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@MysteryKat25 wrote:
At this very moment I don’t see how either guy could easily be just friends with Emma to be honest. Neal made a go of it when he was with Tamara for Henry’s sake (and they got along great which gives me hope they can have a relationship of *any* kind down the line because HENRY was their focus) but the feelings were obviously still there (though the fact that they were still there and they were able to get past it enough for Henry is encouraging should he end up on the outside – though I do hope if he does he finds love as well and I think whoever is left will and they will be better suited for that person. As I said earlier, sure Rumple & Milah breaking had a massive affect on things, but they were not suited for each other at all. Rumple found his true love in Belle so I have hope for whoever gets left behind.)
On the flip side Hook & Emma have this connection and when she’s in a room she is literally all he looks at. If you go back and watch the finale he barely talks to anyone else and is constantly drawn to her. When he came back, he offered HER everything and then dealt with everyone. When a group saw the ship coming back, they focused on HER reaction.
Whether they can be friends down the line I just don’t know. I’m sure he’ll be just as confused as anyone when Neal returns even though he’s been drawn to Emma from the start (he seriously lights up when she’s around and it’s like nobody else even exists) and now he’s learning that her heart was broken by Bae and he’s helping to rescue their son, but he’s also got the experience of believing the one you once loved to be dead and if he’s honest with himself, would probably jump at the chance to see her again (though he is in the process of moving forward from that by doing the right thing and setting aside his revenge to help Emma get her son back – he’s making signficant progress which gives me hope for him finding love again someday, regardless of who that is with). So he knows what Emma is going through and when Neal is back in the picture he’ll want her to figure out what she wants AND not want to hurt Bae more. (Sadly one of them will have to be hurt, regardless of which one gets what they want and I want their relationship to be repaired as I adored their scenes together).
It took me forever to get through these posts, and mostly I’m letting KFC and Phee do the SF response because I agree with everything they say but I’d like to respond to this part.
I have to agree with what Phee said. There is no denying that Hook has a connection to Emma, they are very much kindred spirits but as of right now I don’t think Hook has any romantic interests in Emma. He is only just now, as of The Evil Queen, beginning to realize that his quest for revenge and his Milah holdup are preventing him from having a life and being liked, let alone loved. He recognizes that Emma and he are similar but, from my own personal POV, it’s not romance. It’s like finding that one person in the room who you can be friends with because you have a lot in common. I personally do not see Hook lighting up every time he is around Emma; I think he is drawn to her because they do have a lot in common but also from a practical standpoint: she is only person he can talk to without getting hit. Who else is he going to interact with? He and Regina, again in my view, a much more serious connection with each other in the mines while discussing their respective “evil” selves. In that scene he was the same kind, contemplative man he is when he’s around Emma, because like Emma, he and Regina understand each other. I’m also not trying to say that Hook and Emma couldn’t be romantic. There is chemistry between them and I think he genuinely likes her, just not in a romantic sense. Not yet, at least.
Kat you make note that in the diner scene and then later at the docks, Hook is only interacting with Emma, only talking to her, only looking at her and I agree with that. But I also think it’s worth noting that he doesn’t really know anyone else at that point. Him talking to Snow and Charming about turning and running doesn’t make any sense because Snow and Charming would never turn and run like he and Emma have been wont to do. It also has to be Emma because she is going to be the one to tell him about Baelfire which is Hook’s entire impetus for turning the ship around. At the docks it’s the same thing, Emma and Hook have both made the decision to stay with the other of FTL, but in my personal viewing, it has nothing to do with each other but rather with Nealfire and Henry. Both are staying because they owe it to their respective sons.EDIT (based on something I just read)
It was suggested that Hook came back for both Bae and Emma, the bean in the finale symbolizing Emma. It’s an interesting interpretation and I can understand how someone might come to that conclusion; their first real interaction together was going in search of the bean. But might I offer a different one? The bean in this case is a symbol of freedom. With the bean, Hook could go wherever he will, free to sail off back to NL and live out his life as a pirate. Like Emma, Hook is great at running. He is a pirate, it’s in his nature. He could use the bean to revert back to his old ways, but we have to keep in mind that this episode is post-The Evil Queen where Hook has a bit of an epiphany: maybe he doesn’t want to do this anymore. So the bean is a symbol for freedom and his old life but it’s also a symbol of another choice, being tied to people. He knows that if he turns around and goes back to SB, he is forever tied to the CharmingStiltskins and Regina. By aligning himself with them he is forsaking his old life and moving on to the next phase. That phase could very well include Emma, I’m not trying to say it’s not. But like I said above, I don’t think that *right now* his mind is on Emma in a romantic sense. He first has to take the step of being connected to people in a long term sense; he had an alliance with Cora but he was almost glad to be rid of her when they arrived in SB. She was a means to an end, nothing more. I doubt Hook has had any sort of real honest to God connection with people since Milah and Bae left.
Just some more food for thought. And I have to second Kat that I’m glad we’re all having this conversation without it turning into a screaming match. I’ve tried to follow SF/CS debates before in other places and they always fall apart and turn into: “I hope Neal is dead!” “Hook’s a bad person!” “GRR HISS SPIT!”[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"So um, good to know in case this carries over to the new forums: there is a character limit! Which…I have apparently reached (AHH!) If anybody is wondering what the current character limit is, try 60k which is roughly 19 pages (and that is CHARACTER and not WORD limit, just to clarify). *shakes head* Hopefully I can put just as much behind my July CampNaNoWriMo project as I do in one day in these forums cause I am far more prolific when I don’t need to be so! Editing this down a bit & breaking it into 2 parts.
PART 1:
Again thanks for all the responses and the civilness of this thread! I’ll echo RG here when I say that I’ve tried many times other places and it’s just hitting your head against a brick wall. Also seriously, I appreciate taking the time to read everything but please don’t feel the need to comment on every little thing. I know I ramble on a lot (it’s a writer thing, sorry!) but I appreciate that people have actually taken time to read what I said. I won’t take offense, promise! These posts can get crazy long & out of control and I know some stuff is probably rehashing the same old thing after awhile as we don’t have anything new to go on yet.
I realize that people don’t read as much into certain things while others base everything on it and that’s fine. We all see things differentlt and we’ll have to wait and see how things play out in the end. To most things there are two ways to look at it and I know for many who love either side of the triangle, they just don’t see ANY buildup for the other.
Thanks for at least acknowleding it as one interpretation of events. As we’ve seen throughout this thread there are many ways to look at things and some put more stock in things than others, but with Hook & Emma they *keep going back* to the bean and their hands and trust. These are their common themes so when some see that again and again, we do think it means something. (I can also see how people never made the connection or felt like the bean didn’t mean anything. I just know in CS circles, we see that they keep going back to things like that).
He made a point of telling her (and himself) that he was done with her when the bean was shriveled up and useless, but that didn’t last long. Hook is a man who holds a grudge and other than that one time with the shriveled bean in front of Cora – (self preservation mode on multiple levels). His “I’m done with you” is about as convincing as any of Emma’s saying she was completely over Neal.
Hook is impressed with her and doesn’t hold a grudge with her. If anybody else had betrayed him like that, he certainly wouldn’t try to flirt with them after, or turn around because something they said struck a cord with him. He’d be long gone and rightfully so since everyone in town has betrayed him that he’s given the opportunity to do so. He keeps up the Hook facade most of the time but Emma is the only one who gets to see the real him (yes this may because she’s also the only one to try, but she’s betrayed him and he keeps letting her in when we know he can hold a grudge easily). I’m sorry more people don’t see how genuine he is with her but there is a difference that some of see – it’s rare to see him smile for instance, and Emma impresses him and in Tallahassee, when they were working as a team, he literally lit up and was happy, however briefly. Whether that means they’ll be friends or romantic, he is far more open with her and he smiles a lot more – genuine smiles, not innuendo-driven cocky pirateness. That’s one of the things that is so beloved about Tallahassee for CS fans is that he genuinely seems to enjoy her company and is impressed with her (and not afraid to tell her so). He also lets her in – they are open books to one another, and she is the only person in town he cares about on any level at this point.
I agree that Hook doesn’t really know anybody else but I still think he made a point of talking directly to Emma when he said he needed reminding he could care about someone other than himself. It was her offer that reminded him of the one he once made to Bae and I truly believe that it was a combination of the two that brought him back. He may have come back for Bae and he may have come back for Emma, I completely understand why the latter is remotely in question since even after the finale some refuse to see *any* good in Hook and/or potential in a CS setup, but the way they showed all of that made it seem to some of us like it had more significance and it was at least partially Emma that brought him back (whether romantic or not.)
He knows what it’s like o be in her shoes in this instance and how badly he wanted Bae to accept his offer and Bae’s refusal was his last straw. This is a real chance for him and he believed that Emma meant it. Her words echoed his own from long ago and brought those feelings back to the surface. Again just my interpretation putting myself in Hook’s shoes for a minute.
