FAVORITE AND LEAST FAVORITE MOMENTS from 6 x06. . . DARK WATERS

[thedarkonedearie]

this comment is not an anti-Hook rant, so please do not interpret it this way. It’s an anti-medieval gender ideology rant. Hence the Torquemada reference.

It just seemed you didn’t like that Hook was becoming a better person this year.

[Gaultheria]

You’re right, I apologize. I’ll change it in my post. It was a live reaction to what I was seeing. Usually I’m better than that and catch it before I post. Sorry ?

Thanks, RG. You put in a lot of time keeping this board going and keeping discussions from becoming too heated, so I know it wasn’t meant nasty.

Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher

[onceaholic]

REACTION SUMMARY:

What the flip did I just watch? Until now, season 6 had been bumping along at 7/10 for me. But after this episode, my hopes for this show (or at least this season) sunk along with the sheers.

3/10

 

DETAIL

Warning: Scathing review.

LIKES

-The gang rescued Archie. That plot point was not neglected.

-Henry’s acting is improving.

-Generally another amazing performance from Lana, except the Southern accent. This was out of place and just gross.

-The question over whether EQ loves Henry was clearly answered via her manipulation tactics. The answer is obviously: no.

DISLIKES

-Eeeeeewwwwww!!!! Did EQ and Rumple really have to go there? The attraction was NEVER there between them until this season. Does the EQ care that he had already kissed her mother and her sister (perhaps more?). And Rumple, how many Mills women do you want? I think we can guess who Robin will have a fling with when she grows up. Keep it in the family!

And really, there is enough tension/drama between Belle and Rumple right now. This fling really isn’t needed.

Moreover, it is taking a great deal of restraint for me not to tweet Lana and suggest to her to leave the show RIGHT NOW, to jump the ship before it sinks completely and protect her reputation as an actress. (Actually, I wanted to do it when we found out that EQ had planned to kill Marian, but anyway none of my business so…).

-Another boring backstory (and performance) for Hook.

-Liam v.2 got over Hook’s betrayal waaaay too fast.

– Henry being dropped into the water and then suddenly appearing with not a drop of water dripping off his suit ROFL.

-BELLE (and SNOW). Rumple doesn’t need to be a part of the baby’s life. Seriously, wow. He is an abusive piece of dung who is not going to change in Belle’s lifetime because (a) he loves his power so much that he became the Ultimate! Dark One (b) I can imagine it is even harder to give up the darkness now that he is drawn in by all the Dark Magic of all the previous Dark Ones (c) he has made nowhere near the amount of effort Regina has made to change, either even before the the Ultimate DO plot. Belle, be sensible. Keep both yourself and the baby well away from Rumple. Rumple does not have rights to the baby just because he is the genetic father. And the baby does not need his DO influence.

(And when are the writers actually going to do something with this Ultimate DO plot point anyway?).

-The Dark Curse not being as far-reaching as previously thought.

-The scene with Aladdin and Emma at the town line. Both actors where speaking too fast while mumbling, and I had to use English subs despite being a native speaker of English. The actors both have fast-talking, mumbling habits, and they should not be in scene together until it is fixed.

-Aladdin’s accent continues to grate. For the past two episodes, I have only caught about 20% of what he has said. I am a Brit, so I would say that is accent is a mix of Australian and Cockney, yet I don’t understand him in the slightest.

-Henry all of a sudden having issues with Hook. And you’d think his murderous past would be more of an issue than choice in breakfast, but nope…!

CONFUSIONS: EPISODE

Does anybody know exactly what Rumple’s plans are with the sheers? His explanation was very convoluted.

CONFUSION: SEASON

Shouldn’t some of Regina’s magic be light magic now that EQ has been separated from her?

Keeper of Regina's bravery

[nonnie]

Generally another amazing performance from Lana, except the Southern accent. This was out of place and just gross.

I think Lana is enjoying EQ and the CAMP factor has been turned up…. I am enjoying it tremendously. I love sarcasm well done.

ONCEAHOLIC …. I agree with a lot about what you said in your post

[sciencevsmagic]

So because of bad past actions, Hook isn’t allowed to get redemption because he’s male?  What about all the bad stuff Rumple has done?  We constantly forgive him.  What about the EQ/Regina?  We forgave her.

First of all, I don’t think Rumple is in anyone’s good books at the moment. The writing for him has seen to that. As for Regina, we are supposed to go along with this EQ storyline, which is insinuating that the evil in Regina is was still in her, therefore she could not be fully trusted and hence the split.

