever the man was. So we have seen Leopold lock Regina up for doing something he didn’t like and ordering the murder of someone who was in his way.
Leopold the King and Leopold, Regina’s husband are two different things.
While I don’t think Leopold would force her to say yes, a King could definitely make this happen. We’re talking about a teenager being asked by the main power welder in the land, who could be her grandfather, for her hand in marriage. He can do whatever he wants.
We just have very different views. I agree Leo was sketchy to marry someone so much younger, but I don’t think he tyrannical. For example, Leo didn’t arrest Cora after she tried to con him into marrying her so she could pass off Zelena as his child. Instead, Leopold quietly ended their engagement, as I think he would’ve done for Regina. I don’t think anyone forced Regina to say her wedding vows to Leopold. I think by the time Rumple stopped her on the road, she’d had a taste for power after sending her mother through the mirror–a moment she loved.
As was said in We Are Both:
Regina: And I won’t become like her [Cora]?
Rumple: That, dearie, is entirely up to you.Regina had responsibility in choosing her destiny. I think Regina wanted power by then. That incident of using magic changed her, and may have led to her wanting the title of queen, which prompted her to turn around and marry Leo. The irony is that Regina became like Cora, which was up to Regina, as Rumple said. What’s more is that Regina was already a royal by birth from another kingdom (King Xavier), so I don’t think she was under the command of Leopold, who ruled a neighboring kingdom. I think this conversation is circular, and ultimately will prove fruitless. So we may have to agree to disagree.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
On the show that we’ve all watched Regina never said yes. And while the legal age is 18 in the United States we are talking about the Enchanted Kingdom where the King is the law and you are making the argument that Regina, the 18 year old girl has the agency to tell the King, who is the law, no, I don’t want to marry you even though my mother said yes. And your whole argument would be irrelevant if Regina is 17 instead of 18. Which is a real possibility.
I hate to play the devil’s advocate on that one because it’s a touchy issue, but by this logic, whether 17 or 18, if Enchanted Kingdom is at all modeled on the kind of Medieval Europe that the image of monarchic sovereignty you present comes from, then marriageable age is also way way younger. A 17 or 18 year old would have probably been considered a grown woman, and would be expected to have had children by then. Notions of adulthood are so very historically and culturally variable. Similarly, if we, say, take another example of popular “medieval” fantasy, such as Game of Thrones, while the actress who plays Danaerys is older, the books suggest that the character is 13 when she is given into marriage.
We might find that pretty questionable, but, again, if life expectancy is about 45, then it makes perfect sense that what counts as childhood is shorter. Does that mean that Regina at 17 or 18 would be more of an adult? Not necessarily, but she’d be expected to be, and no one would be cutting her any slack for being still “young and innocent.”
Henry. Has no survival skills! After how many times being kidnapped?!
Henry is to OAAT as Daphne is to Scooby Doo
–I’m headcanoning that Regina let Belle be Belle until she got bored (and had the info she needed) and then poured on the snark. Belle might not remember what happened (boo) but I think it was her up through the kiss–as much her will as anything a heart-controlled person does. (Regina probably didn’t let Belle be aware that she’d taken her heart, though. See dislikes.) And I loved every moment of their reunion.
My theory is that this was never Belle’s heart. I believe it was either Regina’s or (more likely) one from the vault. I think Belle was was playing along with Regina to fool Rumple. I also think Belle was fully aware that she told Rumple that Will kissed better, and she derived pleasure from getting back at him.
One thing about it…we were shown that Leopold was a very jealous man, (The Genie Episode), and he clearly forbid Regina from ever stepping foot outside what’s technically now half of her kingdom, (Quite a Common Fairy). No matter how anyone wants to spin it, Regina was an eighteen year old prisoner who was forced to marry a man thrice her age, and mother the girl who ratted her out.
And once again, had Rumple not stopped Regina on that path, none of that would have happened. And I think now we can even say the Author…had he not stopped Snowing on their way, Maleficent’s child wouldn’t have been stolen.
And Leopold….despite this great king we saw, we also saw that this man was possessive…very possessive and quite sick if you ask me because why would you want to marry the daughter of your ex-fiancée, not to mention you’re old enough to be her grandfather????? It was more than just a mother to Snow….Leo wanted himself a younger woman. XD
And as for Rumple….as we saw with what he did with Emma and the Sorcerer’s Hat, he did the same thing to Regina….he makes it seem like you have a choice, but he tells you enough to get you to choose what he wants you to choose, therefore it counts as manipulation, Rumple’s best game.
Not to mention the fact that although Regina never wanted to become like Cora, Rumple ensured that every plan in Regina’s life not to become evil, failed, because he wanted his monster.
Again, not taking Regina’s own responsibility because she could have chosen later in the game to change, but by then Rumple’s dark influence was too far rooted in her to pull out. I’d split the responsibility between Regina, Rumple, and Cora.
