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When coming to the forums … I always love this thread . . . What were your FAVORITE AND LEAST FAVORITE MOMENTS from this episode 4X 11 HEROES AND VILLAINS . .
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.[adrotate group="5"]To be perfectly honest, I thought this episode was a bit dull until the end. It took forever to get somewhere and it was obvious that in some places they were just treading water to get to the big OOMPH at the end. There were some great scenes, but as a whole, there were MORE plot devices and more wonky things said and done. It wasn’t my favorite of the season nor my least favorite. I don’t think it was A and E’s finest season/mid season finale, either.
FAVORITE
–Rumple and Belle at the town line. I realized something during this scene–this scene that actually made me feel something for OUAT more than what I’ve been feeling for 11 episodes now—I still watch for Bobby. I’ve been struggling with an answer as to why I still watch or why I’m still invested and it’s Bobby. I hate and loathe with every fiber of my being what they’ve done to Rumple…but by god , Bobby knows how to sell it. That scene was perfect. Going down on his leg when he crossed over, once again broken…it reminded me of how much I loved Rumple once. For three years I’ve been RG–I’ve been Rumple’s Girl and lately I haven’t felt like I was Rumple’s anything. But that scene…that scene was almost like my Rumple. My Rumple that I once fought for and defended. He was ugly and scared and selfish and stupid and I don’t know how he comes back from this…but it made me feel something. And brava to Emilie. She nailed it. She was really something in that scene.
–FROZEN IS OVER. I’m sorry, while some of the actors were good, I really did not like the overall FROZEN ALL THE THINGS arc
–Regina making Robin go.
–Regina and Rumple scene in the car
–The stars in the clock tower were well done in terms of CGI
–The flashback was…okay? I have mixed feelings on this though. See below.
–PUPPY (but see below)
MIXED
–Flashback. Okay, confusion. 1) When in the name of sanity is this taking place? Because Belle was never supposed to leave the castle until he let her go in Skin Deep
–The Queen of Darkness. I liked Cruella but I do not NEED three villains. Good lord. It’s like kitchen sink writing with these guys.
–The resolution to Frozen. Happy to see them go but seriously? Plot device broom leads to plot device door?
DISLIKED
–The Hook’s heart resolution. Talk about fast. And Emma never even questioned why Rumple took his heart in the first place? Yes, hatred but why not “did Rumple have something on you?” And “what was up with that hat?” And “what was Rumple’s plan?” How about questioning Hook???
–Mal’s costume. Oy vey. Look. More Obvious Disney Marketing
–If that puppy is Cruella DeVil I will burn things to the ground.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Favorite:
Rumbelle Scene at the Town Line was the highlight of this episode….it was just….just wow.
Frozen Ending with Elsa and Anna, the “Chocolate”, the Original Arendelle Sisters Portrait, and them walking out hand in hand toward Anna’s wedding was very moving. Wonder if Disney will come back behind that somehow…
Rumple and Regina car scene…it just felt so much like a father daughter scene.
Everything OutlawQueen…but c’mon now…Death is seriously trying to take Marian out, I really wouldn’t be surprised if she died choking on a plum seed in the real world, like….Final Destination is just out for that woman. But I’ll bide my time for I know OutlawQueen shall rise again!
Mixed:
Much like @RG…I feel Maleficent could have stood her own ground for 4B, I love Cruella and Ursula, but I now feel a little bit Disney Overwhelmed….but we’ll see where it goes.
Dislike:
No real dislike…just a little upset Roland didn’t get to say goodbye to Regina, that’s about it.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
This was a very…different episode. Since Season 3B, I’ve noticed that the last episode of the arc just draws on the major themes of the entire half-season, since the actual plot ended in 4×10, “Shattered Sight.” That said, I couldn’t really think of anything to say about this episode other than, “…Okay?”
Favorite Moments:
1. I liked the good-bye scene for the Frozen characters. Whether or not they should’ve been in the story itself, they were well-cast and had some cool relationships with the main cast (some cooler than others, i.e. Emma/Elsa was better than Anna/David).
2. Regina’s understanding at the Marian circumstance. At this point two seasons ago, we would’ve seen the Gates of Hell open if someone tried taking happiness away from Regina (which, if I may remind you, we almost did), so it’s nice to see a different reaction.
3. Henry showing Emma and Regina the Secret Writer’s Room. The Operation Mongoose arc has been my saving grace of the season, so I’m glad to see a positive development in it, especially since it signifies that we could have an actual author! Plus, I like that Regina was happy to let Emma join Operation Mongoose. It shows how developed their friendship is.
4. The scene between Rumple and Regina. While it bugged me that it felt that Rumple was putting up a personality front, I liked his overall message to Regina – you can’t force someone to give you a happy ending, you have to take one and make it your own.