Now for Hook. It’s not about him not being allowed redemption because he’s male. For me, it’s about the fact that they chose a man with a history of murder, abuse and harrassment of women, in other words, a man who embodies toxic masculinity, and chose to make him the hero of their story. Now that they’ve finally realised that it bothers people, they’re trying to justify this by giving him easy opportunies to prove what a good guy he is. Take the case of Belle. It seems strange that she’d to Hook of all people for protection. She does have friends in Storybrooke, like Grumpy, who might’ve looked out for her. But no, she goes to Hook and shuns all modern conveniences like electricity and indoor plumbing to live aboard his ship. This whole scenario was nothing more than a soft pitch lobbed at Hook so that he could hit a home run. To use a corporate analogy, it reminds me of executives promoting a member of their boys’ club over more deserving candidates and then giving him a straightforward but high profile project to prove to everyone that he deserves his promotion.

From a Watsonian perspective, I might come to like Hook if he keeps up this good behaviour for a while longer. From a Doylist perspective, I’ll always resent the fact that A&E chose this particular character to devote so much care to writing, while killing off other characters (eg Robin) because they couldn’t be bothered, or systematically dismantling complex and much loved characters like Rumple and Belle.

[thedarkonedearie]

I’ll always resent the fact that A&E chose this particular character to devote so much care to writing, while killing off other characters (eg Robin) because they couldn’t be bothered, or systematically dismantling complex and much loved characters like Rumple and Belle.

Hook’s actions made him interesting, made him loathed by people, loved by some.  He’s controversial.  He allegedly loves the Savior.  That is why they devote so much care to him.  Robin, did not have these qualities that made him controversial.  He was boring.  Yes, I suppose you could say the writers made him boring by not fleshing out his character, but some of the best characters on television are the ones that are hated.   It sparks chatter and gets people invested (possibly hoping that terrible person dies for example).  Hook was a villain when he was brought into the show and and he acted like such.  Now if you want to be angry that the writers decided to have him fall for Emma and have Emma accept him, well then that’s perfectly reasonable.  But I don’t get how you can not understand why the writers have devoted so much time writing for him simply because he’s what you call a bad person.

But anyone can change and they are choosing to have Hook change into a better person.  Yes, they are giving him layups and are writing it in on purpose, but isn’t that how it’s done.   When they want Rumple to be a jerk, they have him do stupid stuff like force Belle on a boat that she can’t escape from.  Again, this all seems like bias opinions toward not liking Hook because of Neal.  I don’t want to put any words in anyone’s mouth but it just seems that way to me.  Before this season and before Regina split herself, EVERYONE FORGAVE HER when she started doing good things.  She slaughtered an entire village for goodness sake.  She used light magic to save everybody from Zelena in 3b and from the second dark curse in season 3a.  And maybe not now, but a season or two ago, MOSTLY EVERYONE FORGAVE Rumple for his past actions as the dark one as soon as he started spilling to Belle how much he loved her.    MOSTLY EVERYONE FORGAVE Zelena after all the stuff she pulled (SHE KILLED NEAL!!!) just because she seemed like someone who actually cared about her child and she killed Hades and saved Regina and everyone for that matter.  But now, Hook does some nice things harboring Belle, saves Henry, saves Belle from certain death, and now he doesn’t deserve redemption?  He doesn’t deserve to be written for?  I’m sorry, but it’s hard for that not to come off as being biased because of who’s he dating and who he’s dating dated before his death.  It’s just really unfair to Hook I think.

[sciencevsmagic]

But I don’t get how you can not understand why the writers have devoted so much time writing for him simply because he’s what you call a bad person.

This oversimplifies my argument. It’s clear from the way he’s being written this season that the writers have spent a lot of time going through feedback about the character and adjusted his behaviour accordingly. They have not done the same for other characters. Rumple, once so complex and nuanced, has pretty much been reduced to a horned horror. Belle has been reduced to a righteous nag. Why don’t they put the same effort in for these characters?  Yes, Hook has qualities which make him interesting, but he’s not the only one with intriguing qualities – not by far. He just comes across as a creators’ pet.

Now if you want to be angry that the writers decided to have him fall for Emma and have Emma accept him, well then that’s perfectly reasonable.

Well, I was displeased when Emma accepted him, knowing his history and without much proof that he’d changed (that the audience could see). But as we keep reiterating in discussions about Hook, it’s not about the characters themselves but what they represent. Having Emma (and other characters) accept Hook and sweep his past misdeeds under the carpet romanticises toxic masculinity.

