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David screwed up but got his Charming memories back right before leaving town.
When the curse broke and Snow and David were standing together, so it wasn’t really a matter of choice to say Snow would never forgive him—they started kissing right away, didn’t they? Yes, Emma has seen her parents story play out, and it may play out in influencing her somewhat—but at the same time, she’s not a little girl, she’s a grown woman. They may be her parents, but her personality, her wants, her needs are her own. True love is different for everyone in some ways, because people are different. Yes, Emma says the choice is important—but up until the portal she was adamant she was not a choice he could have. So I think we have to wait and see how the rest of it is written. You can’t stop the story in the middle and compare it to a story that finished that romance arc with the wedding.
She’s had her moments of weakness and almost leaving (just like Charming and Hook and Neal) but the difference is that Charming got to the edge of town and Emma got to the edge of town and Hook had his ship almost out of sight but they all came back and fought for Snow and Henry and Hook came back to help save a town full of people who hated and betrayed him (on behalf of Emma and Bae). Neal knew when he could come back and fight for it when Emma would have her family back and everything would be alright and he chose not to – that is a stark difference for me.
Hook only had to “come back” because he helped make the mess that put those lives in danger, and ran away with their only way out in the first place. THAT is a stark difference to me. I give him loads of credit for turning around. I even agree Emma’s words affected him. The thing is, it was too late by the time he did it. If Henry had not been kidnapped, then his turning around wouldn’t have even helped anyone. As I said, it wasn’t clear to me that Neal “knew” when he could come back and fight to be with Emma—since it wasn’t a question of fighting but respecting her wishes if she really did not want to have anything to do with him. I keep going back to Charming in What Happened to Frederick—“You can’t fight for what doesn’t exist.” Love is a two way street. Both sides have to want it, have to fight for it, and absent magic to bolster your own doubts and fears—it’s a little tougher in the real world to be sure.
Charming had no problem waiting 28 years, Hook’s been waiting centuries to avenge the woman he loved and was fine with waiting the 28 years in that dome thing Cora put up, and Neal had to wait what, 12? and chose not to try to make it work.
Time in those 28 years, as well as in NL isn’t the same as in the real world. Cora said time would be frozen there by the way. Yes, that means he lost faith, but as I said above—it happened to other couples too.
Emma’s been fighting for family her whole life and has finally found it and will now fight for them no matter what.
He didn’t know she went looking for him. Emma hasn’t fought for her family her whole life! She even choked when August tried to get her to believe—she said she didn’t ask for it, any of it. She didn’t want to be the savior. She wanted to find her family, she wondered yes—but we don’t see her searching or anything. I realize you want to tie Emma’s personality to that quote of Hook’s that you have to fight for what you want. Yet this quote of his doesn’t really fit what Emma has been about “her whole life”. She’s been about looking out for herself, then with Neal looking out for each other, then after that, not trusting people. She wasn’t receptive when Henry came to find her. She didn’t fight for him at first, until she realized something was off about Regina. Then yes, she dug in a little—but it wasn’t so easy, and part of it I think was just sheer stubbornness. Also remember, she planned to leave, and Henry had left something in the car so she turned back, then her car crashed. Then she tried to leave again at the end of season 1 when she realized the fight itself was causing harm to Henry. Sometimes, fighting isn’t a good idea—but then the turnover happened and she believed, and the curse broke.
Emma fought tooth and nail for Henry to save him.
See above paragraph. Emma is tough, but she has at times expressed doubt and wanted to quit various things—perhaps tied into her moving around so much too. I think she does understand those who feel forced to walk away—since she had to do it too and she has now seen what caused Snow and Charming to leave her. She also knows that some fights are too stacked to win or that too many people get hurt if you keep fighting.
In fact I think it hurts her more because one of the things that really tied her with Neal is the fact that they were both abandoned and wanted to save each other from being alone. To have someone who knows what it feels like do that to her was excruciating and the last straw before her walls went up. It seemed, (from the brief highlight reel that we got in Tallahassee) that she opened up to him fairly quickly and I’m sure that common bond was a huge part of it. That would have been a huge slap in the face, regardless of the reasons, but the reasons would have helped.
Exactly why Neal found it hard to imagine she would forgive him!
That quote to MM from back in S1 about wanting something vs choosing to do something about it speaks volumes to me about Emma’s character which is why I have trouble believing she’d be so OK with this so quickly *at this point.*
See above—those words of “I love you” were ripped out of her thinking she’d never get another chance. Yet they did have offscreen conversations, that perhaps were not dramatic enough or because of other plots and pacing were not shown to us. We have to infer, and when we do that, of course we all infer different things.
My point about being 2nd choice is that I agree on Neal’s side that Emma was his first choice, but he gave up on that first choice, moved on to choice #2 and choice #2 is what Emma is seeing in front of her.
She breaks into his room, and he’s like, ok fine, look. He goes with her to the beach even—he’s giving her leeway. If he were really fighting hard for Tamara, he’d have told her to get the obscenity out of his room and come back only with a warrant. Well, pointless in SB but we know Emma’s original plan wasn’t even to bring any of this up to Neal until she HAD proof. She didn’t intend for him to believe her just on her ability alone, no matter how much she may pride herself on it. I disagree that he was ignoring everything he knew of her, but as others have discussed, he didn’t want to believe what she was saying was true, it didn’t make logical sense, it didn’t make emotional sense to him. Again, this was not about “choosing” between the two of them, as Emma unlike MM and David was not trying to be in a relationship with Neal! She was doing the exact opposite, at every turn, she told him she was over him, told him he didn’t matter, didn’t care he was dating someone. So it was not put to him as a stark choice A or B, who do you believe, me or her? He was looking for other explanations for the things that Emma felt were wrong. Part of her reason for suspicion was the list, and of course, Neal had helped Tamara to write it, but by then, she’d already broken in to look for more evidence.
I realize there wasn’t a lot of time between finding out that Tamara was up to no good and the ILYs since the two events happened back to back thanks to the portal. I do however feel that it rushed everything and there wasn’t a lot of build up to that moment. There was obvious jealousy along the way, but as much as Emma waits til the last second to declare feelings, it still seemed VERY rushed to me for SF given that it was immediately after Neal’s relationship with Tamara ended (and very badly and not by Neal’s choice).
Yes, it was rushed. That is why I feel it was not speaking to intentions for the future or a complete acknowledgement that all was forgiven –and I think I’ve read enough SF posts to say in general people were surprised too.
I didn’t see that coming and felt a lack of build up to make that moment really payoff and seem legitimate for the people they are today and not just the idea of what they once were. If anything it felt more like closure than the start of something, especially since they both basically acknowledged the idea he was about to die. It felt like they were finally BOTH admitting that they felt something for each other once and this was their goodbye, without having to address any of the issues along the way because they did genuinely have feelings and it was nice to finally hear him say that he felt that way too.
There were clues that each still had feelings. She remembers that he hates mayo and points it out to Tamara! There’s all the people thinking they still have torches for each other. There’s the dreamcatcher in his room, and the fact she kept the bug and keychain (though those are ties to Henry, and the betrayal too, so we can discount them a little). There’s other little things too, like the way she seeks out his opinion on going “home” to FTL. Yet I do agree, the ILYs were not an expression of future intention to be together and did come rather fast.
[adrotate group="5"]“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Part IV of response to MysteryKat’s post…
I’m really really hopeful that we see him fighting really hard to come after her and get back to his family and that it makes me want to root for him with her more. I like the character and have hope for him, my issues truly just stem around his relationship with Emma. The only time I’ve ever felt like he actually fought for her was when he went back to the apartment and interrupted Rumple. He did have a sword and fight side by side with her in Gold’s shop, but he jumped out of the way and Charming jumped in front of Emma when a fireball was thrown her way.
He was getting out of the way of Charming’s sword. The fact that Charming gets to have a heroic moment before being thrown out of the fight entirely is probably more what that moment meant, than hey, look Neal is cowardly! Neal stands by Emma and keeps fighting even when Charming and Snow are gone, so I don’t think there’s much to this “he jumped out of the way” argument. Neal hasn’t been in a FTL standoff in decades. He probably hasn’t even been practicing with a sword—so I think it took way more guts than Charming’s willingness to stand there and fight as Charming and Emma at least were more prepared for that sort of thing.
I’m not sure how many obstacles they can endure when everything so far was mostly against the things that Emma seems to need in her life as it stands today (her needs were very different as a teenager). Their relationship in the past was sweet, but I feel like they’re different people now and the Emma that we’ve gotten to know over the last couple of seasons isn’t the same girl she was when she was with Neal.
I agree with this. They’ve both grown and need to know who they are as people—and they of course now both have Henry to think about.
At times I feel like Emma would be reverting when she’s so awesome as the person she is now. When Emma thought about running away from all the craziness in SB, MM said the following in 1×21: “And running is what’s best for him [Henry]? Or is that what’s best for you? You’re reverting, Emma, into the person you were before you got here; and I thought you’d changed.” Which to me says “I thought you were better than that and you’re just becoming the person you were before” and that’s basically how I feel *currently* going back to Neal without much fuss would come across. It’s a sweet story if they can find their way back, I just need it to be realistic. The real world is not a fairy tale and Emma spent 99% of her life in the real world. Her life is not as cut & dried as some of the others are.
Yet, it is a story taking place not entirely IN the real world, with many fantasy based problems causing all of the issues. Tamara wasn’t an ordinary woman with ordinary aims—it was a huge con that she was with Neal! So this point of view ignores the extraordinary things happening in the story.
They also seem to me to want different things other than to be in Henry’s life and I really do believe that they are different people now and need to learn to co-exist for Henry’s sake.
I agree with the point about being different people—as said above. I don’t agree about Emma pinning all that Tamara did on Neal. She knows he had no idea that Tamara was evil. He was played, they all were played by both Tamara and Greg, and none of them saw it coming, until Emma suspected Tamara. Emma totally dropped the ball on Greg.
They have an uphill climb but it’s certainly not impossible.
I agree, co-parenting is still on the table, and they don’t need to be together to both be in Henry’s lives.
I have faith in the writers that with more screentime, the more we know the better I’ll like them. They’ve set up a great triangle and I see compelling arguments for both sides and it should be interesting to watch it play out.