5. BELLE! She felt very left out of S4, so I was really happy to see her doing things that advance plot. She broke off her relationship to Rumple, and I’m glad that she realized it had to be done.
6. Rumple on a bus! I was laughing my butt off at that.
Least Favorite Moments:
1. The introduction to the “Queens of Darkness.” First, I hate the term. None of them are queens (one is a goddess, the other is a mistress, and the final one is an obsessed lunatic). Second, it was never established that Mal had accomplices. She always seemed like someone who worked alone, and this episode made it seem like she couldn’t do anything without Cruella and Ursula. I mean, I’m sure she wouldn’t have failed defeating Aurora and her mother if she had her other “Queens” had helped.
Also, I really didn’t like Ursula. She, more than the other two, felt like a spoiled brat who didn’t get what she wanted and is now throwing a fit on a grand scale. Plus, the effects on her tentacles were…jarring.
And Cruella is a shape-shifting Dalmation. That’s like taking the crazy out of character’s personality and injecting it into her concept. How wonderful.
2. The final Arendelle scene. I feel like we had a nice sendoff to the characters, so the wedding day scene felt out of place.
3. I’m really annoyed at the fact that we don’t have any clear motivation for what Rumple was trying to do other than, “GIVE ME ULTIMATE POWER AND I’LL GIVE YOU WORLD DOMINATION. MWAHAHAHA!” Again, it really cemented the fact that his character development was retconned. I mean, I understand that he was a slave to Zelena. However, he still felt remorse for his actions while being enslaved (as evidenced by his apologies to Robin when he needed to get Regina’s heart). Now, he “doesn’t have time for everyone else.” S3!Rumple =/= S4A Rumple.
4. Cruella is a shape-shifting Dalmation. I cannot stop laughing at the stupidity of this concept.
Overall, this wasn’t a terrible episode. I liked it better than others in the arc and I do enjoy the idea of exploring what it means to be a hero and a villain. However, compared to the drama of 3×11 and how it felt like a conclusion, this episode felt like, “How many different Disney characters can we cram into one episode?” On the bright side, I have hope for an actual author!
Keeper of Thor’s Hammer, Will Scarlet’s Genie Bottle, Emma’s Gun, Emma and Henry’s Moment at the Castle, Cora, and the infamous Family Tree!
Everything OutlawQueen…but c’mon now…Death is seriously trying to take Marian out, I really wouldn’t be surprised if she died choking on a plum seed in the real world, like….Final Destination is just out for that woman. But I’ll bide my time for I know OutlawQueen shall rise again!
ONLY IF SEAN is contracted after the movie he is filming… I would think.
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.Many people have said that this episode was slow or dull. I actually prefer the slower ones as they leave time for character moments instead of plot! plot! plot hole! plot device! plot! This episode stood on a half season (or more) of plot holes, but taken by itself it was a lovely episode. 7/10.
My favorite part was finding the library shelves stacked with books with blank pages. Belle and Rumple at the town line was also a great scene. Wicked Regal spotted Robin ”stealing” Regina’s ring. It was a nice touch and it would give him something to remember her by. Also, if the two were ever to be reunited, perhaps the ring will play a part in that. I also noticed that the graphics for Rumple’s castle was slightly better.
I am not liking Ursula and Cruella de Vil. I think Maleficient by herself would have been enough. Also, how did they figure out that pushing people over the line will prevent them from returning? They based this assumption on…what? It turned out to be correct, but how did they know? Another thing, how the heck did Belle get between Rumple and Emma in the clock tower? Is there another door? Or did she creep slowly up the stairs before Emma and Snow arrived and shouted out? Also how did Emma, Snow or Belle know to get to the clock tower? Anna did not tell the Charmings were Rumple was, and as far as we know the spell wasn’t visable from the outside, and even if it was there was not enough time between the spell hovering over their heads and Emma and Snow appearing from the elevator.???????
I don’t think the remnants of the spell will stay up forever. The three villains will find themselves in SB with Rumple, no doubt, and this will allow Robin to come back as well, with Marian and Roland.
I am also curious to find out how the Queens of Darkness ended up outside of SB. The sorcerer’s portal? Did they come via the second dark curse and cross the town line between 3B and Elsa’s wall going up?
Over the weekend (or was it Friday?) I had theorized that Regina will team up with the Queens of Darkness to find the ”author” of the book and help them get their happy endings. Once she and Mal are done pulling each others hair out, perhaps she will promise to get their Happy Endings to make it up to them or to prevent them from causing more trouble (”if you don’t get our happy ending we will do xyz to take it for ourselves” etc)? This might leave 4B without a true villain, but it could be Rumple now that Emma etc found out his dastardly plan which included crushing Hook’s heart. Also, protagonists don’t need a villain to create the problem in a story. The ”problem” can also be a new goal, the journey they take to achieve it, and whether or not they achieve it. In this ep, Emma, the protagonist, said that she will join Regina on her quest. This is a further hint that 4B will have a quest or goal, rather than a villain or villains to defeat.