He’s been out for himself for a long time and I agree, it’s very helpful to him to find the one person who can help him believe in himself again, even if it’s just as a friend. Yes he had a very contemplative moment with Regina trying to convince her that maybe she was heading down the wrong path and it didn’t work (and then she tried to kill him and he had no problem letting her die to sacrifice herself for everyone else if she wanted to). I don’t see hope for these two for anything much simply because together, in their depths of despair and revenge and all of it, they would be toxic. To me it would be like having Rumple with Cora. Hook showed us that he is realizing how bad of an idea wasting your life on vengeance is and is moving away from all of that. I have hope that Regina will do the same and is a little bit, but I don’t see these two being best buddies anytime soon, if ever (and frankly I hope not – I see nothing positive in their interaction other than it shows that Hook is yet another person trying to help Regina out and she once again didn’t take the offer). I have hope she will in the future, but both are easily swayed to darkness and need someone lighter to help keep them on the right path. Hook is realizing that right now and I hope it continues, whereas because of Regina’s desire to get Henry back, she may slip and do “whatever it takes” which could cause conflict with the others on the ship. They all want the same thing, but will differ on their methods and I could see Regina and Rumple going up against the Charmings for sure. I’m not sure what Hook will do but I’d like to see him show he’s learned his lesson rather than pull a Regina.
I can definitely see where people are coming from on wanting Hook & Emma to be at least good friends as they understand each other (again, in a more positive way than he connects to the villains because she brings out the best in him, and guides him away from that path rather than spiraling like Regina) and am glad SF people at least like the idea of Hook being a part of things (hopefully for both Bae’s and for Emma’s sakes) though I still see it as much more setup to a potential romantic involvement. Emma felt connected to him very early on or she wouldn’t have said what she did when she left him up the beanstalk. It was a practical, strategic move and she could have just said “sorry, needed the headstart”. She was upset about doing that to him because she trusted him and was enjoying the obvious (or not so obvious to some it seems) connection and was afraid to believe in it because of the pain before with Neal and it was paralleled to that relationship.
I can’t just ignore that of all the times they chose to show Emma’s backstory, it was to show her potentially moving on with someone present day but being afraid to because she couldn’t trust her instincts. This was also directly after an episode where we saw Daniel – Regina’s supposed true love tell her to love again so the idea of moving forward and not letting the past dictate your life was mentioned just prior to that, and in fact, since it happened in 2×05 just prior to Emma beginning to interact with Hook in the first place in the same episode she met him. Usually the stories parallel what’s going on in the present day so that we can understand why people react to different things. They chose to show her last real relationship up against her feeling drawn to someone she was too afraid to trust directly because of how things ended up with Neal, to the point that instead of letting him leave her somewhere, she jumped the gun and locked him up the beanstalk. If she hadn’t said what she did, I can completely see why people would say it’s all in our heads even though I think they had great chemistry the whole episode, but the fact remains that she did which at least brings it into question. Still up for debate as with any other line said on the show (especially since some are SO frustrating to work around) but personally I think it’s an important one, especially given the context, not to mention how she said it.
She also didn’t need to let him literally single-handedly bandage her hand but she let him take care of her (just like with Graham) and she didn’t have to pull him into an embrace to keep him from the tripwire, she could have just pulled him back a little. The closeness to him was affecting her and I’m not sure how at least a little bit of tension between them went undetected by so many unless the flashbacks were just too captivating. I agree that in the flashbacks Neal had his moments so I can see why that obviously happened for some (can’t say I personally was too impressed even though I went in expecting to love him once we knew it was Bae because I absolutely love young Bae). I just felt that the tension between Hook & Emma was a little more obvious than it apparently was – hence the confusion I guess. I get why it was obvious that SF were sweet together back in the day before outside forces split them apart and it makes for a sweet story so it was a good starting point for that relationship as well for sure. I was far more torn after Tallahassee (even though I was already in love with CS) and it wasn’t until after that and present day that I really flipped the switch. I definitely felt more connected to what was happening in her life today than what happened years ago other than to how deeply it was affecting her though.
We’ve seen that Hook meant it when he said he wouldn’t have done the same to her because he came back at the end. That reinforced her trust instincts as well because she wanted to trust him and even though she and her family have betrayed him multiple times now, he still came back and is helping them (honestly regardless of the reason: he came back and that’s what she needed, whether he’s a friend or more, she needed someone to do something that she believed that they would). She believed so much in him she didn’t even check the pouch. His coming back proves her instincts (initially and again at the diner where she thought he had accepted her offer) were right about him and had she not betrayed him first, he never would have. Betraying Emma was never part of his plan – even Cora knew this and he likely would not have even hesitated to help Emma and felt the need to run off to save himself in the finale. He asked her what her reasoning was but he had already given her the empty pouch and was still mulling over his options. Everyone there betrayed him, and he very easily could have gone off to save his own skin but he didn’t, thus vindicating her belief in him (and they made an effort to show her reaction to him coming back – he gives her hope, a chance to believe in *something* whether it’s him or her instincts or whatever you want to call it, at a time when she desperately needs some).
I know people hate his innuendos and don’t think he treats Emma iin a special way (and I certainly don’t think he’s in love with her yet) but there was a LOT of built up tension in Tallahassee. The Handwrap (reminiscent of Willabeth in PotC and Rapunel/Flynn in Tangled, also of Graham helping clean her wounds after her fight with Regina), the embrace that she fought against but not hard enough (enough to show she was fighting it, not enough to actually put a stop to it) – let’s face it Emma would just punch somebody if she didn’t want certain types of attention. She certainly threatens it enough. It reminded some of us of when she was so adament that she wasn’t upset by the Graham/Regina stuff (to the point where MM felt the need to tell her she was the only one unaware of her feelings for Graham) but clearly wanted to open up and give Graham a chance and eventually did so (albeit a little too late *sniffle) but all of that piled together is why CSers love Tallahassee just as much as SFs do. Hey at least we can agree on something, right?)
There are a lot of things in their interactions that are completely unnecessary. Hook is perfectly capable of talking to anybody but he focuses on her. True she may be the only one he really knows or likes around there, but they make a point of showing us their reactions to one another constantly. There was so much time that could have been used for something else in the finale and they gave us lots of lingering looks. When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple. They showed the couples. I feel like there’s *at least* a good foundation for the possibility of something which is what sets up the triangle (and again there’s a much longer list, I’m just addressing the points made here).
I agree that romance is not on anybody’s priority list for right now because the focus is on Henry and I’m sure that Hook does feel some attachment because of Bae but I would like to argue one point and I know Hook had that awkward line to Charming and I hope we get more information on how long Bae was with him because it’s driving me batty but I’m not sure I feel comfortable saying that Bae was ever his son. He was willing to give up his revenge and wanted to raise Bae as his son, but I’m not sure he ever got the chance. To me, based on what we’ve seen so far, it’s similar to Regina & Owen. I do believe he absolutely wanted Bae to be his son back then and I look forward to seeing how their relationship progresses over the years as I really loved what little time they did have together before Bae discovered Milah’s picture, but I think they’re entirely different situations between Hook / Bae & Emma / Henry. Also he didn’t even know Henry was in danger when he first came back to help. In fact Henry would have been the ONLY one safe (as Adam has tweeted that Alexandra wouldn’t have been because she was conceived in FTL *technicalities*)
That whole scene where he was “working with” GOAT reminded me more of his self-preservation mode and when asked if he was in his “absolutely” should have been sending off MAJOR red flags to GOAT because it was not remotely convincing. He knew that what they found on Regina (who he tried to help out but she wasn’t having any of it – yet another time he has made someone an offer and they’ve refused him) was bad for everyone and he didn’t want innocents to suffer. He chose to help long before he ever knew there was any involvement with Bae. He came back at the end after knowing that, but I’m not sure I’d classify that as him and Emma both doing things “for their sons.” I do agree that Henry will be the focus though and I don’t think should CS happen that it will be because one or both are pursuing that anytime soon if ever, but would rather be a slow progression that comes out of nowhere and then they eventually realize it.
Ditto with the in-law stuff which drives me even battier – Milah couldn’t marry Hook because she was married to Rumple (though they obviously behaved as such) and Emma was never married to Neal, so none of this in-law stuff ever validates an argument.
Now backing up to what Phee said because it was on a different page & I just remembered to check (I’m usually so much better at these things grr – I blame the forum being down. Nice forum. Behave!):
One thing I would definitely like to address is that yes, over time my opinions on things have changed slightly. Obviously I’m far more Pro-CS in the CS thread because it’s the only safe place around here to be that, including forums & live-chats. It’s aggravating but it’s also the truth 99% of the time. There are days where I feel like it doesn’t make any sense at all for SF, and then I read or see something that changes things slightly to where I’m more torn (like this thread has helped remind me of being more torn earlier on in the season for sure) and then there are days when the “evidence” is more compelling for me to believe in my ship and not doubt so much. Obviously when I’m just slightly more torn but still in love with my ship I don’t go back to the CS thread and say guys guess what, I’m more ok if we have to settle (though I do mention it occasionally, especially if I’m on a worry rant instead of an I had a great thought today ramble).
So things do change overtime and I hope that’s true of everyone. Just like there are days when I put more significance on a line or a look or a screenshot and then somebody mentions something that counteracts that. I’m all about having legitimate reasons to believe, and if there was something to erase every single thing on my list other than it just being what I want then I would find a way to accept that. There’s no point in shipping if there’s 0 chance of it happening.
