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So happy to be having a civil discussion about SwanFire! As much as I have issues with them at times, I do get the appeal and the more I hear of what I consider legitimate arguments, the happier I am with having to face the possibility should it happen. I’ll love the show no matter what though.
I was asked about my issues with it not too long ago and after giving them saw that the person asking the questions told someone that CSers only like it cause we think Colin is hotter than MRJ and that we all hate Neal because he left Emma in jail (which is nothing remotely like what I said or feel) so I appreciate having actual discussions on the topic without throwing mud and calling fans delusional because both sides really do have points. We’re all entitled to our opinions and preferences but nothing is set in stone yet and as long as it is still up for debate, it should be up for *civil* debate as well.
We are all Oncers and want our favorite characters to be happy! We just have different ideas of how to get them to that point, that’s all. It doesn’t mean that any of us think couples we have seen on the show are not legitimate. I may argue the finer points of whether I define SF as a couple *right now* but they’ve still been shown on the show as a couple. The thing that started this whole debate was what the list included and its classifications because either it was 1 couple too long/few short or a great many too short. I do believe they are all “legitimate” though – hopefully there wasn’t any confusion on that point. It was all about the classification system for me. They are certainly an important legit couple on the show in that they have been shown to us at one point in time as a couple, but they haven’t been put on a shortlist of proven TLs yet, nor are they a couple *currently*
I haven’t gotten to do my season rewatch yet and I’m hoping with all of these things in mind that I will see more of the positive stuff everyone seems to be enjoying about Neal – I find I do like him when it’s not specifically a SF moment post-Tallahassee and I do genuinely feel for the character and what he has been through. I certainly don’t celebrate when he gets hurt or want anything bad to happen to him. He’s been through a LOT!
I’m hesitant to say anything is definite this early but I like understanding the other side of things, especially since most of my Oncer friends, mostly around here, are on the other side. The more screentime these guys get, and the more fleshed out their stories are, the more we will have to go on and the more opportunity to fall in love with them and appreciate them more / think of them as viable options for Emma – and I do think both have a chance for sure.
I am happy to hear that some are at least a little more open to Hook now and about as equally open to the idea of CS as I am to SF – both of these guys grow on you after awhile and my hope is that by the time they’re all reunited, the audience is a little more torn / at least a sliver open to the other side happening so it’s not such a knock-down, drag-out fight all the time – if only so that everyone can understand Emma’s dilemma and difficulty choosing. SO sick of the mud-slinging directed at fans for having a difference of opinion! Every character/pairing deserves to have passionate fans, they’re all awesome – though I could do without GOAT.
I will agree that Emma does wait til the last second to say how she feels and I’m not discounting those instances and I’m not saying she doesn’t have feelings for Neal. They share a past and a son and he has clearly affected the rest of her life. The only question I have about that declaration between them is how much of it is real and how much of it is the idea of it based on what it used to be. After such a long time, either could be true. H&K keep reminding us that they do have feelings for one another, but it is entirely possible to love someone without being in love with them, especially when lots of time has passed. I understand why some celebrate Emma saying ILY at the portal and others aren’t phased by it because she does love him but it could be closure and not that she’s in love with him and will never love again. Everyone has a different filter and I understand both arguments as she does love him (& H&K remind us of this a lot).
I’ll agree that Neal has a huge mixed bag of emotions and has put himself into a rotten place. He didn’t believe that Emma could forgive him and right when he was about to have a chance to try and fix things he chose to move on. Regardless of his reasons or lack of confidence, he didn’t choose to go after Emma and he didn’t say he loved her until after Tamara was an option so I feel like from EMMA’s point of view after that, he chose Tamara over her – against his real feelings but in that case the situation was bad for all three of them.
I get why he did it and that there are definitely a lot of emotions involved in all of it. I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.
In not going after her because he was afraid, he didn’t take into account her feelings and wonder how much damage he had done to her. Even if she hated him when she saw him again and asked him to leave after explaining why he did so, they could have found closure on what happened – he would have had a chance to get it off his chest why he let her go and she would have found out what really happened. He clearly knew that finding her family was important to her and he wanted her to have that. That explanation would have been fine if he did that the moment he could.
The fact that it took her finding him I think is what bugs her the most. She wouldn’t have ever gotten that closure. He may have been fine to never try to go after her and live in his misery and try to make a life with Tamara instead, but he didn’t try to give Emma the peace of mind about what really happened either. It’s not fun to confront someone when you’re expecting them to hate you, but he did have good reasons for what he did and he should have at least tried to put himself in her shoes, especially knowing what it felt like – and he had centuries to remember his mother choosing not to take him with her.
Which is what brings me back to the conversation in Manhattan where he did tell her what happened with Pinocchio but still wanted her to go and quickly so that Rumple wouldn’t find him. I suppose at this point he had already made up his mind about not going to find her and had chosen to move on and I commend him for sticking to that even though Tamara is EVIL, but he didn’t even confirm that he loved her too back then but just felt that it was the right thing to do, even when she told him how much it hurt because she loved him so much (and she was so obviously hurt and pouring out her heart about her feelings from back then and he never backed that up).
Again, I do appreciate that he was in a bad place and didn’t think he had a shot but it’s that lack of faith in them as a couple that is so infuriating to me. Other couples on the show have proven to us that they would do whatever it takes for the ones they love, where he continues to leave (or sacrifice himself in some way) absolutely everyone. It’s all he knows and he hasn’t had the best role models, but every time someone offers him a family, he ends up leaving it one way or another. It makes sense that he was trying to hold on to Tamara, especially since had promised her everything he’s always wanted and up to that point she hadn’t done anything wrong. He certainly couldn’t see Emma’s jealousy and then kick Tamara to the curb. It’s the lack of faith in the first place that upsets me.
Emma has a hard time letting anyone in because she’s been abandoned and it took her a long time with Snowing but she got there so there’s definitely hope. I think one of the uphill climbs will be that she IS back around Snowing. She knows their story and saw them fight (and continue to fight) to be together no matter what. Charming’s “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” and “I will always find you” and watching her parents fight SO hard to be together makes anybody who hasn’t fought pale in comparison. Whether that’s fair or not doesn’t change the fact that that’s what she’s seeing in front of her. She’s surrounded by and is the product of TL and sees how it works and in some aspects, it’s the exact opposite of her relationship with Neal.
David screwed up but got his Charming memories back right before leaving town. He could have sat there and said “well, Snow will never forgive me for the Kathryn/Abigail thing, better leave now” and instead chose to have *faith* and *trust* in their relationship and that they could overcome anything. Emma witnessed all of this. She even says way back in 1×06 “It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actually make a choice.” Emma fights for those she loves, just like Charming does, and I think she’ll have a hard time accepting this so quickly with him saying that he was too afraid to try so just didn’t. That’s not how real, true love looks to her at this point in her life because she’s seen it and knows what it can be.
She’s had her moments of weakness and almost leaving (just like Charming and Hook and Neal) but the difference is that Charming got to the edge of town and Emma got to the edge of town and Hook had his ship almost out of sight but they all came back and fought for Snow and Henry and Hook came back to help save a town full of people who hated and betrayed him (on behalf of Emma and Bae). Neal knew when he could come back and fight for it when Emma would have her family back and everything would be alright and he chose not to – that is a stark difference for me.
Charming had no problem waiting 28 years, Hook’s been waiting centuries to avenge the woman he loved and was fine with waiting the 28 years in that dome thing Cora put up, and Neal had to wait what, 12? and chose not to try to make it work. Emma’s been fighting for family her whole life and has finally found it and will now fight for them no matter what. All Neal had of family at this point was Emma and the dream of the life they wanted to have together and promised her that dream and then left (for good reasons) and never went back when it was safe to do so and explain that. Choosing to stay with Tamara is admirable because he did promise her a life too, but that was giving up on the dream of the life he promised to Emma from before – a dream that left her searching for him for 2 years in Tallahassee.
Emma fought tooth and nail for Henry to save him. She told Rumple that she would go even farther than it takes because that’s who she is, she fights and fights hard no matter what. I’m not sure if she’s wired to understand people who walk away when they say they want something, especially knowing what it feels like to be abandoned. In fact I think it hurts her more because one of the things that really tied her with Neal is the fact that they were both abandoned and wanted to save each other from being alone. To have someone who knows what it feels like do that to her was excruciating and the last straw before her walls went up. It seemed, (from the brief highlight reel that we got in Tallahassee) that she opened up to him fairly quickly and I’m sure that common bond was a huge part of it. That would have been a huge slap in the face, regardless of the reasons, but the reasons would have helped. That quote to MM from back in S1 about wanting something vs choosing to do something about it speaks volumes to me about Emma’s character which is why I have trouble believing she’d be so OK with this so quickly *at this point.*
My point about being 2nd choice is that I agree on Neal’s side that Emma was his first choice, but he gave up on that first choice, moved on to choice #2 and choice #2 is what Emma is seeing in front of her. She’s seeing Neal side with Tamara on everything, even though she thinks he’s lying to her about never believing in her lying ability. If Emma truly thinks that Neal did believe in her ability, and she did call him out on that, then she is left with knowing he knows he should side with her and at least question it and is choosing to defend Tamara to the bitter end and ignore everything he ever knew or trusted of Emma. WE know that he didn’t really have a choice but this is all that Emma sees and that’s gotta hurt. So I didn’t really mean that Emma IS the second choice, but that she may feel like it even if she does believe he cared about her the whole time. His actions speak differently.