I’m not sure they have exactly set up a triangle. I agree it is possible they could—but the thing with Tallahasse is, it was deceptive. They showed that in that episode that Emma and Hook had a connection—but we didn’t realize when we saw it that they literally had a connection in Neal. She did not fall in love with him on the beanstalk (listen to the Tallahasee official podcast). Is he possibly attracted to her? Yes, I think so, but he is a pirate, and he has said some things that indicates that he’s more than willing to have relationships that are not true love and are just physical. Hook also says to Regina he felt they had a real connection before she backstabbed him—so I’m just not sure what is intentional foreshadowing and what was serving a moment in that plot. That said, they are aware of fan sentiments about CS, and apparently, the LOST writers redid one relationship based on fan response. They certainly have not ruled out CS, and the actors have talked about the connection and attraction. I just did not see much follow up in the story after Tallahassee.
I’d like to think that at the end, we’ll all be able to root for Emma’s true love story because it will be epic and beautiful and shown to us enough that it’s obvious and none of these lingering issues remain and I think that will be the case. I truly do see the appeal of both sides, I just have a preference that is somewhat unpopular around here.
Yes, and it is with respect that I take the time to answer your post and read every single word, and try to answer as best I can rather then dismiss what you are saying. It just is really long so I may have lost a few things.
You have seen some things in the scenes and interviews that puts CS in a different category than other spec ships, and as I said, some of these things I agree and see too as possibilities. I do see a story that could form between Hook and Emma that is far more than eye candy, more about redemption through Love. I see how Hook’s dedication to Milah makes it likely he would be loyal and dedicated to his next love (and don’t believe he couldn’t ever love again), which Emma deserves. He can be brave, and he is resourceful. Emma could provide the moral conscience he kind of lacks, and a home and purpose. I even think he would be good with Henry. What I’m not sure about though, is Neal. I’d be more open to CS if SF happens first, and its written really believably that they can’t work it out without Hook being an issue at all until after SF is clearly over—but right now, I’m rooting for them to work it out. As I said, before Neal and Emma admitted anything, when he was with Tamara, I felt she was “free” to be with Hook but the ILYs sort of changed things for me, even though it wasn’t future intention ILYs.
The Snowing/Abigail triangle was obvious, the MAP triangle *should* be obvious as a TLK woke Aurora up etc.
We don’t know, but as I said, there are a lot of people who totally miss that Hook is an option for Emma, because after Tallahassee, there wasn’t a lot of pairing of the two. So it seemed like that quote from long ago, “fun in Vegas” where Vegas = Beanstalk. It was a moment that passed, and the purpose it served was to distract you during the episode into thinking that Emma was falling for him and that he would betray her. I was saying “No Emma, don’t fall for it!” and then she didn’t trust him, but the twist was–he was being sincere! So it takes a lot of explanation of his motivations and actions too, to understand that there could be something romantic between them given that he aligned himself with Cora and has generally been out for himself. The reason isn’t “Neal is alive!” it is that they still love each other and always have but other things have come between them, like the curse and this PP/HO thing.
Emma’s is the one love story that we can see play out and not officially know who it will be because we haven’t grown up knowing her story.
I agree with this. That there is a good deal of interpretation required to see some of the aspects of both ships does not make anyone delusional.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I think what it comes down to is that every single character on this show is flawed. Everyone has made poor choices at one time or another. They are human! (Or at least human for storybook characters- ha ha.) Every relationship on the show has faced problems, and every established relationship is valid.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
The point I was trying to make about Emma’s quote to MM in 1×06 about wanting someone vs making a choice to do something about it still reads to me as Neal said he wanted her all that time but didn’t show her that. He chose not to wait for her and come back to say it (and never had any intention of doing so).
I do think he waited. He waited for 11 years. He anticipated for 11 years. And I think it’s very telling that it was only when the moment of truth was upon him that that’s when he committed to someone else. To me, that doesn’t say that he genuinely fell in love with Tamara. The timing of it says to me that the relationship with Tamara was a result of him being scared.
Also, let’s not discount Tamara’s role in all of this. I’m sure she was VERY persuasive and manipulative when she dug her claws into him. The success of her mission relied completely on her being attached to him. So I’ll bet she was the most sweet, lovely, understanding, attentive, loved up girlfriend a boy could ever hope for, to ensure that he couldn’t let her go. From the instant they met she was playing up being vulnerable by being all clutsy and spilling her drink.
Nealfire believes in things being destined. He was standing there in the street thinking, “Much as I’d kill to see Emma again, I’ll bet she hates me. She’s with her family now, that’s what she wanted, so maybe I shouldn’t go, because it would upset her to see me.” Then in that instant, along comes a sweet girl, literally running into him. For someone who believes in fate, that could have very well looked like, “this is a sign from the universe that my gut feeling about Emma hating me and it being best for me to stay away is right, and this nice Tamara girl is who I’m supposed to be with instead.” (For the record, I’m one of those types who doesn’t believe that coincidence is actually random coincidence, I believe it’s some force out there conspiring to show us things we need to see, sort of how our subconscious forces us to address things by bringing them up in dreams. The meaning isn’t always obvious, but these coincidental things in life happen for a reason.)
And I’m also thinking that she would have been the one to bring up the possibility of marriage. Once she had that ring, she had some insurance that he’d be keeping her around, so she could get to SB. She even said to Greg that as soon as the job was done, the ring was coming off. That ring was just the hook that she had Nealfire snagged on, but in order to get it, she’d had to be incredibly convincing.
I don’t believe that Nealfire ever honestly, deeply loved Tamara. I think he tried to convince himself that he should, and I think that he had a great amount of affection for her and believed her to be such a genuinely sweet, honest, loving person that he couldn’t find anything to put in the “con list” that was major enough to convince him that she wasn’t worth sticking with. Until she went and shot him and stuff.
That’s why I don’t see it as a big deal bad thing that he only professed his love for Emma once Tamara had shown her true colours, and that it happened immediately after. He instantly felt the weight of obligation towards Tamara lift off him, and that left him free to finally be honest. Him losing Tamara wasn’t the end of a real relationship, he won’t mourn losing her the way a person would typically mourn the end of an engagement. It’ll hurt him like hell that he fell for her lies, and had been doing so from the instant they’d met. It’ll hurt him like hell that she used him. But all those things considered, it’d actually be a relief for him to be rid of her.
Neal says he regretted it every day and wanted to be with her, but he’s only in her life now because she found him
Don’t forget though that Emma didn’t go to NYC with the intention of finding her long lost love. As far as we know, she stopped looking for him after the two years in Tallahassee. Then she decided he was a bad guy and a lost cause, and she moved on with her life. Maybe she was always keeping an eye and an ear out for leads to him through the years, I wouldn’t blame her if she did, but judging by what she told Henry about him, and even when she told Regina that there was no father, she’d managed to convince herself that she wasn’t eager for a reunion to ever happen. The fact that she found him in NYC was complete coincidence, (and I’ve already explained how I feel about “coincidence”).
So I’m not sure that that would read as a positive choice to her – his past choice makes sense because of the greater good. Choosing not to come to her after that, even if he thought it would hurt both of them more, was still a choice to not give her the benefit of the doubt and have faith in them. Emma doesn’t like being controlled and once again, she wasn’t left to make up her own mind about things because he made it up for her by not giving her the chance.
I really think it’s more himself that Nealfire doesn’t have faith in. If you don’t feel that you’re worthy of something, you’re beaten before you even start. He didn’t believe he was good enough for her. He didn’t believe he had anything but misery and dredging up old hurt to offer her. And he loved her, so he didn’t want to put her through that, especially now when she’d finally been reunited with the family she’d always longed for. Her chance had finally come to be happy, and if he was there, he’d just screw it up.
Granted, Emma should have been able to make that choice for herself, but what’s done is done, and when Nealfire comes back again, Emma will have the opportunity to make her own decisions about their future.
Neal knows what it’s like to hear that someone regretted leaving him but never tried to do anything to fix that. Emma tried to fix it when he HE left HER and he never did which is what bugs me.
Brand new thought that just popped into my head…I’d love it if some day we get a flashback to Emma’s time in Tallahassee, and it turns out he was there, maybe he even saw her, but he kept out of her sight. This would no doubt infuriate people who already have issues with him even more. But my perspective would be that it would show that he was tempted, show that he wanted desperately to be near her, and really struggled with staying away, especially now that she’d come to look for him, even though he knew that leaving her is what he had to do for the sake of her getting back to her family and saving everyone from FTL. And then if one day he watched her leave Tallahassee, that would have been his sign that she was over it, over him, over their dream, and was moving on, which is why he now firmly believes that she wouldn’t want to forgive him. (Dammit, sometimes I really wish I knew how to write fanfic.)
I honestly think it would have better for everyone if he was just honest with himself and had broken up with Tamara
Well obviously, but that wouldn’t have made for lots of angsty TV. 😉
The point I was making about him almost leaving but coming back when he got his memories – yes, it was exceptional circumstances so I get why it may not be considered a direct parallel, but he still knew he had done horrible things even though they were out of his control and immediately went back to her (not knowing at the time that she too had done things and they were fine) but the point was that he knew he hadn’t been the kindest to MM and hurt her deeply but still went back and believed in them.
Again though, I just see that situation as being too exceptional to be compared to anything else. Charming had had the revelation that the lives they’d been living were fake because they were in a cursed town inside a magical bubble. Everyone in that town has lived with magic before, and understands how it can influence life. SF spent their entire time together in our world without magic, and while Nealfire may be aware of how magic can influence the course of life, Emma had no clue, and he was well aware of that. All Emma had to judge their situation by were real world rules, and if you’re just judging Nealfire’s actions using real world rules, he comes off looking pretty crappy, so going back for her was an incredibly daunting prospect.
He’s spent enough time in this world to know that people here think that fairytales and magic are fiction. He knows Emma well enough to know that she’s jaded and cynical and not inclined to believe in magical rubbish being real, (“Like where, Neverland? 🙄 “). So he couldn’t just rock up and expect her to believe him. He had no insight into what had been happening to her in SB, and how her opinions may have changed. He only knew that she wasn’t the type to instantly believe in magical explanations and solutions, so it would be an impossible battle to have a positive reunion with her if he was trying to use magic to explain his actions to someone he was convinced already hated him.
All Emma knows is what she sees and the people she loves that fight to be together even when they’re forced apart for a bit, and the *belief* and *faith* that they can overcome anything and that their love is strength and nobody can keep them apart. The moment they could be back together, Snowing made it happen. The moment that Neal could run back to Emma and explain everything, he didn’t.