Now, we could all be wrong, and it all comes out that all this was against their will because the Author changed Page 23!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
I hate to play the devil’s advocate on that one because it’s a touchy issue, but by this logic, whether 17 or 18, if Enchanted Kingdom is at all modeled on the kind of Medieval Europe that the image of monarchic sovereignty you present comes from, then marriageable age is also way way younger. A 17 or 18 year old would have probably been considered a grown woman, and would be expected to have had children by then.
Cora did comment to Henry Sr that Regina was in danger of becoming an “old maid”.
Henry. Has no survival skills! After how many times being kidnapped?!
Henry is to OAAT as Daphne is to Scooby Doo
A fairly accurate comparison although Daphne did start getting kidnapped less in the later/revamped seasons of Scooby Doo.
My theory is that this was never Belle’s heart. I believe it was either Regina’s or (more likely) one from the vault. I think Belle was was playing along with Regina to fool Rumple. I also think Belle was fully aware that she told Rumple that Will kissed better, and she derived pleasure from getting back at him.
That was definitely Belle’s heart Regina had. It’s not in Belle’s nature to be cruel.
One thing about it…we were shown that Leopold was a very jealous man, (The Genie Episode), and he clearly forbid Regina from ever stepping foot outside what’s technically now half of her kingdom, (Quite a Common Fairy). No matter how anyone wants to spin it, Regina was an eighteen year old prisoner who was forced to marry a man thrice her age, and mother the girl who ratted her out.
I don’t remember Leopold forbidding Regina from doing anything.
Leopold seemed like quite a neglectful husband and Regina complained that he didn’t love her like he loved his first wife but I don’t think he was ever abusive towards Regina. Also we only had Regina’s word that Leopold confined her to his chambers.
And Leopold….despite this great king we saw, we also saw that this man was possessive…very possessive and quite sick if you ask me because why would you want to marry the daughter of your ex-fiancée, not to mention you’re old enough to be her grandfather????? It was more than just a mother to Snow….Leo wanted himself a younger woman. XD
What were Leopold’s exact words to Sidney?
Leopold was a neglectful husband certainly but how much did Regina lie and manipulate the situation to make Leopold look bad so Sidney would kill him for her?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixCora did comment to Henry Sr that Regina was in danger of becoming an “old maid”.
Maleficent also said that Snow got married at the same age Regina got married. How old was Snow when she married Charming? I would’ve guessed that Snow was in her 20s. IF so, then that would mean Regina was in her 20s when she married Leo.
Leopold was a neglectful husband certainly but how much did Regina lie and manipulate the situation to make Leopold look bad so Sidney would kill him for her?
Agree. Regina was setting up Sydney to murder her husband. Of course, Regina was going to slant things to make Sydney sympathize with her and do her dirty work for her. By that time, Regina was the Evil Queen, and she may have exaggerated the truth. While Leo was neglectful of Regina, she was free to come and go from the castle, as we saw when she left to go with Tinkerbell to the tavern. Also, Regina was able to leave the castle to practice magic with Rumple. I think Regina was able to bend Leo to her will on a lot of matters, as Cora said the Leo was not a strong man.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Both Regina and Rumple are playing a very dangerous game in which they are vying for the title of chess champion while Robin and Belle are pawn pieces. I’m not a huge fan of they way either Regina or Rumple is being written at present, but I do think they both were using darker tactics to try and protect the ones they love.
Exactly. I think there are two questions with this hornet’s nest issue of the HeartGate as @Phee so aptly named it. First, both Rumple and Regina come across as, essentially, using the same tactics on each other, which I think is meant to remind us that they’re cut from the same cloth, in that those tactics are what villains on OUAT like to use in general. Here’s the interesting implication: what that encounter established is whether or not Rumple was willing to call Regina on her bluff. As in, the old, unredeemed Regina WOULD throw anyone under the bus, no problem, if she felt that this was a way to get to her way. As would Rumple, of course. But Regina has been working on her redemption. In this case, she has to convey to Rumple that she’s still as “ends justify the means” as she used to be — and not just purely efficient Machiavellian logic either, but she’s essentially claiming that she’s kept that really cruel streak as well. Now, Rumple isn’t dumb, and I doubt that he thinks Regina is quite so willing to slide back, but he’s not putting his money on it. In other words, Rumple is in a weaker position not because Regina has one over him with Belle’s heart, however questionably obtained, but because he’s not willing to push her on her bluff, and has to accept her self-professed evilness as valid, however much he might think she’s full of it. In other words, Rumple is actually himself not willing to use Machiavellian means to test Regina’s bluff (i.e. call Zelena and escalate things).
Actually, the parallels in this episode were interesting. All three (ex)villains (Rumple, Regina, and Cruella) used something that their enemy loves to try to get the upper hand. As the audience, we actually know that only one was bluffing for sure — ironically, Cruella. This leaves the question, are Rumple and Regina also bluffing, and if push came to shove, how far would they go? I keep having this ‘unreliable narrator’ feeling from both this episode, and the previous one (though maybe that’s just shoddy writing). In any case, I think it’s interesting that this “ends justify means” game that everyone is playing in the episode is a slippery slope. And I really do think Rumple and Regina have a tendency to enable one another’s tendency to slip into old habits.
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