I realize there wasn’t a lot of time between finding out that Tamara was up to no good and the ILYs since the two events happened back to back thanks to the portal. I do however feel that it rushed everything and there wasn’t a lot of build up to that moment. There was obvious jealousy along the way, but as much as Emma waits til the last second to declare feelings, it still seemed VERY rushed to me for SF given that it was immediately after Neal’s relationship with Tamara ended (and very badly and not by Neal’s choice). I didn’t see that coming and felt a lack of build up to make that moment really payoff and seem legitimate for the people they are today and not just the idea of what they once were. If anything it felt more like closure than the start of something, especially since they both basically acknowledged the idea he was about to die. It felt like they were finally BOTH admitting that they felt something for each other once and this was their goodbye, without having to address any of the issues along the way because they did genuinely have feelings and it was nice to finally hear him say that he felt that way too.
I’m sure it will be brought up to help them move forward when he returns because he’ll use that to point out she should go easier on him, like he did with the necklace (and we still haven’t seen one word about the car *shakes head*) so it’ll be a starting point, but I don’t think things will be swept under the rug as quickly once it’s clear he’s alive and well. She’ll be happy to see him, but so far her main concern has been zeroed in on Henry (how to tell him about Neal, and then him being kidnapped) and that takes priority over any romantic feelings (and she’s excellent at pushing anything emotional to the side indefinitely).
I’m really really hopeful that we see him fighting really hard to come after her and get back to his family and that it makes me want to root for him with her more. I like the character and have hope for him, my issues truly just stem around his relationship with Emma. The only time I’ve ever felt like he actually fought for her was when he went back to the apartment and interrupted Rumple. He did have a sword and fight side by side with her in Gold’s shop, but he jumped out of the way and Charming jumped in front of Emma when a fireball was thrown her way.
I’m not sure how many obstacles they can endure when everything so far was mostly against the things that Emma seems to need in her life as it stands today (her needs were very different as a teenager). Their relationship in the past was sweet, but I feel like they’re different people now and the Emma that we’ve gotten to know over the last couple of seasons isn’t the same girl she was when she was with Neal. At times I feel like Emma would be reverting when she’s so awesome as the person she is now. When Emma thought about running away from all the craziness in SB, MM said the following in 1×21: “And running is what’s best for him [Henry]? Or is that what’s best for you? You’re reverting, Emma, into the person you were before you got here; and I thought you’d changed.” Which to me says “I thought you were better than that and you’re just becoming the person you were before” and that’s basically how I feel *currently* going back to Neal without much fuss would come across. It’s a sweet story if they can find their way back, I just need it to be realistic. The real world is not a fairy tale and Emma spent 99% of her life in the real world. Her life is not as cut & dried as some of the others are.
They also seem to me to want different things other than to be in Henry’s life and I really do believe that they are different people now and need to learn to co-exist for Henry’s sake. Maybe there will be something more and maybe there won’t. Right now for me, they still love each other and a part of them always will, I’m just not sure it’s really past the *idea* of loving each other at this point – and trust me, the idea of loving someone hurts just as much and feels just as real at the time. Emma thinking he’s dead may lighten her up a bit on some of these things, especially the stuff prior to Manhattan. With her walls up though, mostly because of him, I don’t see her forgetting everything else, especially after what Tamara almost did to the town and has now done to her son. It’s gotta hurt her that of all the people he could move on with to replace her while saying he was in love with her the whole time, it had to be Tamara.
They have an uphill climb but it’s certainly not impossible. I think Emma has gotten closure on the past stuff and it’s more present day that will be an issue. I agree with H&K that they do still have feelings for each and I really feel that a part of Emma will always love Neal no matter what which is why he was so influential on her. I don’t see that going away, especially with him being Henry’s father. I just also don’t see that as confirmation yet that he’s her true love and they’re meant to be together. The show has proven that Henry needs his entire dysfunctional family and contrary to some opinions, that Henry needs all of them including both Emma AND Regina. (I can’t stand the argument that they have to be together for Henry’s sake – be in love for being in love’s sake, not because Henry exists, that’s not healthy for anyone. Likewise, Emma grew up in the real world and with that in mind, Henry is super lucky to have everyone in his life to begin with, considering how much they hate each other. The fact that his parents are at least currently separated but both in his life and willing to work together on his behalf is more than most kids in the real world get so hopefully, even if it stays that way, he will learn to be satisfied with that as it it may be all that Emma has to offer him).
I have faith in the writers that with more screentime, the more we know the better I’ll like them. They’ve set up a great triangle and I see compelling arguments for both sides and it should be interesting to watch it play out. I’d like to think that at the end, we’ll all be able to root for Emma’s true love story because it will be epic and beautiful and shown to us enough that it’s obvious and none of these lingering issues remain and I think that will be the case. I truly do see the appeal of both sides, I just have a preference that is somewhat unpopular around here.
So glad we can have these civil debates though. I’m sick of being lumped in with airheads that just think Colin is hotter than MRJ and therefore can’t imagine him with anyone other than Emma *eye roll* (We all have our reasons to ship and I can’t stand superficial reasons – I don’t just love CS because I have issues with SF and therefore need someone else for Emma to be with. Likewise, I don’t ship Neal off just to get rid of him to pave a path for CS to happen. I like having backups just in case so I don’t get my hopes up too high, and I ship because I see potential and loveliness in something with actual reasons, not for my health – and certainly not to be constantly attacked for loving something. Believe me, it would be much easier if I were madly in love with SF!)
The Snowing/Abigail triangle was obvious, the MAP triangle *should* be obvious as a TLK woke Aurora up etc. It seems odd to me that if we’re supposed to be rooting for SF to get back together and watch them overcome obstacles like the other “set in stone” couples that have also been in triangles, that they would put such a great option in there that has lots of potential and make people fall in love with the pairing only to ditch it because Neal’s “alive” – which frankly isn’t a reason – but since they like to throw curveballs I really just don’t know (and contrary to some opinions, nobody else knows either except for H&K).
Emma’s is the one love story that we can see play out and not officially know who it will be because we haven’t grown up knowing her story. I certainly don’t think either side of the triangle is delusional and (sadly) both sides have reason to have high hopes which means some will be very hurt in the end. I hope eventually that they all find happiness and that fans of both men will be happy with who they end up with (as difficult as it is to imagine at the moment).
[adrotate group="5"]Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
*hands Kat’s magic mice a mountain of cheese.* Poor babies, I think that was the longest one yet. 😆 😀
I briefly skimmed the debate and I guess I’ll add in my two cents:
For me it’s Neal and Emma because, simply, I like Neal more. I relate to him more. I actually relate to him a lot (and also Emma). I think he’s easily my second favorite male character. I understand his very complex emotions because I do/feel a lot of the same things.
But I also appreciate the obvious chemistry and connection of CS. It has nothing to do with the fact that “Colin is hotter than MRJ” (dumbest thing I’ve ever heard…and personally I find MRJ to be very swoon worthy.)
Would I be sad if it turns out to be CS over SF, sure. But you know what I want more than anything? A healthy, happy, complete Emma. She is my very favorite female character and I understand her a lot and I just want her happy."He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@MysteryKat25 wrote:
I was asked about my issues with it not too long ago and after giving them saw that the person asking the questions told someone that CSers only like it cause we think Colin is hotter than MRJ
Well for the record, SwanFire may be my endgame, but I’m in lust with Colin, not MRJ, so there goes that theory. 😉
We’re all entitled to our opinions and preferences but nothing is set in stone yet and as long as it is still up for debate, it should be up for *civil* debate as well.
We are all Oncers and want our favorite characters to be happy! We just have different ideas of how to get them to that point, that’s all.
Very true!
I will agree that Emma does wait til the last second to say how she feels and I’m not discounting those instances and I’m not saying she doesn’t have feelings for Neal. They share a past and a son and he has clearly affected the rest of her life. The only question I have about that declaration between them is how much of it is real and how much of it is the idea of it based on what it used to be. After such a long time, either could be true. H&K keep reminding us that they do have feelings for one another, but it is entirely possible to love someone without being in love with them, especially when lots of time has passed. I understand why some celebrate Emma saying ILY at the portal and others aren’t phased by it because she does love him but it could be closure and not that she’s in love with him and will never love again. Everyone has a different filter and I understand both arguments as she does love him (& H&K remind us of this a lot).
Even as a SF shipper, I don’t believe that that ILY was cut and dried. I just happen to have faith that their initial falling in love all those years ago is enough of a basis for them to build on. It’s not really either of their fault that their time together was interrupted. They were in a bizarre, unique, magically influenced situation, it wasn’t just a standard breakup where someone in the relationship screws it up and it ends. Their relationship was manipulated by outside forces, (which I’m now thinking ties back to THO, (and therfore to PP’s plans to get Henry), because I think they’re the ones who sent August to break them up), so I can’t apply real life breakup rules to their situation. IRL, if a guy allows his girlfriend to go to jail for him, I’d think he was an A grade irredeemable douchebag, but this situation is entirely different IMO.
I look at it more as though they were put on pause, and only now is the time drawing near where they’ll be able to move forward again. They won’t be able to pick up directly where they left off, because they have baggage galore, but given the uniqueness of their situation and their breakup, I believe they’ll be able to reconcile what happened, understand that it was unavoidable, and finally fully explore the possibilites of their love, moving forward.