I know my comments in the CS thread are not often kind to Neal because I do have issues with him that others don’t. I remember the comments I think you’re mentioning Phee, though goodness knows how far back they are as that thread is massive, but I definitely remember having days where it just didn’t compute to me at all based on what we know of Emma and what things they’ve bothered to show us and chew up time showing us when we know they cut lots out of each episode. I still love my ship and believe in it, but I also have days where I’m more open to SF than others, usually after something has been presented in a nice and logical way. There are definitely days, especially on first reactions to things, where I didn’t see it at all (and I started off very torn even though I became a CSer instantly – both stories are compelling to me personally, I just like one over the other) and over time things stacked up for CS in a way that they just hadn’t for SF.
That’s why this thread has been so great (long, but great) in that it’s presenting SF to me in a nice & positive light without attacking me for loving Hook. Every thing I have seen (and hopefully everything I have said in response) has come across as being “yes but consider this” and “I see what you’re saying though I interpreted that scene entirely differently.” These are all things I can definitely get behind because at the end of the day, those things aren’t going to change, but they might plant a seed of “well hmm, I hadn’t noticed this or that or the other and maybe that is a setup for it if it happens” – at least if that seed is there, potentially down the line if the opposite of what any given person wants to have happen happens, they may remember that and say “oh, so that didn’t come completely out of left field. I didn’t see it originally but I know a lot did, good for them.” I’d really like to think that as heartbroken as any of us would be if we don’t get our first choice for ships, that we’ll be kind to one another and hope that whoever is left has a ship they are equally as passionate down the line for.
I know with Lost I preferred one over the other, was sad when it turned out differently because it made no sense to me why bother with it going as far as it did and then just switch it up, and am still to this day learning to love the 2nd pairing for my favorite guy, but I fully accept that there were clues along the way early on that set up the triangle but ultimately ended up with the pairings that were there. It wasn’t out of left field (though I hope that on OUAT it’s handled a little bit better) and I learned to find the sweet moments in the 2nd pairing so I could try to be happy for my favorite guy. It certainly didn’t stop me from loving the show and while I don’t want to get my heart broken again, Hook’s my guy and I have hope he’ll have a great love story regardless of who it’s with, and I want the same for Neal even though he’s not my first choice. It’s a show about True Love! We all want them to be with their TL, right? There’s really no need to argue because as awesome as a relationship may be, if they’re ultimately supposed to be with someone else and are better suited for that person, then maybe that’s where they’re meant to be. I’m sure Rumple was gutted with Milah and then Cora, but I’m pretty sure he’d also say ultimately he needs to be with Belle. I sincerely hope that’s the case for the 3 people in the triangle as well, even though it will be excruciating to watch that aspect unfold to begin with as somebody will be hurt. *sniffle*
Phee I love what you said about wanting to reach in the screen and hug Hook! Especially coming from a huge SF fan it makes me happy to see that more are embracing (or rather, wanting to embrace, sometimes literally!) Hook as a character. I hope everyone saw the real emotion in the finale and are at least a little more open to him as a character, even if they don’t want him with Emma (seriously the hatred around here constantly trying to get rid of Hook and/or Belle is ridiculous!). My heart was absolutely shattered when he got emotional. I loved his scenes with young Bae (Dylan is amazing!) and they looked so great together and then his heart was broken all over again. He’s not as bad of a guy as people want to believe! Also until we see things on the actual show, we can’t read into what we think he’ll be based on knowledge of other versions of the story. After all, they’ve turned many of the stories their heads and right now Hook seems to be more of an Anti-Hero than a villain and on the flip side, Peter Pan sure doesn’t sound like the typical PP hero version I’m familiar with. We cannot make assumptions because they could do literally anything.
And I do not believe the promo department for a second…”see how this charming swashbuckler became the greatest villain of all time” um…yeah right uh…no. Even if he were just a straight-up villain with no goodness at all – unlikely on this show – then Flook kinda invalidates villain status, at least on the level that they were suggesting. His whole arc so far up until his recent dropping of revenge has literally been “you tore the heart of the woman I loved out and crushed it front of me. She died in my arms and I want to kill you because of this after spending centuries trying to figure out to do so.” If anybody is capable of deep love, it’s Hook – not saying his methods are good and I was just as upset with him as anyone else, but that he is capable of loving deeply and his whole journey has been about love just as much as what Rumple went through to get Bae back (doing far worse things along the way) etc etc. I get why *some* RumBelle people hate him and it’s because he’s been against their guy and I completely get that (I was gutted when I liked him so much to realize he was pitting himself against Rumple and that would mean he wouldn’t make it for long – so glad he’s giving that up!), but I personally don’t understand defending Rumple and not making some allowances for Hook in the grand scheme of things. (Personally I love both characters and want to see them working together albeit strained, rather than trying to kill each other).Likewise as much as we CSers love to hang onto the fact that the promo department used footage of CS in its Timeless Love promo and not SF, they just can’t be taken seriously because of all their past screwups. I was happy to see that they used #HookTheHero around finale time but they could not have been more wrong earlier on – if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!
The last few times SF has been broached to me personally, it hasn’t been in the best of light and has usually just made me more defensive of my ship and focus on the points that I’ve had to use to explain why I like it (especially when anybody who asks then turns around and says that Colin is hot and that’s what you really meant to say *eye roll* – so glad to know that some SFers think he’s hot too – cause let’s face it, he is – but that’s not a reason to ship someone. I am more than happy to enjoy his hotness without having it affect my ship and I’m kinda sick of seeing people say “well whoever ___ ends up with better be hot!” Sometimes people surprise you and the more you get to know them, the better looking they become!)
So I am sure I am just as guilty of “bashing” Neal at times as others are of bashing Hook in a shipper thread especially, but I genuinely do want Neal to find happiness and have discovered recently that a) all of my issues regarding him are connected to Emma and it has nothing to do with him as a person and b) he’s not all that bad when you take everything into account. When I was first torn, I ended up having to be so defensive of Hook because it felt like nobody else was. I do think there are many valid points that have been brought up about Neal and all it does is give me hope that I go back to being torn so that I can be happy regardless of her choice and more importantly UNDERSTAND her choice. One of my biggest gripes is that I like Emma as a character so much for who she is today and nothing I have seen *so far* suggests to me that she would be staying true to her character if she goes back to Neal *right now* – I think we can all agree everyone has a long way to go before any of these couples will be happy and it is definitely a slow journey. I worry about Emma being true to the Emma we know and again, *so far* that makes me lean heavily in Hook’s favor. It absolutely leaves the door open for the show to try to change my mind and as I’ve had in my sig for awhile now, I’m open to anything we haven’t SEEN yet and only judge it based on that, so there’s plenty of time for Neal to come out swinging and show me why he’s the right one for Emma in the longrun. So far the only time I remember rooting for him (initial run-through, I haven’t rewatched a lot of this season yet so have just been keeping up with various podcasts / forums), was when he returned to the apartment to protect Emma from Rumple. I was THRILLED in that moment because it gave me hope and that’s what it’s all about.
I’ve been begging the show for ages to give me a reason to believe that should she choose that route, and have it not be going against character and what she’s been saying all along and that it won’t feel out of obligation and will be her actual choice. I don’t think they’ll go the obligation route since Adam agreed that being together for Henry isn’t a reason, and I don’t think it would be *entirely* out of character for her to want to make it work with her first love, especially knowing that he didn’t want to let her go. I just worry based on some of how she’s been presented before that she will be contradicting herself *from what we know right now* if she doesn’t at least struggle with it a bit (and I think she will regardless) because she has had a tough stance on things like “wanting someone vs actually making a choice to be with them.” She’s accepted that Snowing gave her up for a good reason and she’s brought people she doesn’t like all that much into the fold like Regina so I completely see her having *some kind* of a good relationship with Neal in the future. I think he may have to work hard to win her over (and in the process, Neal-doubters like myself), but then that would be the show answering the need for showing why it makes sense so I’d be ok with that.
I’m hesitant to rule out anything at this point but I hold on for dear life because I do believe they’ve set things up a certain way but we really won’t know til we see it play out. It’s going to be a longggg season for everyone (though never long enough) since it’s guaranteed that Hook & Emma will be spending time together and Eddy just loves to remind everybody that Emma thinks Neal is dead – which also isn’t a reason to form a relationship. I want whatever relationship she ends up in to be realistic and worthy of such an awesome character and I have hope that regardless of WHO she chooses that it will be right for her. I just don’t want it to be “because ____ is true” when it’s from the opposite pairing. As much as I mention Neal as to why I think she’s better with Hook (because the past does affect who she is today), I don’t want anybody’s ultimate choice to be because they thought someone was dead. Basically I don’t want anyone to settle for their 2nd choice.