Despite what I just said above, you are right in that he did still have the option to try. I may be able to completely understand why he didn’t, but yes, the option was there. So let’s say he made a bad decision in not instantly going back for her. He made a huge mistake that he regrets. Who hasn’t made a mistake in life that they regret? Does that mean he doesn’t get a chance to now do the right thing? We’re not at the end of Nealfire’s story yet, not by a long shot, so give the guy a chance and see what his next move is. I believe that he’ll learn from the regret of not having gone back to her and won’t want to make the same mistake again. The odds are stacked even more against him now, given that they’re in separate worlds, so it will be a huge deal if he manages to cross worlds to get back to her this time.
I would really hate for her to get Neal’s hopes up (and Henry’s and Rumple’s etc etc) and then come to the realization that it’s just not what it once was and they’re different people now.
Something that was no doubt playing on her mind when she was constantly trying to tell everyone that she didn’t still have feelings for him. If she said it enough times, maybe she’d believe it herself and they could avoid any potential fallout that would hurt them both, as well as Henry. Nealfire may have been evasive with his true feelings in SB because he was completely unsure of their situation, but Emma was totally doing the same thing.
I certainly don’t want a mirror situation to what happened with Milah/Hook because I’m already dreading Neal’s reaction to seeing Emma & Hook be close, even if it’s just as friends. He blames Hook for “taking” Milah away from him (I blame Milah for this, really hate her), but he already thinks of Hook as the pirate who broke up his family and I don’t see him reacting well at all to Hook being in Emma’s life in any capacity, much less Henry’s (even though his last choice of love interest tried to kill everyone and kidnapped Henry who Hook is doing his best to save right now, even putting aside his vendetta with Rumple which is on Bae’s mother’s behalf for crying out loud). Nobody is perfect, I’m just seriously dreading a confrontation that isn’t even about Emma or her ability to choose but rather the implication that Hook is once again destroying Neal’s hopes of a happy family/life.
This is something I actually am looking forward to because I love how angst ridden the CaptainFire relationship is. 😈
My ideal scenario has Nealfire initially being hurt and angry over Hook infiltrating his family again, and Emma telling him to suck it up because like it or not, Hook is her friend, and he’s played a vital role in saving Henry. Nealfire will insist that he’s known Hook longer, and he can never change. Emma will insist that she knows him better and he’s actually a decent guy.
Hook is already proving that he’s willing to make a serious attempt at change by turning that boat around. It was remembering his interactions with Bae, and the kid’s belief that he couldn’t change, that made him decide to honour Bae’s memory by proving him wrong in that statement. So Hook will be changing for the better, and then Nealfire will show up and not believe he’s genuine, and Emma will insist he is. Hook will then have to fight to prove himself to Nealfire, (we all know that Hook believes in a man fighting for what he wants, and this is his new goal to fight towards), and I believe (hope) that in the end, Nealfire will see that and they’ll truly make amends and end up as friends.
In the midst of all of that, when Hook sees how passionate Nealfire is about protecting Emma from the lying pirate, it will also be evident that Emma is still incredibly emotionally invested in their relationship as well. So even if Hook has been pursuing Emma up until that point, I think he’d take a step back.
I’m really quite torn on how the triangle has to play out just because I feel like if they wanted us to root for Neal they wouldn’t have setup awesome potential for Hook, and likewise if they wanted to show the difference between Neal and Hook they wouldn’t set up Neal as the fall guy who just keeps getting stomped on by life. He can’t seem to catch a break and I feel for him I do, I just don’t care for his relationship with Emma and I see loads of potential in why Hook would be good for her. I won’t go into all of that here as we’re discussing an actual former couple and most don’t want to hear it anyway, but just as SF fans see a much more complex situation with Neal, I see more in Hook than just good looks and innuendos.
Personally, I see potential for CS to ultimately be BFFs. I’m not ruling out a brief, romantic entanglement in there somewhere before she gets back with Neal, but if that does happen, I envision it ending on amicable terms where they both realise that while they do share a genuine understanding of each other, they’re not meant to be a couple.
Much of what CS shippers unearth as similarities that form a bond between them, I don’t disagree with. They do have similar issues, they do get each other on a personal level, they don’t have to explain themselves because in some ways they share a brain, and so they’ll be able to accept and understand each other, warts and all. You need friends like that in life. That’s why I said in my previous paragraph that Emma will tell Nealfire to suck it up if he wants her to break off all contact with Hook. I could see Emma insisting that Hook has been there for her, and she for him, (in the most delicious irony, I think that both of them grieving the loss of Nealfire will be what brings them closer together), so she’s gonna fight for their friendship just as much as Nealfire will be fighting for his relationship with her. And in the end, after much angst, all three of them will end up friends.
That’s a slice of my current headcanon.
I think once they’re all reunited, Emma will push all emotional problems to the side and focus on ____ (insert whatever bigger picture problem here). That’s what she did with Snowing, and I fully expect her to need more time to come to grips with Neal being alive and what that means in her world right now than just seeing him.
I think that their relationships will inevitably develop in the process of whatever action is going on storywise. Emma’s quest for true love may not be the primary focus of the show, (I hope it’s not), but how they all relate to each other will be a constant undercurrent.
They haven’t been together in a long time but she now knows her instincts weren’t wrong back then when she felt that connection with him. This may lead her closer to Hook in some capacity because we know she initially wanted to trust him but was too afraid to because of her past with Neal. That all started before Neal came back into the picture so it’s not her finding a rebound and she’s got more important things to focus on anyway. It does however help with her instinct of trust and may let her open back up again with Hook around as she was already drawn to him earlier but afraid to trust herself.
This is why I think that CS developing a close friendship is ultimately a vital step in Emma being fully prepared to reunite with Nealfire. Lessons she learns through her involvement with Hook would give her the confidence boost to be able to move forward with Nealfire again. And on the flipside, their closeness will allow Hook to be able to be vulnerable with a woman again, something he’s been resisting for a looooonnng time, so he can’t just snap is fingers and be emotionally healed and ready for lurve again, he’s gotta learn that it’s safe for him to open his heart up again, and Emma can help him with that, because she already understands him. I don’t wanna classify CS as a “stepping stone” relationship in that regard though, because I think that implies that it would be a short lived thing, and my hope is that they have an ongoing involvement with each other, just not in the romantic sense.
One of her last moments with him before that is seeing him be hurt that Tamara, the woman he loved and needed so badly he asked her to come to SB to be with him (in front of Emma) break his heart, shoot him, then send him through a portal and it took all of that to get him to tell her what she told him ages ago? She opened the door wide open in Manhattan and he even could have clarified it with something along the lines of “I loved you too but I was doing what was best for everyone and it gave you what you wanted: your family back” and even gone so far as to say “but that was a long time ago and I’ve moved on and am engaged now” but he obviously didn’t want to have to mention that part. He could have easily acknowledged that he did love her *back then* just like she had just done without stepping on Tamara’s toes in the slightest.
First of all, I totally understand wishing Nealfire had phrased things differently because, “This world wasn’t my first stop,” could have so easily been “This world wasn’t my only stop,” and it would have saved so many of us so much *headdesk*ing and OMG I wanna slap whoever wrote that line. Ahem, sorry for the detour, back to the topic at hand…
In the case of him not including the word “love” in any capacity in that bar scene though, it really doesn’t bother me, because at that immediate point in time, if he uttered that word in her presence, even if it was used in past tense, that would have been like uncorking a shook up champagne bottle and ALL HIS FEELS would have instantly come rushing back. And with Tamara in the picture now, and his commitment to her, he simply couldn’t afford to risk going there with Emma.
As for his true feelings about Tamara, I covered that at the start of my post.
I’m not sure if closure was the right word on my part because I didn’t mean that it was necessarily the end of all things but rather that it was closure on a chapter of the past where she was doubting that he ever cared about her even though she felt so certain that he did. It was nice to actually hear him say it and when things have affected you for so long and made you doubt yourself over the years, it’s nice to get confirmation that you weren’t imagining things back then and more importantly that your instincts are right – that’s a huge thing for Emma as she relies on those and we have seen her go against them because she wants to believe in something / is afraid to believe because of prior experiences. Whether it moves them forward or helps her as a person more forward because she finally got that confirmation, it needed to happen.
Confirmation is a good word, yes. He’d recently snarked about not having believed in her instinct, and she was all, “Oh plz, you so did believe it.” His feelings for her were something that she needed to have had the correct instinct about, and now she knows for sure that she was right. Faith in superpower officially restored. I think that proves that they have something very real to use as a basis to build the future of their relationship on.
Looking at it from Emma’s point of view, I’m sure she feels like she’s been slapped in the face a few times because she never doubted them. She fought for them back then (and again after jail in waiting in Tallahassee for 2 years)
From the time she was in jail, through the years in Tallahassee, and everything since then, right up to current events, she’s been coming at their relationship from the opposite point of view to what he has. She is the one who was wronged, she is the one who was hurt, she was the victim and he was the perpetrator (for want of two better words, because those feel a bit harsh, but I’m trying to illustrate the starkly opposite perspectives of the situation).
She is the one who is in a position to decide whether forgiveness is warranted or not, that’s not up to him, and in his own mind, he’s convinced himself that the way he hurt her will be perceived by her as something utterly unforgiveable. So is it any wonder that he was choc full of doubts and afraid to face her, even if those fears weren’t really necessary?
He couldn’t read her mind, he could only imagine what he’d feel in her position, and he concluded that she’d hate him. He confessed to her on the beach that he was too afraid to look for her and she actually had to ask, “Of what?” His fear hadn’t occurred to her before then, but now he’s spelled it out for her and straight up told her, “That you would never forgive me, because I never forgave myself.” So now she knows his mindset, which she hadn’t during all of their previous interactions since Manhattan that had been all awkward and weird and confusing. When you realise the other person’s side of an argument and you’re able to consider it, it gives you a new understanding of the overall situation, (this is true of any situation in life). Now that she knows his mindset, that in turn will inevitably change her understanding of what’s gone on between them since Manhattan.
She’s a tough person and deserves an epic romance (and I think she’ll get it for sure), I’m just not sure backtracking is the answer.
Well, like I’ve said previously, I wouldn’t see it as “backtracking”, I’d see it as a continuation of a relationship that had to inevitably be put on pause.
Phee I LOVE your comment about Colin & MRJ. It is SO refreshing to hear somebody say that argument can be thrown out the window!
😆 Feel free to use me as an example if anyone tries to pick that fight with you again. #Mythbusters
Egad, when I previewed this post I saw KFC’s contributions to the discussion. Guess that’s my reading sorted for this evening. 😆
KFC, I know I’m already marrying another one of your posts, but I’ll be having torrid affairs on the side with this latest batch. 😉
I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me.