I’ll agree that Neal has a huge mixed bag of emotions and has put himself into a rotten place. He didn’t believe that Emma could forgive him and right when he was about to have a chance to try and fix things he chose to move on. Regardless of his reasons or lack of confidence, he didn’t choose to go after Emma and he didn’t say he loved her until after Tamara was an option so I feel like from EMMA’s point of view after that, he chose Tamara over her – against his real feelings but in that case the situation was bad for all three of them.
Emma absolutely would have felt like he was choosing Tamara over her. But I also believe that that whole time, part of her believed that he had to still feel something for her too, because she knew her own heart and how connected she still felt to him, so surely he must still feel something for her in return. And after all that intense hoping of her part, finally, “I love you.” If I were in her position, I wouldn’t be holding a grudge against him, I’d just be elated that the truth was finally out there.
I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.
In not going after her because he was afraid, he didn’t take into account her feelings and wonder how much damage he had done to her.
I think he undoubtedly knew that he’d damaged her, and feared that if they made contact again, it would only serve to damage her more, which is the last thing he wanted to have happen. Maybe when he found that pic of Milah back on Hook’s ship, it ripped that wound right open for him and hurt like hell as though it had only just happened, and he was trying to spare Emma that same pain. Easier to leave wounds like that scabbed over and in the past.
Speaking of children being separated from their parents and that meaning that they should be compassionate enough to not do that to other people…let’s not forget that Emma had no intention of reuniting Nealfire and Henry. She was 100% prepared to let Henry go on thinking that his father was dead, without even giving him the choice of getting to know him if he wanted to.
The fact that it took her finding him I think is what bugs her the most.
I also think it would have been particularly frustrating for her to find him like this, because she spent two years in Tallahassee, no doubt looking for him, and she never found him. But now THIS is how they run into each other again? Like, c’mon, are you serious?!
Which is what brings me back to the conversation in Manhattan where he did tell her what happened with Pinocchio but still wanted her to go and quickly so that Rumple wouldn’t find him. I suppose at this point he had already made up his mind about not going to find her and had chosen to move on and I commend him for sticking to that even though Tamara is EVIL, but he didn’t even confirm that he loved her too back then but just felt that it was the right thing to do, even when she told him how much it hurt because she loved him so much (and she was so obviously hurt and pouring out her heart about her feelings from back then and he never backed that up).
Again, I do appreciate that he was in a bad place and didn’t think he had a shot but it’s that lack of faith in them as a couple that is so infuriating to me.
Nealfire had had approximately 5 minutes to process what was going on at that point in time, so I can’t fault any brain meltdown he may have been experiencing during the conversation in the bar. Frankly I give him props for not having just been curled up in the corner, rocking back and forth, because that’s totally what I’d have been like. There was much stuttering and stammering from him right after Emma said she’d loved him. I imagine that his inner dialogue in that moment went something like, (except with every second word being an expletive): “Oh crap, she said the L word, it’s been so long since I heard her say that to me, I wanna say it back, because Lord knows I’ve never stopped loving her, but Tamara, I can’t go throwing around words like “love” with Emma and dredge all of that up when I’m supposed to be 100% committed to Tamara now, ohcrapohcrapohcraaaaap what do I say to that?!” and it came out like a feeble, “I… I was, um… I was… I was trying to help you.”
Not long after Emma left him there, when he’d had a few moments to actually collect his thoughts, he was able to man up and go after her, knowing full well that he’d also have to face his father, which was the absolute last thing he wanted to do, but he did it for her.
Other couples on the show have proven to us that they would do whatever it takes for the ones they love, where he continues to leave (or sacrifice himself in some way) absolutely everyone. It’s all he knows and he hasn’t had the best role models, but every time someone offers him a family, he ends up leaving it one way or another.
And considering that one of the few things he remembers about his father is him saying, “Everything that happens, happens by design, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Forces greater than us conspire to make it happen. Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it,” maybe after all this time, he believes he’s doomed to always end up alone and it’s squeezed almost all of the hope out of him.
Emma has a hard time letting anyone in because she’s been abandoned and it took her a long time with Snowing but she got there so there’s definitely hope. I think one of the uphill climbs will be that she IS back around Snowing. She knows their story and saw them fight (and continue to fight) to be together no matter what. Charming’s “What’s 28 years when you have eternal love?” and “I will always find you” and watching her parents fight SO hard to be together makes anybody who hasn’t fought pale in comparison. Whether that’s fair or not doesn’t change the fact that that’s what she’s seeing in front of her. She’s surrounded by and is the product of TL and sees how it works and in some aspects, it’s the exact opposite of her relationship with Neal.
If 28 years is nothing when you have eternal love, then what’s 11 years? 😉 Seriously though, Snowing would have been separated under similar circumstances to what SwanFire were: Emma had to be the Saviour, there was no choice in the matter, in both cases, there had be a separation between people who loved each other in order for Emma to fulfill her destiny. Her parents were willing to suffer it, and Nealfire did suffer it. So if she can accept that her parents would have been strong enough to survive it if they’d had to go through with it, then why couldn’t the same apply to her and Nealfire?
This is why I’m so looking forward to seeing how SF deal with their issues, because on the one hand, it’s a valid point that he ran away from her instead of staying and fighting(*), but at the same time, what I’ve said above holds true. There is no black and white with these two and their relationship, there are all sorts of factors and points of view and decisions good and bad that need to be considered.
* “Fighting” can be defined in different ways. It can certainly mean that he should have told August to get stuffed, because he was gonna stand by Emma no matter what and no one and nothing would tear them apart. But it can also mean that he was willing to make the impossible decision to leave, because he was fighting for her to ultimately get back to her family.
David screwed up but got his Charming memories back right before leaving town. He could have sat there and said “well, Snow will never forgive me for the Kathryn/Abigail thing, better leave now” and instead chose to have *faith* and *trust* in their relationship and that they could overcome anything.
Well, I can’t personally draw a parallel between these two circumstances, just because the breaking of the curse and them all getting their memories back was such an exceptional circumstance. He and Snow had already been interacting for quite some time as David Nolan and MM, they’d been carrying on a romantic relationship, and suddenly he understood why they’d been drawn together, despite Kathryn and his desire to be a decent man. So of course he needed to see her again immediately, if not sooner. He needed to see his Snow, instead of seeing MM.
Emma witnessed all of this. She even says way back in 1×06 “It’s one thing to say that he wants you but it’s another to actually make a choice.”
If she’s big on people who make tough choices…well, Nealfire did that. Granted, his choice complicated her life greatly, but he did have the balls to make the impossible choice and follow through with it, for the greater good of everyone in SB.
Emma fights for those she loves, just like Charming does, and I think she’ll have a hard time accepting this so quickly with him saying that he was too afraid to try so just didn’t. That’s not how real, true love looks to her at this point in her life because she’s seen it and knows what it can be.
Emma hasn’t had anyone to fight for except herself for most of her life. Same could be said for Nealfire. They were fighting for each other when they first met, before it all went to crap. Emma has now become integrated into the SB community and her family, so now she has a bunch of people to fight for, and yes, she’ll get the job done no matter what, coz she’s the hero, and that’s how heroes roll.
Nealfire hasn’t been a part of this family for very long, he hasn’t had people to fight for for very long, but now that he does, and he’s in a desperate situation, this will be his real opportunity to prove how desperately he wants to fight to get back to her. If he manages to accomplish that, even though they’re currently separated in different worlds, that will show Emma that he’s here now, and he’s not backing away from her again.
Nealfire’s current situation may end up leaving him with a new perspective on what his father went through in the desperate search for a way to get from FTL to our world to find him. There are no easy ways out of FTL right now as far as we know, so Nealfire wanting to get back to Emma will be similar to Rumple wanting to get to Nealfire.
She’s had her moments of weakness and almost leaving (just like Charming and Hook and Neal) but the difference is that Charming got to the edge of town and Emma got to the edge of town and Hook had his ship almost out of sight but they all came back and fought for Snow and Henry and Hook came back to help save a town full of people who hated and betrayed him (on behalf of Emma and Bae). Neal knew when he could come back and fight for it when Emma would have her family back and everything would be alright and he chose not to – that is a stark difference for me.
Except he didn’t believe that “everything would be alright” if he just went back. Charming knew he was going back to Snow and all his other friends, finally remembering who they were. He was going back to something awesome. Hook knew the state of play in town, he knew who was there and how they all interacted. Yeah, he also knew he was potentially going to his death, and he was going to help people who hated him and that was a ballsy move, but the place and the situation wasn’t a foreign entity to him is what I’m saying. Nealfire would have been walking in blind, believing Emma would hate him and he’d also have to face her parents. For me, the “stark difference” is the situations themselves, not necessarily the reactions people had.
I’m not sure if she’s wired to understand people who walk away when they say they want something, especially knowing what it feels like to be abandoned. In fact I think it hurts her more because one of the things that really tied her with Neal is the fact that they were both abandoned and wanted to save each other from being alone. To have someone who knows what it feels like do that to her was excruciating and the last straw before her walls went up.
It absolutely would have felt like a huge slap in the face to her back then, for exactly that reason. But now she has more information about what happened and why. It’s not something she can instantly make sense of, but she’s now aware that it’s nowhere near as straightforward as she’d thought, so I don’t think she’ll judge him as harshly in the future as she may have in the past.