They put in Daniel telling Regina to find love again so that they could have characters who have lost loves find love again. It doesn’t undermine the previous love but it doesn’t close the characters off forever anyway. Also nobody to this point that has lost a love has necessarily been a *TL* – they were “truly loved” for sure or people like Rumple, Regina or Hook wouldn’t react the way they did to losing them. I just don’t think that their spiraling and being the opposite type of person from what the person who loved them is what they would have wanted, nor does it make it *TL* per se. You would think it would inspire them to honor the person more than spiraling out of control in such a dark fashion (ie: Rumple said he wanted to honor Bae by doing the right thing in saving his son, even if the boy is his undoing whereas Rumple, Regina, and Hook going after revenge in the way that they did with their first loves that we saw were all very dark and out of control). I include Rumple because I think he did truly love his family (Rumple & baby Bae feels *sniff*) but I don’t think anyone would argue Rumple & Milah were TL at all. Rumple tried to mock Hook & Milah by calling what they had twu wuv but there was no confirmation other than that they were willing to sacrifice themselves for each other and we know that Rumple does respect TL, or at least in particular Snowing – I swear he wishes he were Charming sometimes just to have that much faith and belief and trust – didn’t RC basically say he plays it like Rumple wants to be Charming?) And we know that Regina was devastated when Daniel was taken from her and it’s held her back, but he also told her to love again and while I like the idea of only having one “true” love, that would also be very depressing if that person were taken away from you.
I know I mentioned the quote about sometimes there are just people you choose for reasons that may not make sense to others but it’s just how you feel and she may very well go back to Neal because she just feels that and wants to make it work and that’s enough for her. I have faith the writers will not make it feel like “this option is bad for her but she wants it anyway so tough” but rather, they have laid the ground work for it regardless and it could definitely go either way right now for me. (I still love CS and will support and root for them for as long as I have reasons to and right now, I still feel that way but feel better about the outcome of the triangle than I did before, even if I don’t get my way…again – in which case I may watch and love future shows with the same writers but might have to just give up on shipping cause I’m right with most shows but ugh it’s so heartbreaking to be wrong! It’s why I’m so afraid to commit too much to anything right this minute having taken a step back from the episodes for a bit. I may feel differently once I do my rewatch and end up back in my CS bubble of feels, but I’m at least more open to really looking into the Neal option as well which is something I planned on trying to analyze anyway to see what was really there. Netflix needs to the get the episodes so I can screenshot and have fun with it rather than FFing on the dvr >.<). I do agree with the RumBelle thing as I had completely forgotten he couldn’t feel that she was alive. He didn’t believe himself worthy and was vulnerable to Regina’s comments for sure. I don’t think that Emma has the same doubts, especially since I think she became vindicated in her feelings but she also doesn’t expect anything good to happen to her either so I could see that impairing that feeling, whereas Charming always has faith. She was certainly looking at it as “he is injured and there’s no hospital on the other side” so to her it’s just a matter of time and she believes he’s gone. (She also NEVER thinks of her magic unless somebody points it out to her or it’s last second panic – I’m surprised she never thought to try to do anything in that moment, especially with how emotional she was getting. Yes she was distracted emotionally and it takes her awhile to jump to that conclusion, but she usually manages to if it’s truly the last second and instead she let him go. Not sure what her magic really entails just yet, I think we’ll get more of that in S3, so not sure if she could have done much of anything / what would have happened if nobody went through the portal. IE: would it have kept getting bigger until it sucked somebody in?) I would like to argue the point about what Neal may or may not have known/been expecting. The impression I’ve gotten from the 2 times we’ve seen Neal & August interact is that when the curse is broken, August will let Neal know (which he did, including after a reminder immediately before heading to SB) but nowhere did I get the impression that August was going to tell Emma everything and that SHE would go after HIM. Now, I get why that’s a fun headcanon and I’m not ruling it out. I’m just saying that I personally never got the impression that just because the curse was broken that she would know absolutely everything. I don’t recall August promising him that.
I see why Neal may think that, in which case he should have waited a tiny bit longer after the curse broke before starting something with someone else if he was waiting to see (August went to see him right before he went to SB and Tamara “bumped into” him immediately after, so…if he was waiting/hoping to see what her reaction was, he failed miserably at doing that since he started something with Tamara before August even got to SB in the first place, much less may or may not have said anything to Neal. In that case I kinda *really* hope he wasn’t planning on doing that because what if Emma had found out the truth from August and went to find him, only to find him with Tamara? It was bad enough she spent 2 years in Tallahassee and they’re both hurting over all of it right now but that would have been BRUTAL. I really think all August told him was that he’d let him know when he could go and find Emma. (I can’t remember if he JUST said the postcard or if he said you can go find her after it’s over, does anybody have the quotes from those 2 interactions?)
Neal’s reaction to everything in Manhattan was confusing to me, though I agree that he had a lot going on in his head (similar to what JMO was talking about at PaleyFest with a million emotions having to play out on her face in 3 seconds because of all the new information she was getting). It was a great episode but I haven’t seen it in awhile so someone can maybe clear that up a bit. I know he was happy to see her when he realized who it was, I can’t remember if he ever knew/suspected why someone was chasing him. He seemed determined to get away, was happy when he saw it was her but I still didn’t get the impression he thought she was supposed to be looking for him. Otherwise he would have answered the door like a normal person I would think. His attitude completely shifted when he saw it was her and was genuinely shocked to hear his dad was in NY as well. I suppose he was on the run from goodness knows what this time, but I thought / hoped he had gotten his life together, especially since he wanted to quit that lifestyle years ago as well as how nicely he was dressed in the premiere. He very well could have been on the run from someone random but again, he didn’t even answer the buzzer to find out if it might be her before running out the fire escape so I can’t really grasp the idea *right now* that he ever expected her to show up or even had the hopes that she might. August sent a dove so while the dove may have a magical way of finding someone specific, but it’s not like August was like “oh by the way, here’s Neal’s address – I just sent him a postcard.”
So I’m not sure what Neal DID know or expect to happen once the curse was broken. Some have pointed out that it looks like Bae moved after getting the postcard (personally I think they just changed the apartment a LOT, if they were trying to show he moved because he got scared and ran again they certainly didn’t make it obvious, at least not on initial watch), but I don’t think that he was waiting around for Emma to show up at all post-curse. In fact, I think he was super-surprised to see her (pleased, but surprised – at that point he *may* have been thinking that August told her everything since she was in NY as well as chasing him and that added to his shock and subsequent anger at her bringing Rumple too, but I don’t believe that he was *expecting* her to show up at all post curse – not because he didn’t believe that she would, but because he never had reason to think so because August never said he’d send Emma to find him, he said he’d send a postcard to him when it was safe to go after her).
I also agree that no matter what I want all 3 to get along someday. There’s so much potential in all the possible friendships & romantic relationships alike in that triangle and ultimately they all need to be there for Henry.
I will also agree that *at this moment* Neal would have a harder time being just friends with Emma (and yes it would be brutal for him if he fights hard to get back specifically to her and finds her with the pirate who he blames for his family turning out the way it did on top of that). I was encouraged by the MRJ interview not long ago where he said Neal’s focus is finding family. I’d like to think that since he told Emma to let him go for Henry’s sake that his focus is getting back to Henry first and foremost. I’m sure in the back of his mind he’ll be trying to get back to Emma too…I just want his focus to be on Henry and anything else is a bonus. He seems intent on making up for the mistakes their parents made and that will endear him to Emma and the audience as well. I just don’t want them to show this epic quest to get back to Emma only to have her say it was closure for her and have him be stomped on again, nor do I think that even if that’s what happens she has any obligation to go back. As I said previously I don’t read the ILYs as being “well we’re together now so if you do happen to make it out alive even though we pretty much just agreed that you’ll probably die, come and find me and I’ll be single.” So I’d rather they show him as a father fighting to get back to his son first and foremost.
I think he’ll be upset with them for being even friends which is what I expect them to be by the time they are reunited with Neal. I honestly DON’T want a full-fledged CS by the time Neal gets back unless Emma is prepared to say this is my choice and I’m sorry because then that reeks of “well you were dead and I’ve moved on” and implies that she was only with Hook because Neal was “dead” and frankly that’s not fair to anyone.
I agree that Hook may feel like he needs to step back out of respect for all of them. Emma needs to come to grips with her feelings for everyone and he’s had more time to adjust to Milah being gone and not an option and is finally moving forward from that. He knows what it feels like though and Emma is getting another chance after thinking Neal was dead so I expect him to give it to her. It’ll be interesting to see how she reacts to that, especially since most people in her life have manipulated her and she’ll finally get to choose, but for everyone’s happiness and sanity, they all need to sort out their issues before a choice can come into play.
I don’t see Emma as being wishy-washy and I certainly don’t want her to string them along. If anything I think she’ll push it to the backburner while doing other stuff and then something may happen that forces her to admit who she actually is in love with right now.
I think part of the thought process Hook was working through specifically in the diner scene is the fact that the guy who broke Emma to the point where she didn’t trust him (knowing that she wanted to since she said it herself) is the same kid he once tried to be family to. He’s definitely attracted to Emma and as you said, admires her feisty attitude and has always been impressed with her / complimenting her. The ultimate compliment he could give her was that she would make a good pirate. So I do think he will struggle knowing that the guy in her past is one he has a connection to as well. He may even blame himself for not fighting harder to get Bae to change his mind back then or he never would have been there to hurt Emma (as he doesn’t know all the details surrounding that).
I agree that he’ll question how deep his feelings go but based on what we’ve seen, he’s a pretty tough nut to crack and was deeply in love with Milah to the point that he’s spent centuries focused on revenge which he is just now walking away from and Emma is a huge part of that, just like her influence is helping him see the bigger picture. They’re both helping each other trust again and open up – I think he’s been “Hook” for far too long and in Emma’s presence is the first we’ve seen of “Killian Jones” and I hope that continues.