I see it differently. What hurt Bae was that they left—not that they didn’t come back. He didn’t ask them to come back, he wasn’t waiting for them to come, and with Rumpel, he was avoiding him because he had too much anger to ever want to speak to him again. He thought Milah was dead until Hook told him, so that was more complicated. I’ll have to rewatch that scene, but I took out of it that Bae was more angry that Hook lied to him and “stole” his mother and wanted to kill his father, than he was hurt that Milah had never come back for him.
Just went for a rewatch of that scene, (a few times, so I could get the dialogue right…and now I’m emo…how is it that I can care so little for Milah, and yet my heart breaks when I hear Hook talk about loving her…well played, Mr O’Donoghue)…
Bae: Face me, villain!
Hook: What’s this about, Bae?
Bae: I found this, on your desk. It’s – it’s my mother. How did you get it?
Hook: Bae –
Bae: HOW?! You’re the pirate that killed her!
Hook: I didn’t kill your mother. We fell in love. We ran off together. Your father lied to you, he was too much of a coward to tell you the truth. He tore her heart out, and crushed it in front of me, and I’ve spent every moment since then wanting revenge.
Bae: She abandoned me.
Hook: Not a single day went past when your mother didn’t regret leaving you, Baelfire. We talked about going back for you when you were old enough. Perhaps fate brought us together so I could make good on those plans. We can live the life that Milah wanted for us, as a family.
Bae: NO! Stay back! You used me! You wanted to kill my father!
Hook: Yes, I did.
Bae: You tore apart my family, as sure as if you’d ripped her heart out yourself.
Hook: Bae, don’t –
Bae: Take me back to my real family, the Darlings.
Hook: I – I – I can’t, it’s not possible to leave Neverland. But you could stay here, under my protection –
Bae: I’d rather fend for myself than be with you. I want off this ship, pirate.Bae didn’t really seem to care that Hook wanted to live out Milah’s happy family on the high seas dream. Even in the later scene, when it was nighttime, (meaning he’d had some time to think about it) and their conversation started out without all the screaming of the daytime scene, when Hook offered again, Bae still wanted no part of it.
Here on the forums, we the audience get pretty upset at her, but I’m not sure Bae was feeling additional pain that she had apparently had the option to come get him and chosen not to do it.
Bae was really young when she’d left, and as such, probably didn’t have a whole lot of clear memories of her. The stuff with his father had more of a lasting impact on him because he was old enough to process and remember it all.
When Gold and Henry talk, Henry thinks all that matters is that the person who left you returns to you—but that is NOT how Neal feels about it, and Gold suspected as much. All that mattered to Neal was that he had been abandoned and betrayed—and as he was not willing to forgive, he really did not believe Emma would either.
Such a great point! He wasn’t even ready to forgive and forget a couple 100 years after the fact, so how could Emma possibly be ready to forgive and forget after only 10 years? From Nealfire’s perspective, he was the Rumple in the situation with Emma – he was the one who let go and left someone alone. Considering how strongly he feels about what his father did, of course he’s gonna project that same hate onto himself in the situation with Emma.
So there’s that moment of hope on his face when he sees her in Manhattan, then it crashes down when he realizes—she doesn’t know! It’s interesting to see their conversation again, with the knowledge that August has not talked to either of them since the curse broke. He is confused why she tackled him on the street. He doesn’t know who Gold is. He’s angry she brought his father, as if he expected her to understand he has issues with Rumpel. He’s trying to process all of that, in the bar scene, and at the same time, Emma keeps making it clear she did not seek him out to renew their relationship. So he has to explain why he left, see the pain and hurt on her face, knowing there’s nothing he can do or say to get her to forgive.
This is what I’ve been sayin’, HOT MESS for real inside his head in that scene. SO much to process in the space of only about, let’s say 10mins, because they’d had enough time to walk down the street and have drinks poured.
I’m still puzzling through what Neal knew, what August knew, and how much of what they knew was actually true, and when they knew it. The timeline of the curse being broken, versus when Neal got into a romantic serious relationship with Tamara. Was the serious part after he thought the curse was broken but Emma did not come find him? Remember, the curse breaks and several weeks go by while Snow and Emma are trapped in FTL. So we don’t know what Neal was doing in that period—perhaps he got the postcard and waited, and then just before Manhattan, he and Tamara get engaged.
Oh, good question! Even if she had have known the whole truth, she wouldn’t have been able to do anything about it, on account of being back in FTL. That’s a good guess that perhaps when she didn’t come to find him, he took it as the final sign that she was over it, and then he proposed to Tamara. It’s really not unreasonable for him to have assumed that August had explained things to her, (he was going there with the purpose of making her believe the truth, after all), August could have even given her his address in NYC, and if so, why hadn’t she come? It’s funny, because looking back, we were all, “Why didn’t he go to SB as soon as he got that postcard?!” But looking at it now, it makes perfect sense that he didn’t.
If you go and look at the other couples, you will notice that if you stopped the story in the middle, these couples show lack of faith at times too, until things change and something inspires them to go find the other. Belle meets Grumpy and Mulan, and decides to go fight for Rumpel. Snow drinks a potion to forget Charming—and he has a tough time getting her back. Charming decides to help Abigail and Fredrick or die trying in the Siren’s lake, because he lost hope. So just because Neal and Emma are not playing their story out in one season, does it mean he’s taking too long to show faith? I don’t think so. I think its just that the writers want to drag this out longer.
Excellent point. Even the destined, EPIC, truest love of all, Snowing, had times when their relationship looked pretty much dead in the water.
They can’t resolve either Emma’s or Nealfire’s love lives by this early point in the show’s run. Never mind their love lives even, they can’t have either character have all of their own, personal issues sorted out yet, and those two have a whole bunch of issues that relate to each other, therefore their relationship is currently, understandably, a mess, but that doesn’t rule out the possibility for it to work out in the end. Neither one of them can be allowed to be emotionally well adjusted at this point. In TV land, things have to look dire or the payoff won’t be worth it. Things are currently incredibly dire for them both as individuals, as well as as a couple.
There’s sacrifice in her parents story too—and she has seen Neal’s willingness to put his life on the line for her at the portal, as well as to give up his own happiness for her. So while I see what you’re saying about wanting someone to fight for her—it’s not like Neal has done the opposite at all. He faced his father for her. He grabbed her, while shot, to prevent her falling in the portal. Now that he knows she does still love him, now he can begin to fight to be with her.
Yes! There are multiple facets to these relationships, multiple things Emma has witnessed, and as you say later in your post, at the end of the day, Emma’s own love story will be unique to her, not a mirror of anyone else’s relationship. We do look to our parents’ relationship for signs of what to do, or what not to do, but as with anything in life, we take from it what resonates with us personally, and make our own decisions. Emma has lots of stuff to consider.
Yes, Emma says the choice is important—but up until the portal she was adamant she was not a choice he could have. So I think we have to wait and see how the rest of it is written. You can’t stop the story in the middle and compare it to a story that finished that romance arc with the wedding.
Indeed, how many times did she say she had no interest? It was obvious that the lady doth protest too much, saying one thing to try and cover up another, but what was he supposed to do with the mixed messages? As to your last sentence in that paragraph: AMEN!
Emma is tough, but she has at times expressed doubt and wanted to quit various things—perhaps tied into her moving around so much too. I think she does understand those who feel forced to walk away—since she had to do it too and she has now seen what caused Snow and Charming to leave her. She also knows that some fights are too stacked to win or that too many people get hurt if you keep fighting.
Her parents gave her away to give her her best chance. She gave Henry away to give him his best chance. So yes, I think it’s safe to say that she’s well positioned to be able to understand that Nealfire had to give her away for a very good reason too. That doesn’t mean she has to like it, or deny that it hurt her like hell and messed with her head for years, but she does have the perspective to be able to understand the situation for what it is, and not hold it against him at the end of the day.
I agree with Angie and RG–there are flaws for many characters, and definitely, those that were abandoned have a tough journey to being able to accept that they will be loved and not left again. It’s not just Emma and Neal–many of the characters have a sad past. In fact, I think Charming may be the only one who had two loving parents and a relatively uncomplicated life, making him probably one of the most “issue free” halves of any of our pairs. The whole “pretend to be the dead twin brother you never knew for a nasty piece of work King” thing probably was a bit unnerving, but not traumatic.
Belle also doesn’t have obvious trauma–but there had to be something going on as we didn’t see her mother, and her father seemed rather heavy handed. She seemed eager to prove herself a hero.
@Phee wrote:
So I’ll bet she was the most sweet, lovely, understanding, attentive, loved up girlfriend a boy could ever hope for, to ensure that he couldn’t let her go. From the instant they met she was playing up being vulnerable by being all clutsy and spilling her drink.
😆 😯 😆 She may not have been using something magic-sciency on Neal, like love potion # 9 or the Siren’s illusions, but she definitely got his number (figuratively and literally) pretty quick. Girl knew how to play it.
@Phee wrote:
(For the record, I’m one of those types who doesn’t believe that coincidence is actually random coincidence, I believe it’s some force out there conspiring to show us things we need to see, sort of how our subconscious forces us to address things by bringing them up in dreams. The meaning isn’t always obvious, but these coincidental things in life happen for a reason.)
I just started watching Lost, and there’s a couple of lines in there about not mistaking fate for coincidence and vice versa. I keep that in mind, since there are things the writers intend (as they get to play “fate” as they write the story) but there are things they subconsciously do or that are inadvertently the same (the coincidences, that don’t mean anything).
Until she went and shot him and stuff.
See, Emma thought she and Neal had the worst break up ever, then she saw that, and said, well, guess jail and 12 years of no contact wasn’t so bad in the grand scheme. 😆 😉 I kid, I kid. Both really, really had to hurt a lot, and at least Neal had the comfort of knowing that he deep down he didn’t really want Tamara, he just hadn’t wanted to hurt her.
I agree with what you say Phee, that it was a weight lifted in some ways for Tamara to reveal it had all been a lie.To keep this from being too much about SF–what about the other breakups?
What was worse, Cora ripping her heart out or Milah pretending pirates had killed/raped/carried her off?I think the Milah thing was probably the worst. They were married, and he had no closure, he had to tell their kid their mother died, and she didn’t have any reason for putting him through that pain that was better than “I fell in twu wuv”. Tamara believed in a cause (even if we think she’s nutters) and Neal wanted to get Emma home and break the curse (even if Emma didn’t know and it shattered her what he did). Rumpel got closure with Cora at least–pretty tough stuff, but it was over and no wondering of why.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
What Milah did to Rump was pretty bad. But Rump was the kind of guy that was totally ignoring what was wrong with his marriage and ignored the fact that it was falling apart as each day went by. It really shouldn’t have been a surprise that one day she was gone. I think the worst part of their break up isn’t that she left him (because like I said, Rump had to have been blind to not see it coming) but that she left their child and made Rump do the dirty work of explaining what happened to mama to the poor kid.