She’s seeing Neal side with Tamara on everything, even though she thinks he’s lying to her about never believing in her lying ability. If Emma truly thinks that Neal did believe in her ability, and she did call him out on that, then she is left with knowing he knows he should side with her and at least question it and is choosing to defend Tamara to the bitter end and ignore everything he ever knew or trusted of Emma. WE know that he didn’t really have a choice but this is all that Emma sees and that’s gotta hurt. So I didn’t really mean that Emma IS the second choice, but that she may feel like it even if she does believe he cared about her the whole time. His actions speak differently.
One of the things with the SF interactions in SB is that it all happened over a brief period of time. It felt like ages because of the schedule of eps airing, but in SB time it was, what, a couple of weeks max? A seriously complicated situation like the one they’ve suddenly have themselves thrust into takes longer than a week or two to resolve. Emotions were raw and minds were reeling on both sides. They needed time to get used to each other again and figure out where they each truly stood, and how to react to each other. They had not had that much time.
I realize there wasn’t a lot of time between finding out that Tamara was up to no good and the ILYs since the two events happened back to back thanks to the portal. I do however feel that it rushed everything and there wasn’t a lot of build up to that moment.
And from the perspective of a SF shipper, it had felt like an agonisingly long wait where we just wanted them to drop the obvious charades and denial and spit it out already. 😉
I didn’t see that coming and felt a lack of build up to make that moment really payoff and seem legitimate for the people they are today and not just the idea of what they once were. If anything it felt more like closure than the start of something, especially since they both basically acknowledged the idea he was about to die. It felt like they were finally BOTH admitting that they felt something for each other once and this was their goodbye, without having to address any of the issues along the way because they did genuinely have feelings and it was nice to finally hear him say that he felt that way too.
I think there’s a difference between, “last chance to say it” and “closure”. The way I saw that scene was, “I wish we had more time, but we only have time for this, I need you to know that I love you,” as opposed to, “Thanks for the memories.”
I’m sure it will be brought up to help them move forward when he returns because he’ll use that to point out she should go easier on him, like he did with the necklace (and we still haven’t seen one word about the car *shakes head*)
I really wish we’d at least got a reaction shot the first time he saw their Bug!!
Their relationship in the past was sweet, but I feel like they’re different people now and the Emma that we’ve gotten to know over the last couple of seasons isn’t the same girl she was when she was with Neal. At times I feel like Emma would be reverting when she’s so awesome as the person she is now.
It’s been a decade, and naturally, people grow and change over the course of a decade. That doesn’t necessarily mean that they can’t still be together. Generally speaking, couples who are together for a long period of time change and grow together, and SF don’t have the benefit of that. They each need to rediscover who the other is now. But even couples who grow and change together never forget where and how their love began, and the emotion associated with that time and those memories doesn’t diminish. A couple that’s been married for 60 years and been through all sorts of ups and downs will still be able to tell you about the moment they met and knew it was true love back when they were 17 years old, even though they’re clearly different people now.
and that’s basically how I feel *currently* going back to Neal without much fuss would come across. It’s a sweet story if they can find their way back, I just need it to be realistic. The real world is not a fairy tale and Emma spent 99% of her life in the real world. Her life is not as cut & dried as some of the others are.
I hope there’s a whole mess of fuss. I don’t want SF to have a simple reunion and immediate happy ending. That would feel incredibly unrealistic. I want them to have to earn their relationship back.
The show has proven that Henry needs his entire dysfunctional family and contrary to some opinions, that Henry needs all of them including both Emma AND Regina. (I can’t stand the argument that they have to be together for Henry’s sake – be in love for being in love’s sake, not because Henry exists, that’s not healthy for anyone.
Adam tweeted just the other day that he doesn’t believe that SF should be together just for Henry’s sake, so I do hope that if they do end up together in the end, that people won’t hate it just because they put Henry’s parents back together. Clearly there is more to K&H’s thought process than that if Adam’s tweeting it.
As far as Regina goes, I think she’s currently a suspect choice to be a parental figure, but I believe that by show’s end, she’ll have proven herself worthy of being someone who can be a positive parental figure in Henry’s life.
So glad we can have these civil debates though.
It can be a bit nerve wracking to attempt civil debate on such topics, because people feel so passionately about their ships that it’s easy to get defensive.
The Snowing/Abigail triangle was obvious, the MAP triangle *should* be obvious as a TLK woke Aurora up etc. It seems odd to me that if we’re supposed to be rooting for SF to get back together and watch them overcome obstacles like the other “set in stone” couples that have also been in triangles, that they would put such a great option in there that has lots of potential and make people fall in love with the pairing only to ditch it because Neal’s “alive” – which frankly isn’t a reason – but since they like to throw curveballs I really just don’t know (and contrary to some opinions, nobody else knows either except for H&K).
Well you said yourself that standard FTL rules shouldn’t apply to Emma’s love life because she’s a product of living in our world. In our world, twu wuv isn’t always obviously destined, so I think it makes sense for them to have provided options.
Also, it keeps things interesting and provides for emotionally loaded and unpredictable storylines, and that makes for compelling TV that keeps people tuning in. 😉
@Phee wrote:
Even as a SF shipper, I don’t believe that that ILY was cut and dried. I just happen to have faith that their initial falling in love all those years ago is enough of a basis for them to build on. It’s not really either of their fault that their time together was interrupted. They were in a bizarre, unique, magically influenced situation, it wasn’t just a standard breakup where someone in the relationship screws it up and it ends. Their relationship was manipulated by outside forces, (which I’m now thinking ties back to THO, (and therfore to PP’s plans to get Henry), because I think they’re the ones who sent August to break them up), so I can’t apply real life breakup rules to their situation. IRL, if a guy allows his girlfriend to go to jail for him, I’d think he was an A grade irredeemable douchebag, but this situation is entirely different IMO.
I look at it more as though they were put on pause, and only now is the time drawing near where they’ll be able to move forward again. They won’t be able to pick up directly where they left off, because they have baggage galore, but given the uniqueness of their situation and their breakup, I believe they’ll be able to reconcile what happened, understand that it was unavoidable, and finally fully explore the possibilites of their love, moving forward.
Agreed. And I’d like to say that most rational SF’ers did not see the ILY coming. I almost fell out of my chair. I was like, “what? already? what?” I was excited but confused because I’ve long been predicting that Hook would be the one to help heal Emma.
I think he undoubtedly knew that he’d damaged her, and feared that if they made contact again, it would only serve to damage her more, which is the last thing he wanted to have happen. Maybe when he found that pic of Milah back on Hook’s ship, it ripped that wound right open for him and hurt like hell as though it had only just happened, and he was trying to spare Emma that same pain. Easier to leave wounds like that scabbed over and in the past.
Neal’s biggest fear is that he will become his father and when he sees what he did to Emma (and then add in Henry) he probably thinks that he is turning into Rumple. Rumple said “there is no greater pain than regret” to which Nealfire replied, “try abandonment.” Everything Neal does goes back to his feelings of abandonment. People who are abandoned at some point in their lives never stop thinking that everyone is going to abandon them again and it colors every decision they make. Faced with the possibility that Tamara is not who Neal thought she was, he gets defensive because he can’t believe that he is going to be hurt and abandoned all over again. People who are abandoned also have a tendency to think that they don’t deserve love because there is something wrong with them and coming up against the reality of it is quite terrible. I know some people think that Neal was making fun of Emma’s abilities in SSTR but to me, he wasn’t. His walls instantly went up because he was faced with all that pain over again.
And considering that one of the few things he remembers about his father is him saying, “Everything that happens, happens by design, and there’s nothing we can do about it. Forces greater than us conspire to make it happen. Fate, destiny, whatever you want to call it,” maybe after all this time, he believes he’s doomed to always end up alone and it’s squeezed almost all of the hope out of him.
Yup. Abandonment issues = “I will always be alone because people will always leave me.” Emma has them too. That’s why she keeps running.
If she’s big on people who make tough choices…well, Nealfire did that. Granted, his choice complicated her life greatly, but he did have the balls to make the impossible choice and follow through with it, for the greater good of everyone in SB.
IMO Nealfire made the hardest decision we’ve seen on this show so far: his personal happiness and the happiness of the woman he loves, after years of both of them being abandoned and alone OR the lives of everyone from FTL. It would be easy to run from that responsibility but then he really would be Rumple and he couldn’t live with that.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I will keep processing these very long posts when I’m a bit more alert but I will definitely be keeping all of these things in mind when I do my rewatch. I’m hoping to enjoy Neal more for sure as I do see him as a viable candidate even though I still prefer another option at this time.
The point I was trying to make about Emma’s quote to MM in 1×06 about wanting someone vs making a choice to do something about it still reads to me as Neal said he wanted her all that time but didn’t show her that. He chose not to wait for her and come back to say it (and never had any intention of doing so). All she wants is to not be abandoned anymore. She made the comment to MM because David was technically with Kathryn at the time but said he was leaving her because he wanted to be with MM. He wasn’t just *saying* he wanted to be with MM, he was making the choice to go and be with her. Neal says he regretted it every day and wanted to be with her, but he’s only in her life now because she found him (and under horrible circumstances. I agree that that hurts her more and is something that she will remember and have to find a way to process to move past it).
So I’m not sure that that would read as a positive choice to her – his past choice makes sense because of the greater good. Choosing not to come to her after that, even if he thought it would hurt both of them more, was still a choice to not give her the benefit of the doubt and have faith in them. Emma doesn’t like being controlled and once again, she wasn’t left to make up her own mind about things because he made it up for her by not giving her the chance.