So we’ll have to see how long they are away from Neal (and NL time is different so they might be gone a few days his time and goodness knows how long in theirs – something he should understand even if he doesn’t like it), and how close of a bond they form in that time. Again I don’t think it’ll be romantic off the bat and I think Hook will let Emma figure things out but he could easily fall for her without pursuing it because he’s giving her time and still be gutted / have a hard time being around them with Henry when they’re all reunited. Just because he won’t act on it early on since he knows she’s in pain doesn’t mean he won’t potentially feel something and just be waiting for her to seem ready, only to have to deal with all of these emotions all over again when Neal shows up. He may convince himself it’s OK for now because Neal is “dead” and there’s nothing he can do about it and Emma deserves to be happy and so does he, but goodness only knows what will happen when Neal gets back.
I absolutely love Hook’s quote and I am a little torn on what to think about it because I do think he will be FAR more sympathetic to SF than Neal will ever be to CS (even as a friendship). Hook will want Bae to be happy and I don’t think he’ll want to inflict more pain on him but I also don’t see him being a doormat, especially if Neal tries to control Emma in any way. By control I mostly mean get mad at Emma for wanting Hook in her life or standing up for him for saving Henry. (I fully expect that confrontation and I see Hook really trying as he genuinely did want to give up his revenge for Bae and Neal just having none of it for the time being). I think Hook will back up and let Emma decide, but Neal may force his hand into feeling the need to get defensive too. I’d like him to fight as far as showing that he wants it too, but to also fight for it to be Emma’s choice, and be understanding of the entire situation. One of the things I love about David from when he was initially in the triangle was offering MM a choice and just saying “If you choose this, if you choose us, you know where I’ll be” – he wasn’t pressuring her into it, he was making it about her and her choice and then taking a step back. (Yes I realize everything went downhill after that, but this was when he was close to being Charming as possible before the David memories over and I loved that moment because it was hopeful but not pushy and I would like something similar of Hook, even if Emma chooses differently.)
I think that’s the only way to combine Hook’s mixed emotions regarding both Emma & Bae, as well as whatever his own are by that point. I think he’d step back for sure if he’s not completely in love with her, but he may be by that point and just waiting for her to be ready. Likewise they could all be the best of friends and as you said Phee, maybe he’d meet someone like Ariel. We just don’t know yet and right now we’re only guessing based on our own interpretations of what has to happen.
As for briefly touching on the other potential relationships, I’ve posted in the Hookriel thread before & go back and forth on it because they’d have to connect Eric / have her be aged up / see how they do once they interact but I do have it as a backup for now. I think we have similar issues regarding anybody being paired with Regina *at this moment* because she does have a long way to go. As much as Hook is introspective right now and Regina is trying to be better, we’ve been through this a few times with Regina so I’m hesitant to say they’d do anything but help each other spiral. It’s one of the reasons I like the idea of her with Neal because he is such a good guy who has been equally if not moreso been beaten down (and by some of the same people) but chooses not to go after revenge. He’s always reminded me of Daniel and she definitely needs more of that type. Other than *potentially* Neal, I haven’t seen anybody I would deem as a potential love interest for Regina and likewise, other than Emma I haven’t seen anything to base a relationship with Hook on with anyone either, though the same goes for Neal other than *potentially* Regina. We are getting new characters once in awhile and they all have a long way to go as people first anyway so things may change. I’m inclined to think that in some way, Neal, Regina, and Hook will all wind up being a part of the twisted family in more ways than just being connected to Henry and that the pairings between the 4 of them will happen. Can I get on board with HQ right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more when people aren’t cramming it down my throat as simply a way to get Hook out of the way so SF can happen? ABSOLUTELY.
I definitely do not want them to have to find a place for Hook to fit in and have it feel smushed. Emma offered him a chance to be a part of something which sounds like a general invite and I know the writers/producers love him, but I fear that if they don’t set him up with someone and have it be integral somehow (could be Emma, Ariel may be important – I hope she’s not a 1-shot deal, somebody else could step forward, who knows), that he will be backburnered and while that would make some people happy, I would hate to see it happen. It’s one of the extra perks (not why I think it will or has to happen but would make me happy because of it) reasons why I lean toward CS because Neal is guaranteed a spot either way. He has other connections as does Regina that are super important and no matter what, will always have to be a part of Emma’s & Henry’s lives. I’d like to think that should the SF family reunite that Hook will still be around and a part of things, but with so much bad blood and no real reason to be there I do fear for the character sometimes. (Again, I don’t really buy into the idea *currently* that Bae ever really got much of a chance to be a son to Hook and at this stage of the game, he has his father back so therefore doesn’t really need Hook in that capacity now either).
I’ll agree that it would help Hook grow as a person if he is helping out to honor Bae, but again he went to help out originally (before Charming double-crossed him – thus proving to Hook everything he already believed) too which had nothing to do with him. It does show that he was willing to try though which is a good step for everyone regardless. I have hope for 99% of the characters to either have a moment of redemption before they die or to do a 180 and find happiness and I consider Hook to be included in that latter category at this point, especially since they’ve made him a regular and added him to the dvd cover (heck, Henry isn’t even on those). I expect MRJ to be added to it next year since he was technically only recurring this year – Bae is very important whether he ends up with someone I want him to or not).
RG I completely agree – can’t stand the constant bashing of a character and wanting them dead or gone, much less mocking people who like them or parading it in their faces that they were wrong and won’t get what they want. I think part of the reason I tuned out of SF discussions for the most part was because I got so sick of the celebrating in mean ways. Absolutely be happy when you get a moment like in SSTTR, but laughing at CSers and saying “haha CS is dead” is just mean. I certainly wasn’t celebrating the idea of Neal being dead. We’re all Oncers and as we’ve proven here, we can get along and agree to disagree! We can try our best to explain what we see and where we’re coming from, but at the end of the day everyone will interpret things differently and we’ll have to wait and see what the show decides to actually you know, show us! (I’d really like to think that by the end of all things, it will become very obvious why Emma makes whatever choice she makes and that a cheesy montage isn’t needed to show that it was set up there from the beginning. Likewise I think that BOTH potential ships have lots of setup involved along the way and someday on a rewatch these things will become far more obvious for whoever doubts the ship that winds up happening).
I fully admit there are many things that CS holds onto that may or may not mean anything, and I’m sure the same is true of SF since we all see things differently. Will I go through and find all the little things I personally think set up my ship since I don’t think it’s just one or two little things? Absolutely. Will absolutely ALL of them be intentional and meant to make me believe in it? Probably not. I am proven wrong plenty of times and happy to nix various arguments along the way when that argument proves to be invalid. We just don’t know for sure yet and the little things add up over time. I’m sure the same is absolutely true of every ship out there. I may not have bothered to ship Emma with anyone in S1 (except mildly Graham but certainly not hardcore) but I saw why others liked the *potential* story arcs for each and as I’m sure I said somewhere, last season before we knew anything *for sure* about Henry’s dad since Emma’s comments were obviously coming from a place of being hurt and we didn’t know the reasons, I actually really really liked the *idea* of SF so it’s not impossible for me to learn to love it again if needbe, I just prefer CS right now and have since their introduction. I didn’t get the same gut punch for SF when we finally met Neal, that’s all. To each their own!
Sometimes opinions change when we get more information or are presented with another option we find equally or more compelling on a personal level, but that doesn’t mean it can’t swing back. I haven’t seen anything in S2 that made me give up CS or make me feel compelled to 100% root for SF, but that doesn’t mean it’s not impossible to make us love or at least tolerate whatever happens later on.
I’ve been saying all season that it’s too early to call endgame for Emma because she is the one main character who isn’t Disney-canon – we didn’t grow up knowing who she was meant to be with. We knew going into triangles like Snowing/Abigail & MAP who had to end up with who and they proved those early! We SAW Snowing’s TLK in the pilot, we SAW Philora’s TLK in their first intro at the start of S2. We didn’t see anything that proved it with Emma because her relationship with Neal started out in a world without magic and if it’s not Neal but Hook, then it hasn’t progressed to that level yet. We just don’t know!
I will say this regarding Lost – some of the people I hated (and I mean HATED) at the start grew to be people I got very emotional over by the end. One couple that was together at the start I was sure were awful for one another and thought they were leading toward her leaving to be with someone else a little bit of the way through – and then the married couple were great together & the guys ended up being best friends! Was a total curveball for me because I thought they were predictably going down a certain path so you never can tell. That couple I hated became one of my favorite storylines but it took time. (Whereas I still didn’t get my main ship and had to learn to like the other ship for the guy I really wanted to have be happy – I’m still learning to tolerate it but I find things about it that I like and hold onto and for the rest, there’s always the memories).
I put a lot of emphasis on camera shots where others say it’s just who was standing there at the time or what made for a good lasting image to do whatever with. We all put our personal filters into everything and as long as we’re honest about that, we’re able to have discussions like these. For myself, the season was book-ended by seeing Neal (the one who didn’t come back) and Hook (the one who did). Likewise, looking at the language Neal’s is about the past, and Hook’s is looking to the future. I also look at some of the wording along the way that they chose to use with Hook with things like “We want the same things” and “Everything we need is right in front of us” (as he walks right in front of her) but those also work WITHIN THE SCENE and context is important.