I have to agree Schmacky–Rumpel should have seen it coming.
@Phee wrote:
KFC, I know I’m already marrying another one of your posts, but I’ll be having torrid affairs on the side with this latest batch. 😉
Thanks lol I had such a hard time posting it due to computer errors (apparently, I was embedding quotes within quotes, but couldn’t find them….this is why I am not a computer programmer!) –so makes me happy to know at least one person read it and enjoyed some things in it.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Well I had a nice long response last night before the computer decided to eat it and now there’s lots more to devour! I will try to make this brief because I can’t imagine doing the quoting thing at this point for the exact reasons KFChimera just mentioned! So forgive me if this is all a little scattered, hopefully I’ve managed to remember enough of what I wanted to address (I. Am. Fried.)
Edited to add: YAY the forums are working again AND it didn’t eat this post cause I was seriously about to just throw in the towel and cry.First off thank you EVERYONE for having such a nice in-depth discussion on SF (and for reading all of our ridiculously long posts and taking the time to comment!). I will agree that there are many many issues in everyone’s heads and that they all have a lot to work out but are probably interpreting everything differently (ie what someone said about Emma feeling like the victim and saying that Neal doesn’t get to be upset etc etc). They’ve both been through a lot and feel everything differently.
As I’ve tried to say before, I do think they have a chance and that’s what makes the triangle so rich because I really do believe that Emma will be close to Hook by the time they’re reunited and is already well on her way to forming a connection with him and was even before Neal came back which didn’t diminish because he was around and wasn’t affected by him being “dead”. Anything romantic is doubtful for whomever right now because she’s focused on saving Henry, but she wanted to open up to him before and certainly let him in faster than we’ve seen with anybody else post-Neal. They get each other and I like the idea (I believe it was Phee that said it? Maybe? That *eventually* Emma, Hook, and Neal will all be friends).
I at least envision them all getting along as much as everyone else does for Henry’s sake, but I think in this instance Emma will be the glue as much as he is. There are sure to be confusing feelings all over the place because of the history with Hook and Bae that needs to be sorted out just as much as any option for romance. I don’t expect Neal to have a good reaction to it at all because he blames Hook for his family falling apart.
Given his strong reaction to Rumple though I wonder what’s going through his head *now* as he was upset with Hook for wanting to kill him and then a couple hundred years later is running from him. I’m not sure how much of anything affected him and in what ways. He was told so often as a child that Milah was dead that he didn’t have much time to register what Hook was saying and I don’t think he wanted to believe it either because he loved his dad. In between then and now he’s been hiding from Rumple (until very recently) so things may have weighed on his head over time, especially if you add in what Hook told him to his nightmares of his dad letting go.
At this very moment I don’t see how either guy could easily be just friends with Emma to be honest. Neal made a go of it when he was with Tamara for Henry’s sake (and they got along great which gives me hope they can have a relationship of *any* kind down the line because HENRY was their focus) but the feelings were obviously still there (though the fact that they were still there and they were able to get past it enough for Henry is encouraging should he end up on the outside – though I do hope if he does he finds love as well and I think whoever is left will and they will be better suited for that person. As I said earlier, sure Rumple & Milah breaking had a massive affect on things, but they were not suited for each other at all. Rumple found his true love in Belle so I have hope for whoever gets left behind.)
On the flip side Hook & Emma have this connection and when she’s in a room she is literally all he looks at. If you go back and watch the finale he barely talks to anyone else and is constantly drawn to her. When he came back, he offered HER everything and then dealt with everyone. When a group saw the ship coming back, they focused on HER reaction.
Whether they can be friends down the line I just don’t know. I’m sure he’ll be just as confused as anyone when Neal returns even though he’s been drawn to Emma from the start (he seriously lights up when she’s around and it’s like nobody else even exists) and now he’s learning that her heart was broken by Bae and he’s helping to rescue their son, but he’s also got the experience of believing the one you once loved to be dead and if he’s honest with himself, would probably jump at the chance to see her again (though he is in the process of moving forward from that by doing the right thing and setting aside his revenge to help Emma get her son back – he’s making signficant progress which gives me hope for him finding love again someday, regardless of who that is with). So he knows what Emma is going through and when Neal is back in the picture he’ll want her to figure out what she wants AND not want to hurt Bae more. (Sadly one of them will have to be hurt, regardless of which one gets what they want and I want their relationship to be repaired as I adored their scenes together).
I don’t buy the argument that he’ll just jump out of the way and start shipping SF though (I’ve seen that along with a “haha CS is dead” thing – so appreciative that this thread has NOT treated me like that even though I disagree! I love rational Oncers who allow different opinions!). He’ll be just as torn as everyone else, but I also can’t picture him just watching the happy family and not being jealous, especially if he & Emma do open up to each other more. *So far* I haven’t seen anyone else on the show that gets his attention the way Emma does and if he ends up with someone else we’ve seen already, at this point in time it would feel like they were a 2nd choice and that’s not fair. So if he does have to go find someone else, I hope it’s a new someone because I don’t buy that he’d go for Regina – they’d be toxic and he has had no regard for her safety whatsoever.
Conversely, we haven’t gotten to see much of Neal & Regina but I’ve felt since Tallahassee that they seem like they would be more kindred spirits and want similar things. I think Regina needs a guy who is fairly new around here as well simply because she’s burned too many bridges with everyone else. Neal reminds me of Daniel and I think Regina needs someone more like Neal than someone like Hook. HQ would just drag each other into a downward spiral and I have hope for both characters to turn their lives around. So either someone new for her too or Neal for her because I just can’t fathom HQ ever being anything but toxic. I want to root for all of them to find happiness and I don’t now, nor ever will ship something just to get rid of someone to pave the way for what I want. I also really really want both guys to find love and they obviously can’t both find Emma so I am thinking ahead and trying to find things that actually make sense but need more interaction first to form any real attachment to any of it.
Neal has shown that he can love Emma but still pay attention to someone else. Neal’s major focus is just like the rest of them: they want a family. I loved loved loved MRJ’s interview not too long ago because while he was open to the possibility that SF do have a chance (and they definitely do) he still left it open saying he didn’t want to paint the writers into a corner and more importantly, that Neal wants family. He just wants to belong somewhere. Which is what everyone else has been searching for. Neal, Regina, Emma, & Hook have all been abandoned and just want family again. It’s what ties them all together, though certain combinations understand each other / are more open to understanding each other more than others and some take longer (ie: Emma & Regina understand wanting family & loving Henry, but they’re not gonna be best friends anytime soon – likewise Hook & Bae have similar backgrounds from way back but have major issues and may not be open to being friends for a time, especially if Neal still holds Hook responsible for Milah & Rumple’s actions).
I really hate Milah – kinda glad I don’t have to root for her with Hook because I hated what she did to Rumple and Bae. All 3 guys deserve happiness but they were all hurt by her and I didn’t see anything all that special about her to warrant that. I don’t blame her for not being happy because clearly the relationship wasn’t “right” but she handled everything very very poorly. I will agree though that I’m not sure how much of what she did in abandoning him is affecting Neal as he does seem more affected by Rumple letting go of him. He blames Hook for tearing apart his family but Rumple let her go (I think all she wanted was someone to fight for her – Hook was obviously willing to do so, even so far as letting Rumple believe she was dead so he’d kill him instead) and Rumple was a coward and couldn’t do it (in her eyes). In reality he shouldn’t have tried to fight Hook, it would have left his son all alone and he would have died which is exactly why he injured himself in the first place! Also we’d have no story – but that being said, I still hate Milah but now that I’m thinking about it, Rumple’s abandonment of Neal did have a far greater afffect than Milah running off with a pirate. However, I believe those issues will come to the surface when Neal sees Hook again, especially if Emma tells him to play nice because even if she’s NOT choosing to be with Hook, she’s still choosing to defend him and let him be a part of her / their lives and that will probably feel like a slap in the face to Neal. It will be compounded by the fact that Emma may still be upset with and not forgive him for various things right away, but is defending a man that he has major issues with. Even as just friends all of that would hurt & cause all kinds of drama. Can’t imagine what he will do if she actually chooses Hook over him.
As much as I want CS, I don’t want Bae to go off the deep end and be hurt yet again – though I don’t think that’s a reason necessarily to root for SF, just so that he won’t be hurt – it certainly wasn’t a reason to root for Rumple/Cora, I think we can all safely agree on that! So glad Belle was there eventually even if it took Rumple ages to find her because his first two “loves” were dreadful. I don’t think Milah went into it intentionally to hurt Rumple and that she did genuinely love Hook (she would have gotten away cleanly if she let Hook die for her and she didn’t). So as much as I hate her, it’s more a personality thing and not what she’s actually done. If Emma does do the same thing and chooses to be with Hook, she won’t be leaving her son behind (nor would he want her to), and she won’t be running away from a marriage as she was never married to and isn’t currently in a relationship with Neal. I can see him comparing her to that should it ever happen though, much like Henry’s first instinct was to say that Emma was just as bad as Regina after 1 lie – yes it was a big lie but it wasn’t trying to kill people and was a jump – just like saying Emma is like Milah would be a jump but has basic similarities if she chooses Hook. No way is she ever leaving Henry though and now we’ve seen that Hook likes children and wants to be a part of a family. (Honestly there was never any doubt in my mind after Tallahassee because of how he spoke of the lost boys but I know for some it took a long time to get to that point and they were pleasantly surprised with how cute the Hook teaching Bae to drive the ship scene was). So hopefully even if he’s just hovering in Emma’s circle we’ll at least get to see him become friends with Henry and I think Henry would like being friends with a pirate.
I honestly expected Bae to have gone from being the sweet little boy to have turned very very dark after what he went through and was pleasantly surprised that the only thing he’s really done is whine about various things over time (I love Henry but now we see where he gets it from). With how Emma spoke about him all of season 1 I really expected him to be a nasty character that had a lot more issues or had done something truly awful with no good reason behind it. I think his main issue, honestly, is that he was stuck as a 14 year old for too long. He acts very childish sometimes but then has moments where he’s awesome too. We saw a start of him fighting for her when he went to confront Rumple at the apartment and that gives me hope. I would hate to see him flip out and spiral and become like Rumple though if he doesn’t get his way and it’s the last straw (poor thing has been through a lot). I think it would make for an interesting story to see him battling with that side of himself and to see just who it is that is able to help him remain the good guy that he is deep down. (His Belle, as it were, to parallel his father but without going quite so far down a rotten path).