The fact that she waited in Tallahassee for 2 years shows deep dedication on her part, but it also has to hurt so much more because she did fight to believe in them and even thinking he set her up was waiting for him when she got out, hoping beyond hope that he would show up and everything would be fine. I think in her mind she’s given him a lot of chances to set things right over the years and if we focus solely on post-initial choice to go along with August, then he still has a lot of things to make up for.
(As a viewer, knowing that not only did August tell him originally that he would send a postcard, but literally right before August showed up in SB he reminded him and again and then immediately after that he started something with Tamara is what infuriates me personally. Yes he was more vulnerable to her in that moment because he was thinking about the opportunity to see Emma again and what all that would be like, but he still was SO close and was reminded of that and chose to bail – seeing that 2nd scene of him with August reminding him infuriated me because it wasn’t just the 11 years or whatever it was, it was RIGHT before and he was reminded of it *shakes Neal* – and for the record I’m just as tough on Hook when he does something stupid, or Rumple or anyone else so it’s not a deal-breaker for me, just an annoyance).
I agree that choices are a big thing for Emma and she may learn to appreciate the difficult choice that Neal made back then because it did ultimately reunite her with her family and she’s already come to grips with Snowing for leaving her. I don’t look at it as just choice itself being the important thing but the context as well and we know from her statement that it’s one thing to say you want someone (or regretted leaving them perhaps) but it’s another to actually choose to do something so I don’t see her making it easy for him for moving on because that was a choice he made for both of them, without giving her the option of forgiving him. Neal knows what it’s like to hear that someone regretted leaving him but never tried to do anything to fix that. Emma tried to fix it when he HE left HER and he never did which is what bugs me.
I do realize that Emma has left someone before too (Henry) but once he brought himself back into her life, she didn’t leave. She stayed because she was worried about him and eventually he became the center of her world. She’s not perfect either by any means and Henry had to find her, just like she had to find Snowing and Neal. The difference I’m seeing is that Emma stayed for Henry, and Neal was still ready for her to leave his life again if it meant keeping him from Rumple, no matter how much it hurt him or was obviously hurting her by him telling her to go.
Now, I will say that I was cheering for him when he went back to make sure that Emma was safe from Rumple. That was the first time as an adult that I was actually able to root for him and it was before he knew about Henry so he gets major points for that and I think it will help him garner some goodwill along the way. Emma also saw that he still had the dreamcatcher etc and his reaction to the necklace (I want the reaction to the car darnit, I really thought these two would TALK as they walked back from wherever Cora sent them but nope). So there’s definitely a foundation to build on. However Neal still returned to SB to save his dad and stayed to be in Henry’s life. The main focus right now for everyone, including Neal, is Henry. If he didn’t feel like he needed to be in Henry’s life, he wouldn’t have asked his fiancee to come to SB and try to make a go of it there (in front of the woman he loves). I honestly think it would have better for everyone if he was just honest with himself and had broken up with Tamara (ignoring her evil agenda – but really, it’s not generally a good idea to marry someone when you’re in love with someone else).
As for the 28 years vs 11 years thing: it was a bad situation for everyone. Charming was prepared to do that for the good of all and for his family no matter how much it hurt and had faith that no matter what, Emma would save them all and then Snowing would be reunited. The point I was making about him almost leaving but coming back when he got his memories – yes, it was exceptional circumstances so I get why it may not be considered a direct parallel, but he still knew he had done horrible things even though they were out of his control and immediately went back to her (not knowing at the time that she too had done things and they were fine) but the point was that he knew he hadn’t been the kindest to MM and hurt her deeply but still went back and believed in them.
Neal had good reasons for leaving Emma for the greater good before, knew he hurt her, and it brought her back together with her family (just like them leaving her before did too) but he didn’t come back and apparently never intended to since he moved on with his life. That’s the way it would look to me if I were her. Charming came back knowing he wounded MM even though he never wanted to do that. Things were more IN Neal’s control than that after the curse was broken, and he chose differently. All Emma knows is what she sees and the people she loves that fight to be together even when they’re forced apart for a bit, and the *belief* and *faith* that they can overcome anything and that their love is strength and nobody can keep them apart. The moment they could be back together, Snowing made it happen. The moment that Neal could run back to Emma and explain everything, he didn’t.
I do think Emma still believes in Neal and I hope that it isn’t just the younger version of herself being hopeful that everything will be perfect when they have a lot of real issues and deep wounds to deal with. I don’t want it to be unrealistic and I certainly don’t want her to buy into the idea of something and hurt everyone including herself by finally realizing that it’s not real *now* – I’ll be happy for her if the younger version of herself finally gets everything she’s ever wanted, I just don’t want to lose how awesome she has become because of everything that she went through and going back *too easily* would do that for me. I also don’t want her to think she has to try to make anyone else, like Henry, happy or that she owes it to anyone to try but rather chooses to if that’s what happens. I would really hate for her to get Neal’s hopes up (and Henry’s and Rumple’s etc etc) and then come to the realization that it’s just not what it once was and they’re different people now.
I certainly don’t want a mirror situation to what happened with Milah/Hook because I’m already dreading Neal’s reaction to seeing Emma & Hook be close, even if it’s just as friends. He blames Hook for “taking” Milah away from him (I blame Milah for this, really hate her), but he already thinks of Hook as the pirate who broke up his family and I don’t see him reacting well at all to Hook being in Emma’s life in any capacity, much less Henry’s (even though his last choice of love interest tried to kill everyone and kidnapped Henry who Hook is doing his best to save right now, even putting aside his vendetta with Rumple which is on Bae’s mother’s behalf for crying out loud). Nobody is perfect, I’m just seriously dreading a confrontation that isn’t even about Emma or her ability to choose but rather the implication that Hook is once again destroying Neal’s hopes of a happy family/life. I would much much rather have Emma push them both aside and make a choice and follow her heart than feel like she has to at least try with Neal and then lead him on and break him again.
I’m really quite torn on how the triangle has to play out just because I feel like if they wanted us to root for Neal they wouldn’t have setup awesome potential for Hook, and likewise if they wanted to show the difference between Neal and Hook they wouldn’t set up Neal as the fall guy who just keeps getting stomped on by life. He can’t seem to catch a break and I feel for him I do, I just don’t care for his relationship with Emma and I see loads of potential in why Hook would be good for her. I won’t go into all of that here as we’re discussing an actual former couple and most don’t want to hear it anyway, but just as SF fans see a much more complex situation with Neal, I see more in Hook than just good looks and innuendos. Thankfully Emma seems to see through all of that with both of them so her choice should be far less upsetting than it will be to fans.
I find it rather amusing that we are far more invested in her love life than she will ever be. I fully expect whoever gets hurt by the triangle to move on to somebody better suited for them later on. After all, if Rumple/Milah hadn’t broken up, we’d never have RumBelle. Sometimes good (or not so good as the case may be) things fall apart so that better things can fall together and I have hope that both Neal and Hook will find who they are truly meant to be with, though I strongly suspect one of them will end up with Emma – if they throw somebody else into the mix I have no idea how that could possibly work with 2 huge fanbases already in place!).
I think once they’re all reunited, Emma will push all emotional problems to the side and focus on ____ (insert whatever bigger picture problem here). That’s what she did with Snowing, and I fully expect her to need more time to come to grips with Neal being alive and what that means in her world right now than just seeing him. Knowing Emma, she probably will have gotten closer to Hook along the way and will now take a step back from both and put off choosing for awhile. I don’t see her ditching one for the other and I doubt she will have fully started anything with Hook at this point but maybe be close to it.
I think we can all agree we want it to be realistic and watch them fight to overcome their obstacles in order to get the payoff of them reuniting if that’s what happens. Whether that will happen or not remains to be seen, but I think we all appreciate Emma and want the best for her, whatever that ends up being.
They haven’t been together in a long time but she now knows her instincts weren’t wrong back then when she felt that connection with him. This may lead her closer to Hook in some capacity because we know she initially wanted to trust him but was too afraid to because of her past with Neal. That all started before Neal came back into the picture so it’s not her finding a rebound and she’s got more important things to focus on anyway. It does however help with her instinct of trust and may let her open back up again with Hook around as she was already drawn to him earlier but afraid to trust herself.
It sets up the triangle beautifully because it gives Emma the chance to finally trust herself after all this time and let someone in and she will probably be fairly close to him by the time Neal comes back into the picture. Whether that means romantically or not remains to be seen, but she’s shown time and time again that she wants to trust Hook but has been afraid to. I think at this point both Hook and Emma have accepted that they understand each other and get to each other in a way that others don’t (she sees through his facade, he can tell when there’s something deeper going on in her reasoning and asks about it etc) and there is a small foundation of trust that is starting to build there. Right now her priority is Henry so I don’t see her jumping into anything with Hook just because she believes Neal to be dead. Nor do I think the moment he shows up that they will instantly be a couple. There is however a chance for either pairing to progress because in getting past that hurdle of not officially being able to trust herseslf, Emma is now free to move forward in a relationship (which she is not remotely good at doing) with either of them.
It’s going to be a long road to finding her TL and I can see her being legitimately torn because part of her will always love Neal and part of her has been drawn to Hook from the beginning and he hasn’t put her through half the stuff Neal has and he appreciates the woman she is *today* and tells her so. Neal can absolutely make up for that and get to know who she is now and appreciate and love her for it just as much, not saying he can’t. All I’m saying is that there is someone else in the picture who she has a connection with as well and they understand each other. She brings out the best in him and he gets her to open up and answer things she doesn’t even want to admit to herself much less anyone else and she doesn’t hesitate to answer him now. She’s an open book with him but still very guarded with most others. We haven’t seen her open up that quickly and this is someone she didn’t want to let herself trust because she’s been burned in the past but is now trusting to help her save the most important person in her life: Henry.