So it is a good thing that they are developing him into a better person. My issue is with how it is being done. It is too quick and easy and the situations feel contrived. Yes, I will agree with you that this pertains to other characters’ development as well. It comes down to poor writing. But I stick to my point that it is problematic that it is happening now, rather than three seasons ago. The order in which things happen matter. He was romanticised well before his behaviour merited it, and the redemption is coming almost as an afterthought.

Again, this all seems like bias opinions toward not liking Hook because of Neal.

You mention several times that SwanFire fans might be biased against Hook and hence downplay his good deeds. But it works both ways; CS and Hook fans will be biased in favour of Hook, and might be blinded to his flaws which are apparent to everyone else. In any case, you are committing the ad hominem logical fallacy in this argument. Just because SwanFire fans do not like Hook, it does not mean their criticisms are not on point.

It’s just really unfair to Hook I think.

I don’t think so. Since he’s a fictional character, it’s not exactly as if he’s being hurt. And if he were a real person, well, with the amount of blood he’s spilled, I don’t think anyone should feel obligated to forgive him. Same goes for the other villains. I started this discussion with you knowing perfectly well that we wouldn’t agree. But this episode was about Hook, this thread is about the episode and this forum is for discussion, so why not?

[nevermore]

Before this season and before Regina split herself, EVERYONE FORGAVE HER when she started doing good things.  She slaughtered an entire village for goodness sake.  She used light magic to save everybody from Zelena in 3b and from the second dark curse in season 3a.  And maybe not now, but a season or two ago, MOSTLY EVERYONE FORGAVE Rumple for his past actions as the dark one as soon as he started spilling to Belle how much he loved her.    MOSTLY EVERYONE FORGAVE Zelena after all the stuff she pulled (SHE KILLED NEAL!!!) just because she seemed like someone who actually cared about her child and she killed Hades and saved Regina and everyone for that matter.

See, I’m not sure who “everyone” is in your analysis. The GA? The fandom? People on this forum? From what I can tell, for most of these characters, people are split, and you’ll get both detractors and defenders across the spectrum. Now, is this forum a bit skewed against Hook? Yeah, there seem to be a lot of vocal critics here among the regulars. But he’s certainly not the only one. Plenty of people can’t stand Rumple and have no use for Zelena. Regina’s different a bit because her arc was so protracted. So “everyone” seems to be a bit too generalizing.

But let’s actually look at the in-story mechanics, and the reward system that’s inbuilt into the show itself. Villains, we were told, don’t get happy endings. In OUAT, “reward” is very often equated with getting to be with your romantic interest. Even our partially redeemed villains, like Regina and Zelena don’t get that. Robin and Hades are as dead as doornails, as far as we know. Those ships have sailed. You might say that Regina still gets to be with Henry and finds a family — true. But, in the OUAT-verse, that’s only a partial reward. Zelena gets Robyn, but again, that’s only a partial reward. Rumple’s extremely unlikely to end up with Belle, although the writers will keep yo-yoing those two to squeeze more drama out of it.

Anyway, this works fairly consistently with all our villains so far, except for Hook. Hook gets the girl. Not just that, but he gets the girl and the girl worries that her dying will rob him of his happy ending. His redemption arc, as @sciencevsmagic mentioned, is really done post factum, almost as an afterthought (or, more likely, as a result of audience feedback) and it’s, from a narrative standpoint, completely facile.

I know, this is a matter of how each person relates to a character, so there’s always a kind of bias. You’re right, if you’re a Rumple or Regina fan, you’re going to bat for them and rationalize their actions. But that’s different from how the writers are treating the characters, and what they are rewarding (and what they’re not).

So why am I singling Hook out? Two reasons: if you look at the writing, and the internal logic of villainy/redemption/reward, Hook is clearly the creator’s pet. If they wanted to be consistent, Emma would actually dump his butt. They could get back together eventually, but villains, on OUAT, even reformed ones, don’t get everything they want. Unless they’re Hook. And minimally, even if Emma forgives him, which is all fine and dandy, good on her — this shouldn’t be about his happy ending — it should be about hers. Because of what she happens to want. But just a few episodes ago she was wringing her hands over how her death might short-change Hook. So this brings me to my second reason of why I’m singling out Hook. It’s because, as @sciencevsmagic said, he embodies a particularly noxious form of masculinity: entitled, self-centered, and sexually aggressive. It’s not because he’s male, as you suggested — not all men, right? It’s because he’s an entitled bro, and I happen to dislike entitled bros. In part, because in the real world, that’s the sort of ‘character’ who tends to get off scott-free for all past misdeeds, as well as “get the girl” and all sorts of other social rewards and accolades. It’s also the type of character who, when held accountable for say, a sexual assault, gets people to defend him along the lines “but he’s got his whole life ahead of him, think of his athletic career, this would ruin him!”