On the flip side, so far, Hook is all about Emma. Stupid innuendos aside, the only person he drops his facade for and has real conversations with is her. She’s all he sees in a crowded room and they get one another. Whether she chooses him or not isn’t the issue, I’m merely pointing out that right now, if Hook is interested in anyone, it’s her and I don’t see him that way with anyone else on the show that we’ve seen so far. It’s not impossible and since I love him so much I want him to have an epic romance with whoever. But contrary to some things I’ve seen/read, he really does treat Emma differently. The fact that he wasn’t making innuendos and flirting with everyone in the finale gave me hope that people would finally see that he is real when he’s with Emma. In fact I’d say that Hook is the facade with the innuendos and acting like he doesn’t have a care in the world, but that when he is around Emma he is himself again: he is Killian Jones and his heart is on his sleeve for her, just as he can read her like an open book.
In fact in that diner scene, I think HE had all kinds of emotions going on in his head just like every time that Neal had to make a tough choice. Not only was he battling trying to leave and save his own skin vs help everyone (who have betrayed him time and time again), but he was just learning that the reason Emma betrayed him on the beanstalk was because she was hurt and the person she was hurt by was Bae. On top of all of that, he’s also got his past with Bae and finding out that he’s dead. Not to mention he probably did feel a little guilty for being so drawn to Emma knowing that Bae already holds him responsible for his family being broken up. EVERY character on this show is shades of grey and has a LOT of issues. They all have a million things running through their head at any given time and react to each situation differently than everyone else does. ALL of these things were weighing on his mind and he looked like he’d been punched in the gut when Emma said that and left.
Also, he had already handed over the empty pouch and was just left to just stare into space after she walked out. She wouldn’t tell anybody details about who Henry’s dad was and never made any effort to let anybody in but he asked and she answered without hesitating when it’s technically none of his business. She never had to tell him why she was so bent on taking the hard road when she was on his side right before Snow started saying they should. He recognized there was more to it, just like she recognized that his tattoo meant something (and his entire demeanor changed when that happened too). If anybody else, especially anyone who had previously betrayed them had handed that pouch over, Emma would have checked it to be sure. When it’s something THAT important, she would have checked but she TRUSTED him. She was gutted when she opened it and it was empty. She questioned it when he came back and his explanation was directed at her. As I said previously the bean is their symbol (whether it’s friendship or more) and he handed that back to her. She didn’t have to hand it to him to throw into the water. She could have thought “Neverland” to herself and tossed it. She showed him she was trusting him with the most important thing in her life, just as he was trusting her by handing it back to begin with. Love it or hate it they do have something and it clearly affects her / gets to her just as much as her jealousy was coming out with the Neal/Tamara situation. They made a point of showing us her face when Hook came back. He’s given her hope and that’s something she hasn’t had a lot of in a long time.
Again, not arguing CS as a couple because they aren’t “legitimate” yet, just in relation to the idea of them being friends and the many many issues this triangle as a whole faces because of the different combinations of relationships and their histories, be it friendly or romantic. I completely agree with what AngieBelle said here:
I think what it comes down to is that every single character on this show is flawed. Everyone has made poor choices at one time or another. They are human! (Or at least human for storybook characters- ha ha.) Every relationship on the show has faced problems, and every established relationship is valid.
Not saying I think that Neal would get over it better if forced to be just friends with Emma, I’m just saying that from what we’ve seen, he’s proven it can work and they can be civil and get along for Henry’s sake, regardless of one of them being with someone else. I’m not sure where Hook would fit in because you don’t just wake up and stop being attracted to someone you have a deep connection with (another reason that if SF happens, Emma will have to deal with her connection to Hook because Neal won’t like it but I don’t see her backing down on it, even if it’s as just friends).
I’m definitely expecting a confrontation between Neal & Hook regardless, and I hope it doesn’t start out as a “you destroyed my family once I won’t let you take Emma” kind of thing because in this case Neal is in the wrong. Tamara tried to kill everyone and took Henry and Hook is doing everything he can, including getting along with his worst enemy, to save him. Emma has every right to defend that and I fully expect her to. Perhaps it will end up a good starting point for the CaptainFire bromance to rekindle. I loved the scenes of Hook with young Bae and I want them to get along I really do – I just hope that doesn’t only hinge on Hook letting Neal have Emma. I would hate to see that as one of the things I love about Hook IS his quote of “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” and that would greatly undermine that for me, especially if there’s a lot of build up for him obviously caring for Emma.
I know some of it is subjective and not as obvious to people yet, especially if they believe in SF 100% (and I get it, I do), but CS people have just as much reason to believe that he IS different with Emma. I don’t buy that he only came back because of Bae because yes, he looked at the markings on the helm but he was also turning the bean over and over in his hand. Now – to some it’s just a bean and he’s just debating what to do with it. I get that argument.
However, the bean has always been the symbol of the CS relationship (whatever it is, romantic, friendship, literally whatever, that has been their symbol). He told her the one that was dried up reminded him of her because it was once full of hope and is now all shriveled and he was done with her (he was hurt, forced to work with Cora again, and Emma had betrayed him – he was lying in that moment just as much as anytime Emma pretended to be over Neal). What did he do with that shriveled up bean? He brought it back to life and used it to get to SB.
Now he’s been offered a chance by Emma to be a part of something. He listened intently to what she said, he asked her why she was really doing stuff. That was all in his head as he was contemplating everything. He once made an offer similar to that one when he offered Bae a chance to be family. He knows what it’s like to have that offer turned down and how sincere it was. He & Emma understand each other and he reads her like an open book (and has from day 1). It was BOTH Emma & Bae that he came back for (and Colin said as much on twitter as well).
It was the combination of the bean AND the scratch marks that made him turn around. He didn’t say like Rumple did that he was going after Henry to honor Bae. He just turned around. When he showed up Emma said she thought he didn’t care about anybody but himself and he, looking ONLY at her and handing HER the bean said “Maybe I just needed reminding I could” – it was the combination of Emma & Bae, not just for Bae. He could honor him sure but Bae is dead – Hook gets very little from turning around to help a bunch of people that hate him to make a dead guy happy. EMMA is the one who has reached an arm out to him and offered him a chance to be a part of something.
For every list of reasons (actual rational reasons) I see for one pairing and start buying into it, I see a list equally as compelling for the other. It will be one heck of a triangle BECAUSE there are so many variables. I completely understand why people on both sides see what they see and think what they think and the more I look at it, the more I’m convinced that we all have good reason to hope and it’s infuriating because it means that somebody will get massively hurt by it. This triangle is not cut & dried, and it won’t be easy for anyone. They’ve set up so much for CS that it would be painful to see SF happen and Hook get hurt and have it all be for nothing, but at the same time SF have been through so much and I don’t want to see Bae get hurt again either. It’s just that good.
As for the Tamara situation, I do agree that Neal was more hurt by the fact that it was all a lie rather than being so in love with her that it hurt him. It’s a situation where once again, he tried to be a part of something and it backfired on him. Does it take a weight off his shoulders for wanting to be with Emma? Absolutely. I just felt like he was still hurt by the situation as a whole that Emma was around to see that. It’s one thing to hear about it afterwards and it’s hard enough then because you don’t want to picture him with someone else or being hurt by it (in any way) and the coming back, but to see it play out changes the dynamics of it.
On one hand I think she’ll let it go because she always believed in them and was proven right because he finally admitted it. On the other hand she’s watched him interact with this woman that she never trusted (and not only because she was jealous) and she’s seen him essentially throw fits defending how much he needed Tamara. So it’s not necessarily going to be the fact that he moved on with someone else but still had feelings for Emma and it will be easily swept aside because she wants to believe it, but more that she will be battling with herself because of what she has seen and heard too. She did call him out on not believing in her lying ability and now I think her instincts are in check because she has confirmation that they were right (and they usually are). It’ll just *hurt* her more because he chose not to believe in her as much overall, and on top of that she was forced to watch as he brought Tamara to SB, and to watch as he defended her time and time again, and to watch him be broken up with and told it was all a lie and be hurt by that (even if it is just the situation).
I do completely agree that Tamara is crafty and knew what she needed to do and was playing him the whole time and did a darn good job of it. No question in my mind about that. He was easily played BECAUSE he was vulnerable. Emma may get that part of it. Doesn’t change the fact that she had to watch it play out from the moment Tamara came to SB. She freaked out that he was bringing her there (partly because she was jealous and hurt but partly to protect SB from outsiders) and he had a FIT because he said he needed her. That’s not something Emma can just forget. He wasn’t worried about protecting the town, he was focused on bonding with Henry and wanted to stay for his son (admirable) and that would have been a great time to end things with Tamara because he just found out about his son and wasn’t committed to staying in NY etc etc, but he chose to bring her to him and TOLD EMMA that he needed her here. He knew that that would mean having a relationship with Tamara IN FRONT OF EMMA and he chose that. Against his deepest wishes sure, but he still chose it and she had to watch their relationship unfold, all the while being untrusted.
Emma does have a lot of perspective on stuff so once she calms down & has time to actually react to anything emotional (and isn’t off on a mission somewhere) I fully expect her to come to terms with what Neal has done, just like she did with Snowing. There are still massive wounds there, but as I mentioned above, she & Neal have been able to get along civilly for Henry’s sake and I expect that to continue regardless. She may very well be able to forgive Neal because she has similar life experiences. Whether that means she’s willing to ignore all of that or doesn’t let herself fall for anyone else remains to be seen. She forgave Snowing but they’re her parents and while it hurt, she’s still managed to have a good relationship with them. Likewise Henry forgave her (again, likely because they were both abandoned & wanted their parents in their lives so badly and were able to get past these issues because of it). Emma has spent a good portion of her life hurt by Neal though and I’m not willing to say anything 100% as to whether forgiving = starting over in a romantic way. It might, it might not.
Emma’s story is definitely in the middle and I agree, you can’t stop the story there and assume we’ll know how it ends. That’s why as much as triangles have been annoying, especially on this show, they’ve also been rather predictable so far because we had seen TLK work so we knew which couples had to end up together and who would get left behind. Emma’s story is very much still in the middle and we haven’t seen any proof yet.
Neither has been under a sleeping curse, we don’t know if Henry is the product of TL because we don’t know why specifically he was the kid in the drawing or what his connection to PP is, we haven’t seen somebody try to take his heart (and I would really rather they didn’t, poor kid has been through enough) etc. We just don’t yet know FOR CERTAIN one way or the other.