To discount either side and its potential does nobody any good because both are compelling stories. We’ve seen Emma in love with Neal in the past and we’ve seen how well she & Hook get each other and open up to each other now. If she were just meeting him I’d understand the problem but she wanted to trust him and felt drawn to him before Neal even re-entered the picture. Tallahassee was showing us why she couldn’t let herself trust Hook but that she was drawn to him. It paralleled the relationships perfectly and what she expected to have happen because of that which is why she left first. She couldn’t risk it, but she wanted to. So while CS isn’t “legitimate” as of yet, I can’t definitively say 100% (and those who know me know I’m super indecisive & afraid to get hurt so I don’t back a couple I think are doomed) that I think SF is still IN love and has to happen. It could, it definitely could. I just happen to believe that she does have another very good option and with everything that’s happened, the door is still open.
She won’t start anything actually romantic until Henry is safe and sound and presumably after both men are back in the picture (and they have their own issues to deal with regarding each other before anything can happen – they ALL need to get along for Henry’s sake. Emma has offered Hook the chance to be a part of something and I don’t see her tossing him to the side even as a friend just because Neal has issues with him. She’s not one to let people tell her who she can have in her life, much like Henry. They’ll all have to learn to get along).
That doesn’t mean it’s entirely out of the realm of possibility that Emma will let herself get close to Hook in the meantime and want to pursue something with him in the future once Neal is back, nor does it close the door to a reunion with Neal. This is Emma – she’ll just push both away and deal with it in her own sweet time. One of the things I do feel is key though is Hook’s comment from his first introduction “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” – we don’t yet know if Emma agrees with his statement, but I’m inclined to believe so because SHE fights for what she wants and the others she is surrounded by do the same and will literally do whatever it takes to get somebody they love back (even if it takes 300 years and a curse and a lot of manipulation and killing to do so *shakes Rumple*). In fact I think that comment from Hook sets up why he could potentially be a compelling choice for Emma. Whether she chooses that or not remains to be seen. As H&K like to remind us “In all life, there are the people that are right for you and there are the people that are wrong for you, and then there are the people that you just choose.” So it could literally be anything and as Jane so perfectly said the other day, all the pairings have possibility and “make sense” though it’s easy to miss the finer points of any pairing if they’re not your initial cup of tea.
I do still feel like the ILY for SF was rushed (even though many were waiting for it for ages because they do obviously have feelings / remember loving each other and it hurts to see someone you felt so deeply for move on). For me, it wasn’t the culmination of all the jealousy, but rather the fact that his previous relationship JUST ended (and it wasn’t done by him AND it all played out right in front of Emma). It JUST ended and then he turns around and says ILY to Emma and it *finally* sounded like he did regret it all that time and can only now face up to it because he thinks he’s dying – but it was still rushed because there simply wasn’t any time.
Emma may have been knocked out / biding her time for a bit but all of this played out right in front of her. Neal was obviously hurt by finding out everything with Tamara was a lie (and on principle I agree just because he’s been through enough and didn’t need another person in his life pretending to love him) but after being so affected by that turns around and says ILY to someone else? Emma needed to hear it and there wasn’t any time really, but he was so hurt only moments ago on finding out that his relationship with someone else is a lie. That’s easy to overlook when you believe in things as much as Emma does and in thinking he’s about to die, but it’s another rotten situation where Emma’s the one that gets hurt by it because she will probably remember that someday when she moves past being happy he’s alive. One of her last moments with him before that is seeing him be hurt that Tamara, the woman he loved and needed so badly he asked her to come to SB to be with him (in front of Emma) break his heart, shoot him, then send him through a portal and it took all of that to get him to tell her what she told him ages ago? She opened the door wide open in Manhattan and he even could have clarified it with something along the lines of “I loved you too but I was doing what was best for everyone and it gave you what you wanted: your family back” and even gone so far as to say “but that was a long time ago and I’ve moved on and am engaged now” but he obviously didn’t want to have to mention that part. He could have easily acknowledged that he did love her *back then* just like she had just done without stepping on Tamara’s toes in the slightest.
If he really wanted to make the point that he wasn’t just using Emma which is what she was accusing him of and getting upset with him about, he could have said it (and clarified it was back then so as not to upset his relationship with his fiancee)and he didn’t, but it took Tamara breaking his heart and trying to kill him that did the trick? If I were Emma I’d be ticked.
In fact that will probably help set up the legitimacy of the triangle in S3 because if she does get close to Hook and is presented a chance with someone who knows and appreciates the woman she is, hasn’t done half the emotional damage to her that Neal has and is willing to fight for her instead of hiding in fear and not being able to say how he really feels, that’s a pretty great option for someone who needs to hear those things. We know Hook can love just as deeply as anyone else. He’s spent how many years trying to avenge the death of a woman he only had a few years with? And his whole thing is “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets.” If I were Emma, after everything I’d been through, I would find that VERY appealing. (And no those aren’t the only things I see/like about Hook – I won’t go into it all here because this is a legitimate couples seen on screen thing and we’re discussing SwanFire which makes me happy because I do want to like them more if I need to in the future, but these few things do contrast with what Emma is used to and worth noting).
I’m not sure if closure was the right word on my part because I didn’t mean that it was necessarily the end of all things but rather that it was closure on a chapter of the past where she was doubting that he ever cared about her even though she felt so certain that he did. It was nice to actually hear him say it and when things have affected you for so long and made you doubt yourself over the years, it’s nice to get confirmation that you weren’t imagining things back then and more importantly that your instincts are right – that’s a huge thing for Emma as she relies on those and we have seen her go against them because she wants to believe in something / is afraid to believe because of prior experiences. Whether it moves them forward or helps her as a person more forward because she finally got that confirmation, it needed to happen. So I’m not sure if it’s closure in general or not, but in that moment it may have felt like it was the best they could do in thinking he was dying and that is probably the mindset she is going into at this moment.
There just wasn’t a lot of time between how broken up he is that his last relationship ended and his professing his love to Emma. While I do believe his love IS real for Emma, it still felt a little out of whack just because even though he was professing it to his first choice, she was still getting sloppy seconds *at that moment* after having to watch the whole thing play out! It’s bad enough having to hear “Well, I always loved you and just was too afraid to think I had a chance so I moved on and picked very badly but I’m ok with it because that means I didn’t have to hurt her to follow my heart and come back to you” but it’s another thing entirely to watch him be devastated that the woman he loved was lying to him and then turn around right after that “breakup” and have him say that he loves her. There just wasn’t a gap and I felt like there needed to be but the circumstances didn’t allow for it. It’s another reason I don’t think it can pick up right where it left off even if she’s thrilled he’s alive, just because she’ll have that moment in the back of her mind as much as the one where he says he loves her.
Looking at it from Emma’s point of view, I’m sure she feels like she’s been slapped in the face a few times because she never doubted them. She fought for them back then (and again after jail in waiting in Tallahassee for 2 years) and I think in her mind, especially after seeing Snowing have such faith when given a time table that they would be together again and could overcome anything, that knowing he had the chance to come back and chose to go off and make a new life is going to sting and not be easily forgotten.
I’m not sure Emma cares for the fate/destiny argument, much like Belle. Rumple is the one that got that into Neal’s head but he should know better than anyone it’s the choices that you make. He based all of it on the Seer and it became self-fulfilling prophecies. So I’m not sure I buy the fate/destiny thing other than the fact that Neal mentioned it. In the bar in Manhattan he simply said that something good must have come out of their relationship, that there must have been a bigger thing to it all – and that was obviously Henry. Whether that was in the grand design of things (which may be, since PP had a picture of him long before he was born, not to mention that Henry brought Emma to SB), then Neal just backed that up in saying that they were meant to be *at least for a time* for Henry to exist. He never pretended that it had to be anything more than that, though clearly he was hoping deep down that it was because he did focus in on the necklace etc. The feelings are definitely there and I don’t discount that they exist at all. I’m just not sure that beyond having a past and now being there for Henry’s sake, that there *has* to be anything more to it.
Emma is very much not a person who lets others tell her what to do. She hates being manipulated and the more it happens, the more upset she gets. Her quote to Ashley in 1×04 about the world telling you who you are and having to stand up to them and say “No, this is who I am” is very telling about her and her whole life she’s been manipulated. I don’t see her going down a path willingly to just fall into that. I think for Emma it is about the choices people make so she will struggle for a time in the triangle because of this, but ultimately if she does go back to Neal, it will be her choice to do so and it won’t be because of fate or destiny or just ignoring every bad thing ever and wiping it under the rug. She is her own person & prides herself on that.
Right now, at this moment, I’m not sure going back is the right choice. I didn’t ship her with anyone until partway through season 2 (except Graham *sniff* but that wasn’t hardcore for me either). She’s a tough person and deserves an epic romance (and I think she’ll get it for sure), I’m just not sure backtracking is the answer. Yes there are extenuating circumstances. I know he couldn’t just ditch Tamara, but if he was being truthful with himself he could have said his heart belonged to someone else and always did and he was wrong to try and pretend otherwise. It wouldn’t have made him the greatest guy in the world, but in the long run I’m very against him marrying someone he doesn’t love if he’s in love with someone else (and Rumple himself pointed out that Neal couldn’t marry someone while his heart belonged to Emma, just like King George did when Charming wanted to be with Snow).