Do I love the idea that Emma sat by Hook’s bedside til he woke up? Of course. She was protecting him from Rumple but she’s likely to want to protect everyone anyways (though she didn’t sit by Greg’s bedside, just saying). Did she say “I’d pick you”? Yes (and while I would love to cheer about that just as the two lines previously mentioned, context is everything and this context wasn’t so good *shakes head*. Do I count them as *possible* things worded in such a way that someday we’ll look back and see the language was there indicating it all along? Of course I do, because if I didn’t believe it and see things that way, there would be no point in shipping my heart out and ruining my enjoyment of the show when people insist on destroying a ship I love. Can I say it’s not purely coincidence because things they needed were literally in front of them or the fact that they did want the same things right that moment because they wanted to get to SB? Sadly I can’t. Nobody but H&K can definitively say it meant anything or meant nothing.
I love the wording, as a writer myself (doubt anybody ever would have guessed THAT *shakes fist at the character limit problem & hides*) I am all about the wording (though I should really reread & edit my posts more than I do) and reading between the lines – one of the reasons I love Rumple & his technicalities in contracts – but at the end of the day, we also know that some of the lines have been SERIOUSLY screwed up because they seem to contradict things we know or mess with the t-word etc. It is all about the context.)
And now onto part 2…(now I see the trouble KFChimera was having using all the quotes!)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
PART 2:
As somebody pointed out: we can’t stop the story in the middle. Can I take it as definitive proof that Neal is the past & Hook is the future? No, because Emma & Neal HAVE to deal with the past first whereas Emma & Hook don’t. Do I add it to my list of little things that add up that right now I feel favor CS? Yes. But at the end of the day I try to take everything with a grain of salt.
I completely understand why some see Hook and think he’s the same with everyone, or they might just be good friends and list actual reasons why he would never fall for her / let himself have her because of Bae, but then I also know people who do see that they would at least be good friends, that he does treat her differently and some of us see romantic tension we can’t imagine just disappearing. For every person that is sure Hook would never do that to Bae after hurting him so much, for 1 minute I think “well, that may be true” and then the other side of me says “but you can’t choose who you fall in love with, you just do” – which reminds of what Cora said when she realized Hook would rather align himself with Emma. (I agree that he liked Emma’s methods / reasons a lot more than Cora’s, who wouldn’t? But he was also impressed with Emma, and annoyed as he was with her for leaving him there he still would rather have worked with her. He even tried to stab Cora before she disappeared). Cora said “You chose her, and the consequences of that decision.” She even added more of the sentiment when using Aurora as a mouthpiece to get to Emma. Rumple may be biased & Cora may be evil but that doesn’t mean that neither is capable of sensing *something.* What the consequences of choosing Emma may be, including potentially a broken heart, we have yet to see. (As long as the bias is acknowledged, I don’t mind using it. I believe I mentioned it in a CS thread because I felt like Rumple was more biased in wanting his son to be happy and Cora had everything to lose by being right about Hook, but I still addressed that both sensed something – and Rumple wasn’t “wrong” in what he told Neal that he can’t marry another woman while his heart belongs to Emma. He also wasn’t wrong that Emma has some feelings she needs to work out, but Rumple does have more of a stake in the matter. As long as the biases are noted, it’s ok as I believe RG stated somewhere recently because it was getting out of hand but I digress).
I can see both sides of it though. Hook may very well fight against himself because of Bae and pull back and leave Emma very confused even, but that doesn’t mean he can help himself if it comes to that – just as she may feel like she needs a do-over on her first love but at the same time may still feel inexplicably drawn to Hook and not able to help herself. We just don’t know – yet. I want the show to go on for a long time and I really hope they don’t drag out her true love too long (especially so that they can have some time to build up a plausible and wonderful relationship for who is left) but I am hesitant to set endgame early unless it’s proven as TL somehow and the show itself acknowledges it as such.
I have an easier time putting myself in Emma’s & Hook’s shoes for some reason than I Neal’s, but I appreciate the insight into what Neal might have been feeling. Likewise I *hope* I have managed to express what I feel like Hook is battling with as well. They ALL have a lot of emotions going on, just like we would if we were in their shoes.
I agree completely Phee that it’s tough to read the individual shipper threads because we’re all grasping at straws to believe we’re right and won’t be left broken-hearted and it’s always tempting to say something but usually best not to. I’ve read the SF stuff every once in awhile and it usually just makes me want to throw something because it’s mostly “there’s nothing there” or “they’re delusional” or “making stuff up” with regards to Hook. Likewise I know I haven’t been the kindest in my wording regarding Neal when I’m surrounded by CS people because I know they understand why I’m feeling angry with him for whatever reason right at that moment. Shipper threads are not the place to actually discuss opposing ships, but rather a safe haven to not feel alone & be able to celebrate any moment (or perceived moment) for that particular couple without getting beaten upside the head for it.
Believe when I say it’s not easy to be a CSer sometimes and that we are very small in number, especially around here. So while I am happy for SF people when they do get moments and they get to celebrate, it’s equally difficult to hear “get over your ship” when a CS person mentions anything positive either. Just because we’re outnumbered doesn’t mean we don’t exist! I’m feeling slightly better *right now* thanks to this thread about how things may go down when we finally get S3 but I will freely admit I’m dreading the livechats knowing that Hook & Emma basically have to interact since they’re on the same ship / mission because there has been so much bad blood between them when we all just want Emma to be happy.
When there has been so much hatred for Hook (and Belle really which still confuses me) that it takes away the fun when you want to say something when something good happens and people jump on you and tell you to either get over it, you’re delusional, or you’re a horrible person for wanting so and so to be happy. I realize there are people who don’t even want Emma in a relationship and they’re just as entitled to that as the rest of us, and we are all entitled to an opinion, I’m just grateful that I’m seeing positive SF/CS FAN interaction. I want to be happy for whatever moments I get (especially if my ship doesn’t happy *again* >.< then I will have something to hold onto) and I want everyone else to be happy for their moments too. It's not fun having an unpopular opinion by any means, but I’m much more hopeful now that things won’t be so overboard and hopefully they’ll continue doing a good job of giving us all something to hold onto and hope for until they have to take it away. As frustrating as that is, it’s still a show about hope so while we wait for official answers on things, we can but hope for the best.
I sincerely hope that some of what I’ve said has made people feel slightly better about Hook being a viable option as you have all made me feel better about Neal being one too. It’s reminded me of why after Tallahassee I was more torn even though I have my reasons to ship CS because of it. It’s encouraging to me that people who have no reason to be open to Hook are invested in him as a character (or get emotional when he does and want to give him a hug) even if it’s just a little bit. I’m certainly hoping for Neal to find happiness and there have been moments when I wanted to give him a hug as well. They’ve all been through so much and we all just want Emma to be happy, right?
And with that I think I am close to being fried. Maybe the forum break will be a good thing and when we come back it’ll be all nice and new and shiny and then we’ll have CC & filming will start and we’ll have actual things to debate that will get us somewhere! (I thoroughly do not expect to change anyone’s minds about who to ship, and like the fact that people are at least hoping for friendship / may be mildly open if needbe down the line. We all love the show and that’s what matters but I love that so many of my Oncer friends don’t ship the same things as me (even if it would be tons easier!). It’s nice to see actual discussions rather than hatred. Makes it SO much more enjoyable for everyone!
[All of that being said I just took a look at the voting since that is what this thread was originally about and I’m sure most seeing this are skipping past the discussions at this point (not that I can blame them). I just wanted to remind people, I am NOT arguing that they were a legit couple on the show, I just don’t agree that only those 3 were options as it eliminates others that are either definitely TL or were at some point or another definitely a couple and am NOT saying that CS needs to be up there (yet) – just for anyone coming in late to the thread. The debate initially was only ever whether they *should* be included as an official TL couple / actual couple right now / supercouple of the show (meaning a front-running canon couple that is definitively TL) and I’m inclined to believe that this last category is what was used since Cinderella/Thomas and Philora weren’t used in it. If the list had been a full list of all couples ever shown to us in any capacity, then it would truly be a pick your favorite “legitimate” couple ever shown as a couple on the show poll and I wouldn’t take issue with it at all.
I fully acknowledge there are lots of SF fans and rightfully so, though I’m glad to see RumBelle getting lots of love too and that’s where my vote went for this (though I adore Snowing when they’re being Snowing – I really prefer them in FTL flashbacks and hope we get to see lots of that side of their characters enter into things in present day next season. They need to make a comeback!)
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
First off, how about a round of applause for Kat and her magical mice for writing the longest post in the history of these forums?? 😆 😉
@MysteryKat25 wrote:
He’s been out for himself for a long time and I agree, it’s very helpful to him to find the one person who can help him believe in himself again, even if it’s just as a friend. Yes he had a very contemplative moment with Regina trying to convince her that maybe she was heading down the wrong path and it didn’t work (and then she tried to kill him and he had no problem letting her die to sacrifice herself for everyone else if she wanted to). I don’t see hope for these two for anything much simply because together, in their depths of despair and revenge and all of it, they would be toxic. To me it would be like having Rumple with Cora. Hook showed us that he is realizing how bad of an idea wasting your life on vengeance is and is moving away from all of that. I have hope that Regina will do the same and is a little bit, but I don’t see these two being best buddies anytime soon, if ever (and frankly I hope not – I see nothing positive in their interaction other than it shows that Hook is yet another person trying to help Regina out and she once again didn’t take the offer). I have hope she will in the future, but both are easily swayed to darkness and need someone lighter to help keep them on the right path. Hook is realizing that right now and I hope it continues, whereas because of Regina’s desire to get Henry back, she may slip and do “whatever it takes” which could cause conflict with the others on the ship. They all want the same thing, but will differ on their methods and I could see Regina and Rumple going up against the Charmings for sure. I’m not sure what Hook will do but I’d like to see him show he’s learned his lesson rather than pull a Regina.