Somebody pointed out yesterday that Charming always just “knows” that Snow is alright. He never doubts for a second and repeatedly said that Snow was alive because he could feel it. He’d know. We haven’t seen that from Emma yet. She seems to really truly think Neal is dead. That could be her rationalizing his wounds and just assuming and giving up hope, but we saw from Charming when he should have been very very worried, that he just knew without a doubt because he could “feel it” and haven’t had anything of the sort from Emma yet. Her view on stuff is skewed by her real world experiences vs living in FTL and I freely admit that, I’m just saying we haven’t *definitively* seen anything to suggest that they officially are TL but rather that they still have feelings for each other as they never had a chance to get closure before and the circumstances leading to them being apart had nothing to do with how they felt.
I’m cautiously optimistic about any pairing for Emma simply because we don’t know yet for sure. I think I quoted Kitsis earlier but in case I didn’t (because goodness only knows at this point):
“In all life, there are the people that are right for you and there are the people that are wrong for you, and then there are the people that you just choose. Emma is going to face all those things. We’ll see what happens.”
Regardless of what we think Emma may or may not do, it is ultimately up to her. She may forgive the things we want her to forgive and still choose differently. Likewise some feel like she should move on because she’s not the same person and has an awesome thing going with Hook that can keep building and she could still choose to say “you know what, I know Neal’s hurt me but I choose him” so we just don’t know. I think that every character on the show can pick who they want for her (and some have) and argue it til they’re blue in the face but it will ultimately not be about what anybody says or thinks but what she wants to do which is just as it should be. Her life has been manipulated and controlled enough and sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants, without rhyme or reason.
I’m on board with saying she’s gotten *some* closure on sections of her past with Neal but still cares about him and a part of her always will regardless because he was her first love and Henry’s father. I’m just not completely comfortable calling endgame this early. I see both sides and yes it would be an epic story to have them overcome all of these obstacles like every other couple has. I just see the same potential in CS.
I *think* I’ve addressed all the comments I wanted to and hopefully in a way that everyone understands where I’m coming from. I’ve loved getting more insight from all of you & understand completely that there are a LOT of emotions and thoughts behind everything everyone does. I’ve mostly looked at it from Emma’s perspective recently & I think that’s where a lot of my anger with him comes from but I freely admit that for her (and me) that that may subside with time and more info – just as I hope people start seeing more in Hook given the same. Some of us have believed in one side or the other since Tallahassee with the other side seeing absolutely nothing so it’s refreshing to see rational people who are willing to look so deeply at everything. It’s always nice to have a (friendly) reminder that there are good & compelling stories on both sides and that it will ultimately be up to Emma to decide what she wants.
I hope I go back to being torn just as much as I think Emma will be watching it all again if it ever hits Netflix (hiatus is bad enough, hurry up!). I certainly don’t see this triangle as cut & dried as some (and believe me I wish I did – being a Oncer who isn’t attacked would be far more fun / less stressful! Though being 100% anything would be heartbreaking too if it doesn’t work so I’ll happily settle for middle-ground with an edge to one side for now). As AngieBelle said, all of these characters that we love are flawed and have a lot to get past.
Can’t wait to see how it all unfolds and at least we can all agree that we want Emma to be happy, no matter what she chooses. I really hope that they can all get along in the end as I really love the relationship/friendship possibilities in this triangle specifically and it should have a lot of good drama and hopefully an epic love story thrown in the mix (I really can’t see her choosing someone who isn’t one of the two).
Post-Forum-Breakdown: At this point I’m pretty much fried. I hope that I haven’t upset anyone and I genuinely am open to it if done right and I think it’s just too early to call. Ship and let ship. Thanks everyone for your kindness & patience (some of you have WAY more than I do!) and reading all of these ridiculously long posts! I know this thread started out in a very different place & sorry for derailing it so much!! I completely believe that SF is a legit relationship that has been shown on the show and certainly am not arguing that. There are so many “couples” but not many “supercouples” in OUAT and I think this list certainly shows the best of the best from what we’ve seen and I think that was essentially the initial intention. I’m just a very cautious person and afraid to buy into anything officially *just yet.*
If it does happen I applaud everyone who was on board and saw it from the beginning and got to enjoy it the whole way (and didn’t have to put up with half the stuff I have!). I hate seeing people take pleasure at other fans’ heartache so the fact that we can agree to disagree and have civil discussions makes me very very happy indeed, even if I end up being the one hurt (or my magical mice keel over from trying to write entirely too much and probably going around in circles).
Can’t wait til we get actual stuff to work with and can put some of these past issues with any and all characters to rest. If they weren’t capable of forgiving anything ever, we wouldn’t have any love stories on the show so there is always a possibility and (almost) nothing has been ruled out for anybody (/most) yet. 🙂
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
At this very moment I don’t see how either guy could easily be just friends with Emma to be honest. Neal made a go of it when he was with Tamara for Henry’s sake (and they got along great which gives me hope they can have a relationship of *any* kind down the line because HENRY was their focus) but the feelings were obviously still there (though the fact that they were still there and they were able to get past it enough for Henry is encouraging should he end up on the outside – though I do hope if he does he finds love as well and I think whoever is left will and they will be better suited for that person. As I said earlier, sure Rumple & Milah breaking had a massive affect on things, but they were not suited for each other at all. Rumple found his true love in Belle so I have hope for whoever gets left behind.)
On the flip side Hook & Emma have this connection and when she’s in a room she is literally all he looks at. If you go back and watch the finale he barely talks to anyone else and is constantly drawn to her. When he came back, he offered HER everything and then dealt with everyone. When a group saw the ship coming back, they focused on HER reaction.
Whether they can be friends down the line I just don’t know. I’m sure he’ll be just as confused as anyone when Neal returns even though he’s been drawn to Emma from the start (he seriously lights up when she’s around and it’s like nobody else even exists)
Here’s where personal interpretation comes into it, because IMO, I don’t see Hook’s attraction to her being romantic as of yet. I do think, “She could get it,” has crossed his mind, in fact, it’s probably the first thing about her that crossed his mind, because she’s hot and feisty and that’s how he likes his women. 😉 I do think that he feels a sense of kinship with her, because the more he’s learned about her, the more he’s realised they have similarities and she’s someone he can relate to, (a rare thing for him). But I don’t personally see him having seriously considered, “I’m falling in love with this woman,” (as of yet). Obviously others interpret it differently, and that’s fine, this is just my personal perspective.
If she’s the one he primarily looks at and speaks to, IMO that’s down to the fact that she’s the only one who is remotely interested in talking to or listening to him, so naturally, she’s the one he has to address if he wants to be heard at all by the group as a whole. If they see Emma actually relating to him and considering his words, well they might not trust him, but they do trust Emma, so at least he gets to be heard through her.
Where Nealfire is concerned though, those romantic notions unquestionably exist. Even if you don’t see it in present day, there’s no denying that SF have been in that deeply romantic place in the past. So if we’re talking about either of the guys finding it easy to be just friends with Emma, IMO Hook is totally capable of that at this point in time, but Nealfire, not so much.
Conversely, we haven’t gotten to see much of Neal & Regina but I’ve felt since Tallahassee that they seem like they would be more kindred spirits and want similar things.
I can sort of see where some of the arguments for FireQueen come from, but at the end of the day, I feel so much sympathy and empathy for Nealfire, and I’ve so very rarely felt those things for Regina, that basically, I think he could do better than her. I do hope Regina continues to grow though, and eventually become someone I can genuinely like.
Neal has shown that he can love Emma but still pay attention to someone else.
Pay attention to someone else, yes. Be completely, unquestionably committed to that someone else? I’d say no.
However, I believe those issues will come to the surface when Neal sees Hook again, especially if Emma tells him to play nice because even if she’s NOT choosing to be with Hook, she’s still choosing to defend him and let him be a part of her / their lives and that will probably feel like a slap in the face to Neal. It will be compounded by the fact that Emma may still be upset with and not forgive him for various things right away, but is defending a man that he has major issues with. Even as just friends all of that would hurt & cause all kinds of drama.
All of this is why I think there’s already enough stuff to make a deeply emotional and compelling storyline without them having to go the full blown love triangle by having an actual, committed romance between CS. It’s still essentially a triangle if all three of them are involved in trying to sort out this highly complicated emotional situation of SF romance trying to coexist with CS friendship, which will force CF to sort out their issues.
No way is she ever leaving Henry though and now we’ve seen that Hook likes children and wants to be a part of a family. (Honestly there was never any doubt in my mind after Tallahassee because of how he spoke of the lost boys but I know for some it took a long time to get to that point and they were pleasantly surprised with how cute the Hook teaching Bae to drive the ship scene was). So hopefully even if he’s just hovering in Emma’s circle we’ll at least get to see him become friends with Henry and I think Henry would like being friends with a pirate.
On the surface of it, yes, I’d expect any boy Henry’s age to think it’s super cool to be friends with a pirate. However, we’ve already seen that Henry’s greatest wish is for his parents to be back together, so if Hook is standing in the way of that, I don’t see Henry wanting to be friends with him.
I’m not saying that that is automatically the deciding factor in who ends up with who, because as I’ve previously stated, SF shouldn’t just be together for Henry’s sake, I’m just saying that Hook hovering around could be perceived by Henry as a threat to his happy ending. I would absolutely expect Hook to want to have some positive emotional connection to Henry though, because that kid is Bae’s blood, and Milah’s blood.
On the flip side, so far, Hook is all about Emma. Stupid innuendos aside,
Hey now, don’t be belittling Hook innuendos. Maybe it’s just because I’d quite like to be on the receiving end, but I’ve got nothing against some Hook innuendos. 😉 (I know many people think it’s gross, but I say bring it.)
the only person he drops his facade for and has real conversations with is her. She’s all he sees in a crowded room and they get one another. Whether she chooses him or not isn’t the issue, I’m merely pointing out that right now, if Hook is interested in anyone, it’s her and I don’t see him that way with anyone else on the show that we’ve seen so far. It’s not impossible and since I love him so much I want him to have an epic romance with whoever. But contrary to some things I’ve seen/read, he really does treat Emma differently.
Yes, he does, because she’s the only one who has been in the position to give him a chance. Everyone else has used him to their own advantage, and he’s done the same to everyone in return, so that’s all well and good, you reap what you sow. Emma’s the only person he’s had the chance to get beyond that with. It hasn’t all been smooth sailing and complete honesty between them, but unlike with the rest, he has had the opportunity to actually relate to her on a personal level. Some read “romance” into that, others don’t.
