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This is funny because the argument is that somehow Regina is responsible for all of her choices despite being manipulated, but Leopold was not. There was no way Leopold could have been manipulated if he didn’t a) read Regina’s diary b) lock her in a tower c) ask the Genie to find the man who she was ‘in love with’. It is interesting how people see two different things while watching the same source material.
I think what’s interesting is how Regina fans want Regina to achieve redemption but don’t want to acknowledge the bad things that she needs the redemption for. It’s a paradox. How can Regina redeem herself if she’s done nothing wrong and she was just being manipulated. Regina is responsible for her own actions. She made the choices she did. She has to accept responsibility for them. “Rumple made me do it” isn’t accepting responsibility, it’s passing the blame. Rumple may have influenced Regina but at the end of the day, she chose to slaughter an entire village, she chose to send children to their deaths at the hand of the blind witch, she chose to make Graham her sex-slave.
Regina is in the wrong in this situation. The question is how much in the wrong? Did Belle give consent? If not, then Regina is 100% in the wrong with what she did. If Belle did give consent, how far did that consent extend?
We acknowledge full well the evil Regina has committed, but we also know that her particular evil could have been well avoided had Rumpelstilskin left her alone, and not showed up to stop her. And Regina has acknowledged that she was a terrible person, hence she confessed her sins in 3×09 Saving Henry, she just doesn’t feel regret for them because she knows that would be the same as saying she regretted ever gaining Henry. So it’s not passing the blame, it’s giving a portion of the blame where it rightfully belongs, which is to Rumpelstilskin, who is even still quite proud of the monster he created.
Had there been no Evil Queen, there’d be no slaughtered village, no children massacre, no sex slave Graham, though truth be told….ummm…that Graham case, the punishment was a bit extreme, but he did make a deal with the Evil Queen, then went back on it, tried to deceive her, and inadvertently mocked her intelligence……not a very smart move on his part really. I mean…punishment was bound to befall him.
Now…do say how in the world could Regina have gotten Rumple to behave while she was away if she couldn’t use Belle? There would have been no way in doing so, and she basically did “an eye for an eye”…he threatened her soul mate, and she’s threatening his true love, though the only difference is…his true love is on it. It’s a dangerous game, but a game that had to be played if she has to go rescue Robin and Roland from Zelena, while also making sure Rumple doesn’t go on a killing spree while she’s away.
And I wonder why Page 23 was rewritten the way that it was, but I’ve got my eye on either Cora or Rumple…mainly Cora.
[adrotate group="5"]"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
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I remember seeing this movie on late night TV … CRUELLA’S story is similar …We acknowledge full well the evil Regina has committed, but we also know that her particular evil could have been well avoided had Rumpelstilskin left her alone, and not showed up to stop her. And Regina has acknowledged that she was a terrible person, hence she confessed her sins in 3×09 Saving Henry, she just doesn’t feel regret for them because she knows that would be the same as saying she regretted ever gaining Henry. So it’s not passing the blame, it’s giving a portion of the blame where it rightfully belongs, which is to Rumpelstilskin, who is even still quite proud of the monster he created.
Sure, Rumple is partially responsible for what Regina became. But then we can play this blame redistribution game until the chickens come home to roost. We could say, for example, that had Cora not reneged on her relationship with Rumple by choosing to marry the king, they’d be off happily villainous somewhere, Regina would have never been born, and this whole mess would have been avoided altogether. Sounds pretty absurd, right? We might say that Rumple would have never been content until he found his son etc — which is probably right within the parameters of the character, but pure speculation, as is the speculation that Regina wouldn’t have found some other path that lead her to EQ. Ultimately, they all made their choices between several possible alternatives — to say that, when a character arrives at a moral fork in the road, they could have taken the more virtuous path had the road not been forked is a logical fallacy.
At the end of the day…I still say Belle knew exactly what she was getting herself into, and knew whom she was dealing with… “How Can I Help?” well, that’s more or less saying “I’m in.”
Raise your hand if you’re surprised that our forums number 1 Regina fan think it was all 100% consensual.
(no seriously, I love you WR, but you thinking that is like saying the ocean is wet)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"ummm…that Graham case, the punishment was a bit extreme, but he did make a deal with the Evil Queen, then went back on it, tried to deceive her, and inadvertently mocked her intelligence……not a very smart move on his part really. I mean…punishment was bound to befall him
did you just….justify rape?
*read again*
Yes. Yes you did. That was basically, “he got what was coming to him because he didn’t do what she told him*
Good LORD. Please engage in this thought experiment. Reverse the genders: Regina is a male and Graham is a woman. NOW say what you just said, “Graham (the female) got what was coming to her because she disobeyed Regina (a male)”
Pretty uncomfortable, no? Pretty terrible. Cringe inducing even. “Call the cops cause it’s domestic abuse” level bad.
Sweet heaven. The double standard.
News flash: men can be raped. Graham was raped. There is no justification for what she did. Saying, “his punishment (RAPE) was earned because of what did not do…” Oh lord. No.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Now…do say how in the world could Regina have gotten Rumple to behave while she was away if she couldn’t use Belle? There would have been no way in doing so, and she basically did “an eye for an eye”…he threatened her soul mate, and she’s threatening his true love, though the only difference is…his true love is on it. It’s a dangerous game, but a game that had to be played if she has to go rescue Robin and Roland from Zelena, while also making sure Rumple doesn’t go on a killing spree while she’s away.