As for characters shipping they can do whatever they want. Rumple ships SF (with a bias) and Cora pointed out that Hook chose Emma “and the consequences of that decision” so I don’t really care much what they say as it is ultimately up to Emma and even if everyone in her life hates her decision initially, she will find a way to make them accept it – much like everyone else has had to fight to get people to accept it. None of the TL couples have had it easy and there has always been someone against it happening. The same will be true of Emma no matter who she chooses because they’ll either worry about her with Hook because they don’t see the side of him that Emma does, or they’ll worry about her going back to Neal and getting hurt by the same person again. (I’d like to think that he wouldn’t hurt her again and don’t think he would intentionally – just saying that it’s a common worry with going back to someone that essentially wrecked a good portion of your life and made you miserable for years, regardless of the reason. I’d be more worried if nobody ever batted an eyelash at either choice.)
I certainly don’t think these are insurmountable odds by any means and that’s why the triangle is set up so well because both options have good arguments (Jane herself said that what she loves is that all of the pairings “make sense” and there’s lots of possibilities). I won’t argue CS here because it’s pointless in a thread with couples that we have seen on screen and it would just upset the majority of people at this point but I hope that with more screentime, Hook is presented in a more positive light as well Neal. Both need to win people over for the triangle to make sense to the general public to relate to Emma and I think in time both will. (As I said previously, the other triangles had obvious endings but Emma is a new character not set in stone and therefore the only new journey we can watch playout without knowing exactly where it will end up.)
I think some opened up to Hook a bit more in the finale now that we’re not seeing as much of the facade he puts up and I hope that whatever his relationship with Emma ends up being, that people accept him more. I expect the triangle to be in full swing by the time they’re all reunited, not because Emma thinks Hook is attractive and thinks Neal is dead, but because he is genuinely a good option for her and it’s being presented to her now (and started out before Neal came back into her life – she’s not just meeting him now, which is key) before she has the option of having Neal back in her life. She’s been through so much that I think she’ll be truly torn and I really hope the audience will be as well.
I know for me personally, as much as I love CS, I was mildly torn at first and then other things have bugged me post-Manhattan but every once in awhile I see a good argument or nice video that reminds me of the good aspects of SF too so that I won’t be nearly as upset if it has to happen. I just hope the same is true in reverse and that regardless of who Emma ends up with, we’ll all be happy for her. I think we can all agree that she’s an awesome character and deserves something good in her life after everything she has been through.
Regardless of who she ends up with, she’ll have to shake the other one in order to fully commit. Both men will be in her life for the forseeable future either way, and they all have to get along. Neal will still be in her life regardless as he is there for Henry. Before she can fully move on with anyone she has to make peace with her relationship with him, even if it’s so that she & Neal can move forward – their past is what stops her from having good relationships with anyone. Likewise, if she does form an attachment with Hook (which I think is well on its way to happening) then she will have to deal with that as well before making a choice between them (another reason I think she’ll push both back and try to evaluate things).
I do expect them to find love if Emma doesn’t choose them. So far I haven’t found anyone I’d like to see Hook with (I don’t buy the Regina thing – yes they’d be hot together but they’d also be toxic; and we haven’t actually seen Ariel yet but I’ve heard some interesting ways that that could work as well). Likewise, Neal reminds me of Daniel in that they are sweet and funny and want a simple life and so for now, I’m on board with the *idea* of FireQueen. They want similar things and he would be a good influence on her rather than bringing her further into darkness. They have both been manipulated by Rumple and had their lives wrecked by him / magic so they have some common bonds, not to mention that she raised his son. We haven’t seen enough yet but as I said I like the *idea* – coincidentally I liked the *idea* of SF last season before we were properly introduced to Neal or Hook. Sometimes things change when we’re shown more and that could very well be the case for any pairings. My hope is that by the end they make us fall in love with each love story on the show, whether it becomes our favorite or not.
Phee I LOVE your comment about Colin & MRJ. It is SO refreshing to hear somebody say that argument can be thrown out the window! (I can’t blame you for lusting after Colin but clearly it is NOT a legit reason to ship someone and it doesn’t diminish the possibility of SF, nor does it promote the likelihood of CS. I certainly don’t ship based on looks and I happen to think that MRJ has his moments of adorableness too).
RG – And with that my magical mice are demanding extra cheese and a nap. I’m not even sure if they’re making sense anymore they’re so worn out! (They are, however, demanding their own backstory which I will have to work on at some point). My brain = fried.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Neal said he wanted her all that time but didn’t show her that
When did Neal say he wanted her? To her? After Manhattan I mean. And when he told her he regretted it every day, the next couple of scenes were them in the warehouse, Tamara knocking out Emma, him getting shot, the portal opening, him saving her from falling, and him falling through himself. So after he actually said he regretted leaving her every day, there was no time for action.
Neal’s decisions about Tamara and Emma aren’t so black and white like it was with David and Kathryn and Mary Margaret. David knew Mary Margaret wanted to be with him but he chose to stay with Kathryn instead. Neal had no idea if Emma wants to be with him. At that point, he didn’t know if she’d forgiven him. They were so far away from the “I want to be with you so I’m going to prove it to you” stage.
Neal was in the “oh my god I’m still in love with my ex from 10 years ago who I think still hates me but I have a fiance and I don’t know what I’m doing” stage.
Pretty sure he said he regretted it every day but I can’t for the life of me remember where at this point. I agree that the couples were in very different stages though and it’s far less cut & dried for SF than it ever was for any of the other triangles we’ve encountered so far.
I’ll agree that Neal didn’t know but he also made no attempt to find out which is a sticking point for me in the con column for SF. It hurts to see how much Emma has suffered and to see that Neal was able to move on whether he still missed Emma and suffered or not whereas Emma sabotaged basically every relationship or chance at one. And to do it so closely to when he would have had a chance to find out (which he not only knew about but was reminded of moments before meeting Tamara).
Neal is definitely a mixed bag of emotions and rightfully so. I certainly don’t fault him for having real and confusing feelings. I just can’t currently buy into them as a TL/together couple or couple that would 100% be together right this second if he hadn’t fallen through the portal which was my gripe with them being included as a legit couple but other legit couples not be on the list.
Again – not disappointed my favorites aren’t included because they don’t belong on the list (yet).
I will say this, I very very very much appreciate that we’ve been able to have an actual discussion about SF. I don’t mind responding as long as it is constructive and helpful to see the way everyone is approaching the couple and where they are coming from. I have found it immensely helpful to know what to look for on my rewatch and try to come at it from a different angle myself. While Neal isn’t my favorite for Emma, I do see the appeal and I appreciate all of you taking the time to explain so fully why you defend him the way you do.
I can usually defend just about anybody and see where they’re coming from whether I like it / agree with it or not. I certainly don’t *hate* Neal by any means and I truly want everyone to be happy. I am open to the idea if it happens as I love the show so much and trust the writers. Not getting my pairings on other shows hasn’t made me give up the shows in question or shipping in general and OUAT certainly won’t, regardless of what happens.
As long as we are being civil and getting along, it’s really rather pleasant to see where everyone is coming from and makes me happy to see that people on both sides are at least mildly open to whatever because we love the show. I am so SICK of the bashing and name-calling and hatred that has been spewed around and made me hate the idea. It’s nice to see that people who disagree on a pairing can still get along and it’s definitely given me a new appreciation for SF, especially given the fact that I was getting so much hatred from some of their fans and being lumped in with airheads who just think Colin’s hot because I love CS.
Everyone ships because they see something they like and to each their own. I’d like to think everyone has excellent reasons or we wouldn’t bother putting ourselves through this! I’ll be glad when the hiatus is over and we have new concrete information to go off as sometimes that helps change ones mind on things too. (Goodness knows with shows like this I sometimes start out hating characters and learn to love them more than the ones I liked originally and vice versa!) Sometimes we get an idea stuck in our head of how something is and then we look at it again or find out more and realize that’s not the way it was at all. I look forward to what they throw at us and hope in the end it all works out and fans of every character get a wonderful and epic love story to enjoy. 🙂
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
Just to help you out: the regret line was from SSTR, on the beach.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Again, was working on a long response offline and now there are other posts in between that sort of address what I’d typed out–but took me so long posting anyway even though it doesn’t take into account Phee, then MysteryKat’s then Rg’s lastest posts above. Due to length, I will only put the first part of the paragraphs from MysteryKat’s post, to which I am responding, and break it into two parts.
@MysteryKat wrote:
We are all Oncers and want our favorite characters to be happy! We just have different ideas of how to get them to that point, that’s all.
I agree 100%. We also have different ideas of what makes a good story, along the way to that ending.
I think there would be too much pain for Neal to see Hook and Emma together as the JR pulls up compared to how much pain I think Hook would feel if say, the JR pulls up and Neal is waving on the shore and Neal and Emma do the cheesy lovers reunited running down the beach thing. I fully expect that what the writers have in store may change what I see between Hook and Emma and how Neal might react. He’s accepted the possibility before, that he and Emma would co-parent, so its on the table and doesn’t necessarily have to be written as sad.
@MysteryKat wrote:It doesn’t mean that any of us think couples we have seen on the show are not legitimate.
My two category approach really left out the obvious differences between the things I’d list as “speculative” and “full on confirmed by a curse break”.