Does that mean that such a person, and the character that stands for them, is absolutely irredeemable? Not necessarily. And in the hands of competent writers, I would actually be interested in seeing an effective and compelling redemption arc for a kind of social type that I personally find thoroughly loathsome. But what they’re doing doesn’t accomplish that.

[thedarkonedearie]

Does that mean that such a person, and the character that stands for them, is absolutely irredeemable? Not necessarily. And in the hands of competent writers, I would actually be interested in seeing an effective and compelling redemption arc for a kind of social type that I personally find thoroughly loathsome. But what they’re doing doesn’t accomplish that.

See I think putting Henry first over himself and saving Belle’s life (the wife of the man he used to hate and want to kill for revenge) is absolutely effective in getting Hook redeemed.  And as far as generalizing, it just seems that nobody on here hated that the writers were trying to redeem Regina for all her MURDERS and RAPING.  But because Hook is sexual by nature, and is also male (I’m sorry but I think this matters), his misdeeds are worse than murder and rape.  And yes, I know Hook killed people and his father but that’s not what you mentioned.  You mentioned he is an “entitled bro,” a title that cannot be given to a woman.  And you mention that these villains that they tried to redeem haven’t gotten what they wanted, except for Hook.  And yet, Regina has Henry and the love of her family who forgave her.  Rumple still has Belle somehow and a child on the way, and Zelena still has her child.  So why can’t Hook continue to have Emma?

Just because SwanFire fans do not like Hook, it does not mean their criticisms are not on point.

Absolutely you are right.  But if you’re going to have that opinion about Hook, it needs to be consistent with other characters who got redeemed and you had no problem with it.

Having Emma (and other characters) accept Hook and sweep his past misdeeds under the carpet romanticises toxic masculinity.

But Emma is choosing to be with him because she sees the good in Hook.  It was the same for Belle for YEARS.  Now she says “I see you for what you really are,” but for years that’s what she always said.  She always saw the good in Rumple, the man behind the beast.  So Emma can’t believe Hook can change because of his past deeds but Robin can believe it when he fell in love with Regina?  Belle can’t believe it when she fell for Rumple?  My problem is that you and others are inconsistent with this argument.  You say Emma choosing Hook is toxic masculinity and yet others characters have done this and they get SO MUCH MORE SLACK.  Again, because Emma left Neal for Hook, that is why, I think, Hook and Emma do not get that same slack.

[rainbow2]

MOSTLY EVERYONE FORGAVE Zelena after all the stuff she pulled (SHE KILLED NEAL!!!) just because she seemed like someone who actually cared about her child and she killed Hades and saved Regina and everyone for that matter

I usually dont get involve in this, but have to ask, who is Everyone? The fandom, nope, they dont, outside this forum, even tho Bex is liked by the fandom, most of the fandom thinks Zelena should not even be there, she should be dead or in jail, now if you mean the characters forgave Zelena, that only proves bad writing, in a real show, a murderer is a murderer even if she has kids or kills someone worst than her,she would go to jail, but that doesnt mean she should be forgiven and hang out with the family of the victim, in fact most of the characters should be in jail, being Henry the only one that still didnt kill or help kill someone.

Again, because Emma left Neal for Hook, that is why, I think, Hook and Emma do not get that same slack

I dont want this to became a ship war, bc 1st is not the thread to do it and 2nd this forum is good bc there are rules to avoid ship wars, but i have to ask, In which Episode Emma left Neal for Hook? They killed Neal before Emma making a choice, if the show had made Emma chose Hook and then kill Neal was one thing, but they didnt do it, they killed Neal and in doing that she got the other side of the triangle, without having to chose anything, there is no Emma left Neal for Hook, what happened was, They killed neal and then emma got to start something with hook, JMo even confirm it on a interview in S3 finale, she said if Neal was alive Emma would never move on to someone else, in this case Hook, even if Sf didnt worked, Emma Loved Neal to much to start a new relation with someone else if neal was still alive, she clearly said, neal died so that Emma could start dating someone else in this case hook, beware not my words, im using canon actors words, unless they reboot some past epis and added those scene of emma leaving neal for hook, in that case my bad.

Now i will end this, bc this is not a forum of ship wars, this is probably the more peaceful forum from ouat regarding that, also this discussion about hook will probably be better at his thread and most for respect to everyone on this forum, especially @RG and @MP.

[Author]

Posts