No. Belle is not “in on it.” Even IF she agreed to let Regina remove her heart (which doesn’t make sense to me AT ALL given what we saw and how both characters have been portrayed throughout the series), Regina used the heart to command Belle to forget everything that had just happened. She no longer even knows that she saw Rumple in the forest.
(I suspect this is where the whole concept of “it isn’t Belle’s heart really” comes from–the need to escape the fact that Regina DID squeeze, causing off-screen pain to Belle, did threaten to crush the heart, which would have killed Belle, and took away even Belle’s memory of seeing Rumple…if Belle is “in on it” and it wasn’t her actual heart, then lo and behold, Regina is all innocent?)
Look, Regina is in a tight spot. I get that. She wants to save Robin from Zelena and Rumple. From a Regina perspective (which is already a very skewed perspective), she’s justified in using Rumple’s tactics against him. Since S1, she’s known of ONE way to have power over Rumple that’s actually effective: Belle. This is hardly the first time she’s used Belle as a weapon against Rumple; even in S3 when they were on neutral terms, she gave the dagger to Belle and not Rumple.
None of that means that she’s in the right for taking Belle’s heart. Even if Belle consented to the entire plan beforehand (highly doubtful), there are some things that are just a little bit beyond consent, like, yanno, potentially being murdered.
This DOES get all tangled up with the Graham stuff (another reason I’m really bothered by their decision to leave it ambiguous), which is already a mess and a half. I only just read both the comics (they are gloriously done), and honestly, the Shadow of the Queen story only muddled the situation further. In the comic, they have Graham regain his heart, but to save others, he consents to the queen’s taking his heart again–pretty much exactly what we’re talking about if Belle agreed to have Regina take her heart for these purposes.
It’s a royal mess but even assuming some level of consent, Regina abused her power over Belle’s heart and raped Graham. Trying to assert MORE consent from her victims (or worse, suggesting that she’s right in killing/torturing them if they don’t do as she asks) doesn’t sit well with me. It feels like warping what we’re seeing, warping her character as well as the characters of her victims, to make her less evil. But if she’s less evil, then her redemption is less meaningful, as others have said.
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Good Lord. I am settling this.
From ABC.com….their official recap
In present-day Storybrooke, Regina breaks the news that the Wicked Witch is still alive. She’s headed for New York to save Robin Hood, but not before getting something she needs from Belle. Gold lets Isaac know that he’s going to get ink for the quill. It’s all part of his plan to turn the savior dark. Gold cuts their conversation short to meet with Belle. He shows her his hurting heart. Soon he will lose any ability to love. Only the author can help him.
Regina reveals that she has control of Belle’s heart.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"As regards Belle’s heart, the official recap sounds like one of K&H’s evasive answers to a direct question. It leaves all the wiggle room they need if they want to do a big surprise reveal later.
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As regards Belle’s heart, the official recap sounds like one of K&H’s evasive answers to a direct question. It leaves all the wiggle room they need if they want to do a big surprise reveal later.
A and E don’t write the recap; ABC does. They aren’t being evasive in order not to spoil; they are telling people what happened.
And…To what end? What would be the point of it being “omgosh surprise! Wasn’t Belle’s heart all along! It was really Belle acting that way!” It’s disjointed. They couldn’t show Regina taking Belle’s heart because that ruins the BAM when Regina walks out into the woods with the heart. That’s the narrative surprise here, not that it wasn’t Belle’s heart. For them to go the other route:
1) That would involve the writers caring enough about Belle to give her some sort of character development like suddenly being stone cold to Rumple *after* they’ve shown how upset she is by everything that’s happened since she learned Rumple is back. They’ve shown (marginally) how much this is hurting her. Suddenly turning on a dime and being all “Will’s a better kisser and I don’t care that you’re dying after you’ve shown me your tiny black heart” isn’t her and it doesn’t fit with what we’ve seen thus far. It DOES fit if your heart is being controlled.
2) With only a few episodes left the big reveal is what we know is coming through spoilers. Lily, Cora, OQ reunion, the villains winning, Emma’s death It not being Belle’s heart isn’t a big reveal. Not when the show is ramping up for the above mentioned ones.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"And…To what end? What would be the point of it being “omgosh surprise! Wasn’t Belle’s heart all along! It was really Belle acting that way!” It’s disjointed. They couldn’t show Regina taking Belle’s heart because that ruins the BAM when Regina walks out into the woods with the heart. That’s the narrative surprise here, not that it wasn’t Belle’s heart.
Oh, dear lord, THIS! I don’t get what the problem is. Why the elaborate scenarios for how Belle might be in on it that make little sense with either the ABC party line, or the episode itself? Is it out of a undying devotion to Regina, or out of some kind of deep loathing for Rumbelle, or a combination thereof?
Regina’s redemption isn’t going to be a linear process. There will be setbacks — if it were easy, there’d be no villains. We only just saw her bully (young) Pinocchio. Yes, she apologized for it (to Geppeto), that’s progress, but that doesn’t annul the fact that she flew off the handle at a little kid (unless we’re going to argue that “the rug rat had it coming”?) Seriously, she stumbles, screws up, and makes questionable moral decisions — as do most of OUAT’s characters. Trying to reinterpret the entire show such that Regina can come out light and fluffy out of every situation does her otherwise interesting, layered character a disservice.
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