EDIT
It still wasn’t clear what Rumple’s motivations were with our world. He wanted to keep his power and be free of the dagger (because he loves his power) while handing the world to Belle on a plate, I think. It seems that the back story was showing Belle’s appetite for exploring and knowing the whole world, and this is what he wanted to give her, maybe.
Keeper of Regina's bravery
Many people have said that this episode was slow or dull. I actually prefer the slower ones as they leave time for character moments instead of plot! plot! plot hole! plot device! plot! This episode stood on a half season (or more) of plot holes, but taken by itself it was a lovely episode. 7/10.
Oh, I like slow character driven episodes too but there is a difference between slow and character building and just “let’s do nothing but stand around and rehash all our plans”
Like, I know that Rumple is going to cleave (twitch) himself from the dagger. I know that Rumple doesn’t want Belle and Anna to meet. I know all these things that they keep taking up time with because it “treads water”
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Many people have said that this episode was slow or dull. I actually prefer the slower ones as they leave time for character moments instead of plot! plot! plot hole! plot device! plot! This episode stood on a half season (or more) of plot holes, but taken by itself it was a lovely episode. 7/10.
Oh, I like slow character driven episodes too but there is a difference between slow and character building and just “let’s do nothing but stand around and rehash all our plans” Like, I know that Rumple is going to cleave (twitch) himself from the dagger. I know that Rumple doesn’t want Belle and Anna to meet. I know all these things that they keep taking up time with because it “treads water”
Not a fan of Downton Abbey, then? lol
Keeper of Regina's bravery
Liked:
Belle. She was amazing. What the heck were they doing cutting all her scenes this season? I think the whole thing would have been so much more powerful (not that it wasn’t absolutely devastating) if Belle had been present for more than three out of ten episodes preceding this.
The Rumbelle fanfic flashback was just full of all the things that Rumbellers collectively have headcanoned about this period in their lives…and it was perfect. I loved it. It worked for me that the three villainesses joined up to go against Rumple though the Plot Device Glove bothers me for reasons below.
Belle’s clothes. Mmm.
Belle Saving The Day, saving Hook and the rest of the town from what she feared was happening.
BELLE AND HENRY. Grandma Belle. (Am so hoping she’s the next recruit to Operation Mongoose…hey, she might get to write her own happy ending with Rumple then?)
Operation Mongoose hitting paydirt.
The return of the walking broom. I’m sorry, it’s zany but I LOVE that thing.
Robin (sort of) choosing Marian. And Regina letting him make the Right Choice.
And that scene with Belle & Rumple at the town line…so…so hard to watch. Such a good performance from both of them. All the awards. Now hurry up and find a way to win her back, you stupid imp.
Disliked:
I’m really happy to see Mal & Ursula return since they’re already part of the show’s canon and I want to see things like Hook’s backstory with Mal, BUT…it just feels a bit over the top to bring in three new villains to play like this…can’t we explore the book or spend some time comforting Belle after she SAVES THE DAY by saying goodbye FOREVER for the…umpteenth time…to her true love?
On that note, why is it that save for one moment with Archie in Dark Hollow, nobody EVER comforts Belle? I get that they don’t like Rumple but they’re all supposed to be her friends.
Did Belle tell Emma what she did with Gold? Sure sounded like Emma might know when she cheered Regina up with that…but we don’t get to know, do we, because it’s Belle…
The whole episode felt a little crammed to me, too…
and my biggest complaint: Belle never got to see Anna. She never even got close. Instead of using the OBVIOUS trail that they set up from the start of the episode, that would involve character interaction–rewarding character interaction given that Belle and Anna MET IN THE PAST–they use the stupid Brand New Shiny Gauntlet of Plot Devicing to have Belle work things out. Even if they were going to disappoint on the Anna & Belle meeting front (which is really harsh anyway, at least let Belle know Anna’s okay and going home after she has a BREAKDOWN over what she did to her)…they could have had Hook somehow signal Belle. That would have involved A&E’s favorite character AND allowed him and Belle to exhibit their traits–his survival instinct and wit and her intelligence and “ability” to see people’s hearts. Either of those would have been more satisfying to me than using the brand new shiny magical plot device object, and…they had all the pieces RIGHT THERE. I can only conclude they didn’t go that route because they seem allergic to giving Belle screentime. And that sucks, because yeah, I know I identify with her and so I’m always going to be more moved by her, but dang…Emilie’s acting this season in the few moments she got has just been TOTALLY able to keep up with Bobby’s and DANG they’re wasting so much talent. And story. And angst and drama that could have come from all that.
I therefore hate the gauntlet. We never even got to SEE it in use…it was just THERE.
But…once I pick up the shattered pieces of my heart…I shall probably think of this as a good episode, if only for the fluffy flashback.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
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