Also, he had already handed over the empty pouch and was just left to just stare into space after she walked out. She wouldn’t tell anybody details about who Henry’s dad was and never made any effort to let anybody in but he asked and she answered without hesitating when it’s technically none of his business.
To be fair though, by that point, the secret about the identity of Henry’s father wasn’t a secret any more, the whole freaking town knew, so revealing that info to Hook in particular wasn’t that big of a deal for her to do IMO.
If anybody else, especially anyone who had previously betrayed them had handed that pouch over, Emma would have checked it to be sure. When it’s something THAT important, she would have checked but she TRUSTED him. She was gutted when she opened it and it was empty.
People being slapped in the face seems to be a recurring theme, no matter the ship.
She questioned it when he came back and his explanation was directed at her. As I said previously the bean is their symbol (whether it’s friendship or more) and he handed that back to her. She didn’t have to hand it to him to throw into the water. She could have thought “Neverland” to herself and tossed it. She showed him she was trusting him with the most important thing in her life, just as he was trusting her by handing it back to begin with.
I can see how CS shippers would have read more into that action, so can’t say that interpretation is invalid. From my perspective, Emma doesn’t know how to use a bean, and as far as she knows, Hook is the only one out of all of them who has ever been to NL before, and the vessel they’re on belongs to him, so it just made sense that he was the one who tossed the bean.
Love it or hate it they do have something and it clearly affects her / gets to her just as much as her jealousy was coming out with the Neal/Tamara situation. They made a point of showing us her face when Hook came back. He’s given her hope and that’s something she hasn’t had a lot of in a long time.
Agreed, without him having come back with his boat and the bean, they’d have no hope of immediately following Henry, and that is undoubtedly something the Emma will be grateful to Hook for.
I’m definitely expecting a confrontation between Neal & Hook regardless, and I hope it doesn’t start out as a “you destroyed my family once I won’t let you take Emma” kind of thing because in this case Neal is in the wrong. Tamara tried to kill everyone and took Henry and Hook is doing everything he can, including getting along with his worst enemy, to save him. Emma has every right to defend that and I fully expect her to. Perhaps it will end up a good starting point for the CaptainFire bromance to rekindle.
I think it would be an entirely believable initial reaction to the situation. That’s not to say that he wouldn’t move past it, but put yourself in Nealfire’s shoes. You declare your love for Emma, then fall down a portal, seriously injured and verging on death…you manage to survive your injuries, but you’re in a world there’s no easy way out of…so you search and struggle and pray for a way to get out, to get back to Emma, the woman you love, and who had confessed she shares that love the last time you saw her…and against all odds, you do make it out, you do manage to get back to where she is…and she’s falling for the same guy who took your mother away from you. Kick in the guts much?! I wouldn’t blame Nealfire in the slightest if his initial reaction is to punch Hook square in the face.
I loved the scenes of Hook with young Bae and I want them to get along I really do – I just hope that doesn’t only hinge on Hook letting Neal have Emma. I would hate to see that as one of the things I love about Hook IS his quote of “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” and that would greatly undermine that for me, especially if there’s a lot of build up for him obviously caring for Emma.
I posted about that quote in the SF thread recently. I can totally see why CS shippers would consider it hypocritical if he just gave up on Emma if she’s what he wants. My point though was basically, what does Hook want most of all now? Back in the day when he said it, that scene related specifically to a woman that both he and Rumple wanted. The finale shows him dedicating himself to a new goal, to not be as selfish as he has been in the past. And what is he using as prime motivation for that?
Hook: It’s not too late to start over. I can change Bae…for you.
Bae: You say that, but I know you’ll never change. Because all you care about, is yourself.*Cue me wanting to dive into the screen and give Hook a hug, because his expression is, just, URGH, his heart just totally broke.*
That flashback is immediately after we see Hook sailing away from SB, and immediately after that flashback we go back to the boat in present day, and Hook changing his mind, deciding to not be selfish this time. So, this is his new goal, this is his new “fight”, to prove Bae’s statement wrong, to prove to himself and everyone else that he can be unselfish.So if he’s presented with the situation where he’s been attracted to Emma, and that’s crushing Nealfire, I’d like to see Hook at least consider what exactly it is he feels for her. Now, if he concludes that he does genuinely, with all his heart, truly want to be in a relationship with Emma, then yes, I’d expect him to “fight” for her. But if he’s unsure as to his commitment being 100%, the right thing for him to do would be to step aside to at least let SF work their stuff out. Actually, even if he does want a relationship with Emma, he’d hopefully realise that SF have oodles of stuff to sort out before she can properly commit to anyone, so he needs to give her time and space no matter what he may personally desire right now.
“A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets.” So if he chooses to take the easy option and not fight against his ingrained selfishness, he gets a girlfriend with unresolved baggage with her ex who can’t truly commit to him.
His taking the time to consider these things is his new “fight” to be a better man, which is his new #1 goal in life. So I wouldn’t find him hypocritical at all if he stepped back from Emma. If anything, I guess I’d consider him hypocritical if he doesn’t step back from Emma.
However, the bean has always been the symbol of the CS relationship (whatever it is, romantic, friendship, literally whatever, that has been their symbol). He told her the one that was dried up reminded him of her because it was once full of hope and is now all shriveled and he was done with her (he was hurt, forced to work with Cora again, and Emma had betrayed him – he was lying in that moment just as much as anytime Emma pretended to be over Neal). What did he do with that shriveled up bean? He brought it back to life and used it to get to SB.
I confess to never having looked at the bean as symbolic in that way, but can see how that interpretation of it makes sense.
It was the combination of the bean AND the scratch marks that made him turn around. He didn’t say like Rumple did that he was going after Henry to honor Bae. He just turned around. When he showed up Emma said she thought he didn’t care about anybody but himself and he, looking ONLY at her and handing HER the bean said “Maybe I just needed reminding I could” – it was the combination of Emma & Bae, not just for Bae. He could honor him sure but Bae is dead – Hook gets very little from turning around to help a bunch of people that hate him to make a dead guy happy. EMMA is the one who has reached an arm out to him and offered him a chance to be a part of something.
Hook would get plenty out of doing it to honour deadBae if in the end it served to make him a better person. I do agree that Emma’s words are what got the cogs turning in his head, but still believe that he turned the boat around primarily to prove himself to Bae, and to himself.
For every list of reasons (actual rational reasons) I see for one pairing and start buying into it, I see a list equally as compelling for the other. It will be one heck of a triangle BECAUSE there are so many variables. I completely understand why people on both sides see what they see and think what they think and the more I look at it, the more I’m convinced that we all have good reason to hope and it’s infuriating because it means that somebody will get massively hurt by it.
Which is why I like my scenario where at the end of the day, they’re all mature enough about it to end up friends, because I love them all individually and don’t want any of them being hurt, (also, I crackship Hookriel so wouldn’t mind him being made available ;)). It can be infuriating I suppose, but it’s also a sign of good writing that they’ve been able to set both options up the way they have. Keeps things interesting. Keeps the audience guessing about how the love story will end. There aren’t many characters they have the opportunity to do that with.
I do completely agree that Tamara is crafty and knew what she needed to do and was playing him the whole time and did a darn good job of it. No question in my mind about that. He was easily played BECAUSE he was vulnerable. Emma may get that part of it. Doesn’t change the fact that she had to watch it play out from the moment Tamara came to SB. She freaked out that he was bringing her there (partly because she was jealous and hurt but partly to protect SB from outsiders) and he had a FIT because he said he needed her. That’s not something Emma can just forget. He wasn’t worried about protecting the town, he was focused on bonding with Henry and wanted to stay for his son (admirable) and that would have been a great time to end things with Tamara because he just found out about his son and wasn’t committed to staying in NY etc etc, but he chose to bring her to him and TOLD EMMA that he needed her here. He knew that that would mean having a relationship with Tamara IN FRONT OF EMMA and he chose that. Against his deepest wishes sure, but he still chose it and she had to watch their relationship unfold, all the while being untrusted.
If he thought Emma was over him, because she hadn’t come to find him right after the curse broke, and then her constant insistence that she no longer loved him and she didn’t care that he had a fiancee…why would he feel like he couldn’t invite Tamara to town and have Emma be fine with seeing them together?
Moments after they met again for the first time in a decade, she was saying things like she only kept the swan keyring to remind her to never trust again, and no good came from their having been together. Even if he didn’t entirely believe her, her words are all he could react to, (if he so much as looked like he maybe didn’t believe her, she’d just insist on it even more emphatically).
Finding out he has a son, and having to deal with his father again, it was a time of great emotional upheaval for him, and he needed someone to bring some emotional stability for him in the midst of that madness. Emma insisted that she had no interest in being there to support him emotionally. So yes, he needed his fiancee Tamara there instead. And if it hurt Emma to see them together, well, that was her own fault, because she’s the one who kept saying she was fine with him having moved on, and in doing so, she created the environment where he felt justified in inviting Tamara to town. So really, she’s in no position to hold it against him.
Emma has spent a good portion of her life hurt by Neal though and I’m not willing to say anything 100% as to whether forgiving = starting over in a romantic way. It might, it might not.
Emma also has her son because of him. She has her family because of him. And the hurt he caused her forced her to become her independent, headstrong self with ballz of steel, which has served her well, especially in the last year or so.
Somebody pointed out yesterday that Charming always just “knows” that Snow is alright. He never doubts for a second and repeatedly said that Snow was alive because he could feel it. He’d know. We haven’t seen that from Emma yet.
Rumple believed and accepted that Belle was dead, but that doesn’t negate the fact that they undoubtedly have TL. So “not being able to sense the other is alive” isn’t really a contributing factor to proving or debunking TL.
Ship and let ship. Thanks everyone for your kindness & patience (some of you have WAY more than I do!) and reading all of these ridiculously long posts! I know this thread started out in a very different place & sorry for derailing it so much!!
It’s been a worthwhile derailing. 🙂 I do lurk in the CS thread, and obviously don’t agree completely with everything in there, and sometimes have the urge to reply to something, but it’s really not the place for it, because the CS thread is for posting all about pro-CS stuff. I’ve seen posts from yourself in particular saying how you don’t really see that they’ve established a strong basis for SF in present day/future. So even if the long posts have each taken me several hours to read/reply to each time, I figured it was worthwhile putting this side of the argument out there, given that it’s not a thread specific to one ship, and the discussion has been thoughtful and civil on both sides. 🙂
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