@MysteryKat wrote:I haven’t gotten to do my season rewatch yet and I’m hoping with all of these things in mind that I will see more of the positive stuff everyone seems to be enjoying about …
We are all limited by our own imaginations and that is where we can, if we can discuss politely as we are doing here, get the benefit of a different point of view.
“MysteryKat” wrote:I am happy to hear that some are at least a little more open to Hook now …See I’m not on the Hate the Goat boat and definitely do not hate Hook. I do think we have too many characters to keep GOAT around, and Greg lost me after the torture, but twists and turns await. I’ll keep my mind open. I’m trying to do that for Hook—and I do see he had huge character growth in the finale. I expected we’d see him do some big gesture putting his revenge aside, and he did.
”MysteryKat” wrote:The only question I have about that declaration between them is how much of it is real and how much of it is the idea of it based on what it used to be.It is a fair thing to wonder about. They have both changed a lot (what was up with that 3 pc suit of his in the open!?). I also agree that love has many meanings. They didn’t expect he would live—so it was not renewing their relationship and picking up where they left off.
“MysteryKat” wrote:Regardless of his reasons or lack of confidence, he didn’t choose to go after Emma and he didn’t say he loved her until after Tamara was an option so I feel like from EMMA’s point of view after that, he chose Tamara over her – against his real feelings but in that case the situation was bad for all three of them.Emma’s view and Neal’s view are likely to be different, that is true. The question is, how much does it matter to Emma? We’ve seen her say to MM that all you can do is ask that he choose you—but how long do you wait for that choice? Would she understand that Neal didn’t see her (Emma) as an option? I’m not sure how they work all that out. MM and David never resolved that, as the curse lifted. So we never really got Emma’s reactions to the sad fallout at the end of Season 1 over David’s reluctance to be truly honest with Katherine.
I get why he did it and that there are definitely a lot of emotions involved in all of it. I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.
I see it differently. What hurt Bae was that they left—not that they didn’t come back. He didn’t ask them to come back, he wasn’t waiting for them to come, and with Rumpel, he was avoiding him because he had too much anger to ever want to speak to him again. He thought Milah was dead until Hook told him, so that was more complicated. I’ll have to rewatch that scene, but I took out of it that Bae was more angry that Hook lied to him and “stole” his mother and wanted to kill his father, than he was hurt that Milah had never come back for him. Here on the forums, we the audience get pretty upset at her, but I’m not sure Bae was feeling additional pain that she had apparently had the option to come get him and chosen not to do it. When Gold and Henry talk, Henry thinks all that matters is that the person who left you returns to you—but that is NOT how Neal feels about it, and Gold suspected as much. All that mattered to Neal was that he had been abandoned and betrayed—and as he was not willing to forgive, he really did not believe Emma would either.
I’m basing most of that on what Neal says to August that he doesn’t think Emma would want to see him. He tells Emma he was afraid she could never forgive him. Those lines are much more consistent with thinking he didn’t have a real choice to find her. That then, leads to a good question here—why was he the one who had to find her, rather than the other way around? August KNEW why Neal left, and Neal probably thought that August talked to Emma, and at some point, revealed the whole thing to Emma, and that Emma chose not to come find him. He asked for the postcard, sure, but there was nothing but “broken” on it.
August was completely wooden, and too ashamed to go to Emma once she believed and reveal the past, that he had stolen the money, that Neal had made him promise to stay with Emma and he broke the promise, that he was the one who talked Neal into leaving her and why. That Neal really didn’t want his father to find him—all of which would probably make more sense that Emma would have to leave SB to find Neal, than Neal come there to find her. It would have helped Neal tremendously if that postcard had said something like “Broken, told Emma why you left, Emma believes and wants to see you.” August wasn’t much of a friend to either of them. Neal may have thought Emma knew the whole story and was still done with him.
So there’s that moment of hope on his face when he sees her in Manhattan, then it crashes down when he realizes—she doesn’t know! It’s interesting to see their conversation again, with the knowledge that August has not talked to either of them since the curse broke. He is confused why she tackled him on the street. He doesn’t know who Gold is. He’s angry she brought his father, as if he expected her to understand he has issues with Rumpel. He’s trying to process all of that, in the bar scene, and at the same time, Emma keeps making it clear she did not seek him out to renew their relationship. So he has to explain why he left, see the pain and hurt on her face, knowing there’s nothing he can do or say to get her to forgive. He finally gives her that choice—lie to my father, and never see me again. She takes that deal and seals in his mind that they are done. So after that point, he still wants to protect her, but he is not free then to be with her because of Tamara. From there, I agree with what Phee said. He can’t break Tamara’s heart unless he knows there’s a chance for him with Emma.
I’m still puzzling through what Neal knew, what August knew, and how much of what they knew was actually true, and when they knew it. The timeline of the curse being broken, versus when Neal got into a romantic serious relationship with Tamara. Was the serious part after he thought the curse was broken but Emma did not come find him? Remember, the curse breaks and several weeks go by while Snow and Emma are trapped in FTL. So we don’t know what Neal was doing in that period—perhaps he got the postcard and waited, and then just before Manhattan, he and Tamara get engaged. Tamara is the one who says how they met (and lies doing it—she was not late for work!), and sums it up that she called him to return his scarf, and then they were together ever since. Worst case, though, it is as Phee said—Neal took the easy path, because he was a damaged, hurt and hopeless guy.
So I agree, from Emma’s perspective, Neal didn’t work to win her love, but by the same token, that’s the thing about love, it is not one person’s fight, but both. He left her, but it cost him dearly to do it too, and he did it for her. So I’m not entirely sure who “had” to find the other in that situation, given that Neal was duped by August in some ways.“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
(Part II)Again, cutting off the paragraphs I’d want to quote to first sentence to cut length.
In not going after her because he was afraid, he didn’t take into account her feelings and wonder how much damage he had done to her.
Yes, they could have had closure, or it could have gone like his reunion with his father—just anger and more mess, because there’s nothing to say. Again, if Neal thought August would prep Emma on the backstory, it really puts what he did in a slightly different light. If Emma already knew why he left her, why seek her out for closure? The ball would have been in her court more or less. Maybe Neal should have trusted Pinnochio of all people less,and taken more responsibility to contact Emma, but again, Neal is hurt and damaged too.
The fact that it took her finding him I think is what bugs her the most.
He had centuries if he believed what Hook said about Milah—and I’m not sure Bae did believe Hook, or as I said earlier, that Neal believes the abandoned want to be found. At least he had a “good” reason, in that he was trying to help Emma, not to be selfish, but he wasn’t sure if she would understand that. I think that it took her finding him isn’t what bugs HER the most—it is what bugs you as a viewer the most. She went to Tallahassee for 2 years. She presumably went there to find him (on the official podcast, A&E say its probably safe to assume that). So I’m not sure she felt he had to come find her, and he may have expected her to get the story from August, and find him if she wanted to see him. When he finally confesses he wanted to look, but was afraid—she doesn’t say anything but that she is sorry too. She doesn’t say to him “I waited for you. What hurt the most wasn’t that you left, its that you never came back to at least tell me why.” This is of course, one of those things people can see differently—so there’s no wrong or right way to look at it unless we get more scenes.
Which is what brings me back to the conversation in Manhattan where he did tell her what happened with Pinocchio but still wanted her to go and quickly so that Rumple wouldn’t find him.
He seemed in such a hurry to get rid of her that he insisted they go sit down and he ordered beers? She was the one who rushed through that conversation. She is the one that says why he did stuff doesn’t matter as she is over it and him, and to come on as she has a deal to bring him to Rumpel.
I suppose at this point he had already made up his mind about not going to find her and had chosen to move on and I commend him for sticking to that even though Tamara is EVIL, but he didn’t even confirm that he loved her too back then but just felt that it was the right thing to do, even when she told him how much it hurt because she loved him so much (and she was so obviously hurt and pouring out her heart about her feelings from back then and he never backed that up).
A guy who isn’t smooth with expressing emotions? The horrors! You have just pointed out the very thing that gets Cosomo to have a column dedicated to what guys really mean when they say stuff.
They both said I love you in the past, and he told her he was not conning her. Yes it would have been nice if he said I loved you too outright—but the problem is I think he did not want to say it in the past tense and was not free to admit he still did love her in the present tense either.Again, I do appreciate that he was in a bad place and didn’t think he had a shot but it’s that lack of faith in them as a couple that is so infuriating to me.
If you go and look at the other couples, you will notice that if you stopped the story in the middle, these couples show lack of faith at times too, until things change and something inspires them to go find the other. Belle meets Grumpy and Mulan, and decides to go fight for Rumpel. Snow drinks a potion to forget Charming—and he has a tough time getting her back. Charming decides to help Abigail and Fredrick or die trying in the Siren’s lake, because he lost hope. So just because Neal and Emma are not playing their story out in one season, does it mean he’s taking too long to show faith? I don’t think so. I think its just that the writers want to drag this out longer.
Emma has a hard time letting anyone in because she’s been abandoned and it took her a long time with Snowing but she got there so there’s definitely hope.
There’s sacrifice in her parents story too—and she has seen Neal’s willingness to put his life on the line for her at the portal, as well as to give up his own happiness for her. So while I see what you’re saying about wanting someone to fight for her—it’s not like Neal has done the opposite at all. He faced his father for her. He grabbed her, while shot, to prevent her falling in the portal. Now that he knows she does still love him, now he can begin to fight to be with her.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
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