I’m not 100% on the HookedQueen ship (Hookriel man…I blame Phee for this). I think it’s an interesting exploration because I think unlike Cora and The Dark One (which is what Rumple totally was when they met) both of them aren’t as wicked as those two. AND for what it’s worth, Rumple changed when he fell in love with Cora. He started to become the man we see more clearly when he’s with Belle. Who is to say that love wouldn’t have changed Cora? Who is to say that love wouldn’t change Regina and Hook if they experienced it together? I think there are facets to Regina and Hook (and Emma and Neal) and that they are all very much alike which is why there is no clear ship for these four, why we keep having the debate. If it were cut and dry like Snowing or Rumbelle there would be no need for this, now would there?
She also didn’t need to let him literally single-handedly bandage her hand but she let him take care of her (just like with Graham) and she didn’t have to pull him into an embrace to keep him from the tripwire, she could have just pulled him back a little. The closeness to him was affecting her and I’m not sure how at least a little bit of tension between them went undetected by so many unless the flashbacks were just too captivating. I agree that in the flashbacks Neal had his moments so I can see why that obviously happened for some (can’t say I personally was too impressed even though I went in expecting to love him once we knew it was Bae because I absolutely love young Bae). I just felt that the tension between Hook & Emma was a little more obvious than it apparently was – hence the confusion I guess. I get why it was obvious that SF were sweet together back in the day before outside forces split them apart and it makes for a sweet story so it was a good starting point for that relationship as well for sure. I was far more torn after Tallahassee (even though I was already in love with CS) and it wasn’t until after that and present day that I really flipped the switch. I definitely felt more connected to what was happening in her life today than what happened years ago other than to how deeply it was affecting her though.
This is all very true and I think you’ll find that most of the “rational” SF’ers totally see all the feelings–whatever they may be–between Hook and Emma. Actually, over on our thread, most of us agree that Hook and Emma will have some sort of romantic interlude and that it will most likely happen right toward the end of the first half of S3, after fighting PP and saving Henry. They recognize themselves in the other, there is no denying that. It’s just a question–in my opinion–of is that enough? My best friend and I, for example, are soul mates. We recognize that we are very much alike, that we have a lot of the same traits and that there is a great deal of love between us. But there is nothing romantic or sexual. I can see CS going that way, brief romance or not. I think part of Emma will always wonder if it would have worked out with Neal. I think part of her will always want to know if she could have gotten Tallahassee with him if they tried. And until that is fully explored, whatever happened or didn’t happen with CS is going to be on the back burner.
I know people hate his innuendos and don’t think he treats Emma iin a special way (and I certainly don’t think he’s in love with her yet) but there was a LOT of built up tension in Tallahassee. The Handwrap (reminiscent of Willabeth in PotC and Rapunel/Flynn in Tangled, also of Graham helping clean her wounds after her fight with Regina), the embrace that she fought against but not hard enough (enough to show she was fighting it, not enough to actually put a stop to it) – let’s face it Emma would just punch somebody if she didn’t want certain types of attention. She certainly threatens it enough. It reminded some of us of when she was so adament that she wasn’t upset by the Graham/Regina stuff (to the point where MM felt the need to tell her she was the only one unaware of her feelings for Graham) but clearly wanted to open up and give Graham a chance and eventually did so (albeit a little too late *sniffle) but all of that piled together is why CSers love Tallahassee just as much as SFs do. Hey at least we can agree on something, right?)
Without going into a lot of it, I recently rewatched PotC and saw a ton of SF parallels with Willabeth with Hook playing the role of Jack. We talk about parallels a lot in the fandom with out ships, it’s only natural. But looking for parallels is a little bit like cloud watching: you may see a man in a hat, and I may see a giraffe but at the end of the day that cloud is neither, it’s a cloud. The writers may draw distinct parallels that are intentional, but a lot of times I think the fans are looking for parallels and will find them even if they don’t exist at the hands of the authors.
When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple. They showed the couples. I feel like there’s *at least* a good foundation for the possibility of something which is what sets up the triangle (and again there’s a much longer list, I’m just addressing the points made here).
Well that’s true but out of everyone on the JR, Regina is–to me–the most outcast. Snowing will never quite trust her, and Emma’s going to be keeping her eye on her. Hook may have opened up to Regina but he is closer to Emma right now, so that could be the reason. Again, cloud watching metaphor.
Likewise as much as we CSers love to hang onto the fact that the promo department used footage of CS in its Timeless Love promo and not SF, they just can’t be taken seriously because of all their past screwups. I was happy to see that they used #HookTheHero around finale time but they could not have been more wrong earlier on – if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!
Gosh, someone remind me. When did that video come out? Cause I’m pretty sure Neal hadn’t been seen since Tallahassee yet. I think they were trying very hard to keep his story shut up because they didn’t want to reveal that you’d be seeing him again so soon and putting him in that video would have tipped off the audience and maybe ruined the surprise that he was more important that you thought (if you’re not you know…us).
The last few times SF has been broached to me personally, it hasn’t been in the best of light and has usually just made me more defensive of my ship and focus on the points that I’ve had to use to explain why I like it (especially when anybody who asks then turns around and says that Colin is hot and that’s what you really meant to say *eye roll* – so glad to know that some SFers think he’s hot too – cause let’s face it, he is – but that’s not a reason to ship someone. I am more than happy to enjoy his hotness without having it affect my ship and I’m kinda sick of seeing people say “well whoever ___ ends up with better be hot!” Sometimes people surprise you and the more you get to know them, the better looking they become!)
*laughs because I’ve has been privy to most of these really outlandish attacks and it’s really quite tragic what my fellow shipmates on different social media do*
I do think there are many valid points that have been brought up about Neal and all it does is give me hope that I go back to being torn so that I can be happy regardless of her choice and more importantly UNDERSTAND her choice
Absolutely. If CS is endgame and TL then they better make me understand it. Because right now I see the potential for a romance–albeit a brief one–for nothing more because I think the revelation that Neal is alive is going to change a lot of things for a lot of people.
I really think all August told him was that he’d let him know when he could go and find Emma. (I can’t remember if he JUST said the postcard or if he said you can go find her after it’s over, does anybody have the quotes from those 2 interactions?
Neal: And one more thing – if anything changes, and she does her job, this insanity ends, and she’s free…
August: I’ll send you a postcard.
Can I get on board with HQ right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more when people aren’t cramming it down my throat as simply a way to get Hook out of the way so SF can happen? ABSOLUTELY.
And of course, conversely: Can I get on board QueenFire right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more if I didn’t see people say, ‘if this happens then CS is free?” ABSOLUTELY.
*moves on to part 2*
Believe when I say it’s not easy to be a CSer sometimes and that we are very small in number, especially around here. So while I am happy for SF people when they do get moments and they get to celebrate, it’s equally difficult to hear “get over your ship” when a CS person mentions anything positive either. Just because we’re outnumbered doesn’t mean we don’t exist! I’m feeling slightly better *right now* thanks to this thread about how things may go down when we finally get S3 but I will freely admit I’m dreading the livechats knowing that Hook & Emma basically have to interact since they’re on the same ship / mission because there has been so much bad blood between them when we all just want Emma to be happy.
Interesting. I actually feel that most of our regulars on the forums are CS’ers. Their thread is about ten times as busy as the SF thread. The livechats…they are a different matter and you and I have discussed that at length. On other social media, I think it’s split 50/50.
All of that being said I just took a look at the voting since that is what this thread was originally about and I’m sure most seeing this are skipping past the discussions at this point (not that I can blame them). I just wanted to remind people, I am NOT arguing that they were a legit couple on the show, I just don’t agree that only those 3 were options as it eliminates others that are either definitely TL or were at some point or another definitely a couple and am NOT saying that CS needs to be up there (yet) – just for anyone coming in late to the thread. The debate initially was only ever whether they *should* be included as an official TL couple / actual couple right now / supercouple of the show (meaning a front-running canon couple that is definitively TL) and I’m inclined to believe that this last category is what was used since Cinderella/Thomas and Philora weren’t used in it. If the list had been a full list of all couples ever shown to us in any capacity, then it would truly be a pick your favorite “legitimate” couple ever shown as a couple on the show poll and I wouldn’t take issue with it at all.
Hence why I sounded like a lunatic for the first few pages on this thread. I was like: PANIC! PANIC!
Closing remarks:
My motto has always been Ship and let Ship. Some ships make no sense to me, I’ll admit. I’m like, I don’t understand that one at all. But if it works for you, then by god you ship your little shipper heart out.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"@RumplesGirl wrote:
First off, how about a round of applause for Kat and her magical mice for writing the longest post in the history of these forums?? 😆 😉
For this very reason I will be happy to take a break! Especially knowing when we come back we’ll have actual things to work on together rather than debating the pros and cons of ships. 🙂 *Writes quickly then runs & hides*
@RumplesGirl wrote:
I’m not 100% on the HookedQueen ship (Hookriel man…I blame Phee for this). I think it’s an interesting exploration because I think unlike Cora and The Dark One (which is what Rumple totally was when they met) both of them aren’t as wicked as those two. AND for what it’s worth, Rumple changed when he fell in love with Cora. He started to become the man we see more clearly when he’s with Belle. Who is to say that love wouldn’t have changed Cora? Who is to say that love wouldn’t change Regina and Hook if they experienced it together? I think there are facets to Regina and Hook (and Emma and Neal) and that they are all very much alike which is why there is no clear ship for these four, why we keep having the debate. If it were cut and dry like Snowing or Rumbelle there would be no need for this, now would there?
I blame Phee for the Hookriel idea as well! I love Hook and I love CaptainSwan and we haven’t seen Ariel yet but I’m open to the idea. I like your idea RG that they would change each other in a vastly different way. I can’t see it quite yet, but if they force it on me I want it to make sense and while I’m not there yet, nothing says they *can’t* just that my perception right now is that they would be toxic together. (Honestly doesn’t help that it’s usually just shoved toward anybody who wants Neal or Emma with anyone else). Agreed that it’s not cut & dried.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
This is all very true and I think you’ll find that most of the “rational” SF’ers totally see all the feelings–whatever they may be–between Hook and Emma. Actually, over on our thread, most of us agree that Hook and Emma will have some sort of romantic interlude and that it will most likely happen right toward the end of the first half of S3, after fighting PP and saving Henry. They recognize themselves in the other, there is no denying that. It’s just a question–in my opinion–of is that enough? My best friend and I, for example, are soul mates. We recognize that we are very much alike, that we have a lot of the same traits and that there is a great deal of love between us. But there is nothing romantic or sexual. I can see CS going that way, brief romance or not. I think part of Emma will always wonder if it would have worked out with Neal. I think part of her will always want to know if she could have gotten Tallahassee with him if they tried. And until that is fully explored, whatever happened or didn’t happen with CS is going to be on the back burner.
Thank goodness for rational SFers. I was starting to wonder if I was hanging out in the wrong places and was being to hate seeing any mention of the ship to be honest. (I’m feeling a little better though, promise). I’ve seen some people say they feel like CS has to happen but I’m so sick of being a drawn conclusion that it will basically be a stepping stone. Frankly…as much as I want CS, I don’t want it to be a rebound or a stepping stone, and I don’t want to watch them fall in love in real time (well, present day but you know what I mean – seeing every important interaction), only to watch Hook get strung along because it’s “inevitable” that Emma will go back to Neal. And on top of that, we’d then have to watch Hook in real time go through another relationship and basically start over. I hated the way that was handled on Lost and am just now coming to grips with the backup ship over there. I don’t want to hate it here too. =/
I get the reference you’re making though for sure. I think Emma & Hook have a very strong bond and while I certainly think it will be romantic, I can see why others don’t see it as a foundation for anything other than friendship.
I’ll agree that Emma needs to figure out whatever it is with Neal before she can fully move forward with anyone (including him frankly). If that means trying for awhile with boundaries or something then so be it, but if they want me to love them, I need her to really make an effort to not just sweep everything under the rug because he’s alive.
That definitely includes Hook taking a backseat for awhile and I think he may be the one to broach that and just let her know he’s there but not push her as I said earlier. With how many complicated relationships there are between these 3 without bringing romance into it, they all need to take a step back regardless. Emma may need to at least try with Neal. Whether that works or not I don’t know, but she may need to try and I think Hook would understand that (and I wouldn’t mind seeing a little Jealous!Hook), as long as it’s not taken too far and is considerate of the situation as a whole. (I don’t see them jumping 100% in right off the bat anyways as they also have Henry to consider and not wanting to get not only theirs but his hopes up). I also don’t think they’d do much more than try to have dates and actually talk and that may be enough to know one way or the other, who knows.
Either way it would make for good drama (various characters having their input and watching poor Hook in the background *sniff* He’ll make me want to hug him a million times I’m sure. But it definitely needs to happen before anything would be legit for her with anyone else (or Neal for that matter). I don’t think we’d have them spending SO much time together while Neal is away still that they would fall completely in love and not at least question it when he shows up. Could they develop feelings they don’t admit and are then exponentially confused when he shows back up? Sure. I pretty much expect that. I don’t think it’s anymore clear-cut for Emma than I think it is in the fandom.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Without going into a lot of it, I recently rewatched PotC and saw a ton of SF parallels with Willabeth with Hook playing the role of Jack. We talk about parallels a lot in the fandom with out ships, it’s only natural. But looking for parallels is a little bit like cloud watching: you may see a man in a hat, and I may see a giraffe but at the end of the day that cloud is neither, it’s a cloud. The writers may draw distinct parallels that are intentional, but a lot of times I think the fans are looking for parallels and will find them even if they don’t exist at the hands of the authors.
One of the things I love about Hook is that he is a mixture of so many different characters in a lot of my favorite things. I know Colin himself said it was a little bit Dread Pirate Roberts (and I’ve been saying that from the beginning so that tweet made me so happy!) but I know some see him as one note / Inigo Montoya (I think at this point, he’s past that and has merged into being more of DPR instead). Same thing with PotC, originally I said a bit more like Jack and sometimes I see the young boy abandoned, grew up and became a pirate and eventually a captain who fell in love with an E. Swan(n) who he took tender care of with that perfect handwrap scene.
He’s definitely his own character as we don’t know anything of the Killian Jones version of Captain Hook (I’ve heard of James Hook and Davey Jones, but no Killian) and he’s a lovely tribute to a lot of piratey characters like DPR, Captain Jack, Will (who eventually became a Captain as well) etc etc. They said they wouldn’t use Jack without Johnny Depp but I’ve seen bits and pieces of a lot of different characters, intentional or not, that are thrown into his performance. Again, we all see what we see / what we want to see especially when we’ve been overthinking things and are having hiatus-fever!
I will agree with the cloud metaphor though! In fact that may be my new favorite way of explaining we all see different things and it’s ok because we’re never going to get it right 100% of the time anyway! I completely agree that while SOME things are put in specifically as a parallel, other things are merely similar or just happenstance because there’s only so many ways to say or do similar things. There’s no way any list of reasons to ship has every single thing be intentional on it. Looking back on however the ships work themselves out, we’ll convince ourselves of various things they probably never remotely intended.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Well that’s true but out of everyone on the JR, Regina is–to me–the most outcast. Snowing will never quite trust her, and Emma’s going to be keeping her eye on her. Hook may have opened up to Regina but he is closer to Emma right now, so that could be the reason. Again, cloud watching metaphor.
Regina is still a central figure as she is one of Henry’s mothers and I think she’ll be very easily persuaded by Rumple to go to extremes to get Henry back (not that Emma wouldn’t, but her and her parents methods are vastly different from people like Rumple & Regina).
I’ll agree that Hook is definitely closest to Emma right now (Regina kinda expected him to have died when she shoved him into Mal’s pit, and he didn’t really care much if she sacrificed herself or not). He tried to make Regina see reason because he just learned that lesson the hard way and she didn’t take the bait. He talks to a lot of people and he did share one completely Killian scene with her where he laid all that out and she still refused to listen. *sigh* Sometimes I want to shake her because 2 steps forward, 1 giant leap backward. Hopefully she learned something in the finale *fingers crossed* but I don’t anticipate them getting along for a bit unless he actually chooses to work with her over Emma (he could I suppose, if he has reason to want to get out of there realllly fast and doesn’t care about collateral damage but this is Hook we’re talking about: he’s been burned by Regina & Cora and never really wanted to team up with them in the first place. On top of that, this is the guy who kicked fishman into the sea so he wouldn’t suffocate on land. I don’t really think he’s going to go in all guns blazing / magic-wielding and ignore the wishes of Snowing & Emma when he knew they were planning on doing things the long hard stupid way to save Regina (which is all he knew was in store for him when he turned around to help).
I could see either being an outcast I suppose depending on the circumstances. I’m anxious to see if they break up into groups and how that works itself out cause some you just can’t trust and others you don’t want separated. Should make for good drama though (and I can’t wait to explore NL and see the interactions with these particular characters – so many good storyline options!)
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Gosh, someone remind me. When did that video come out? Cause I’m pretty sure Neal hadn’t been seen since Tallahassee yet. I think they were trying very hard to keep his story shut up because they didn’t want to reveal that you’d be seeing him again so soon and putting him in that video would have tipped off the audience and maybe ruined the surprise that he was more important that you thought (if you’re not you know…us).
I want to say that was over the first hiatus so yes, after Tallahassee but before Manhattan and the like. Again, I take everything with a grain of salt from the morons in the PR department. They very well could have gone with their own interpretation of what they saw in front of them / just liked the brief scene they used. I doubt anybody important actually has an input in those things whatsoever and you’re right, it didn’t imply that he was coming back and they didn’t have access to him coming in the first place so may not have known. I could see them thinking that (even though we know to expect such things – seriously I don’t even know if they watch the show sometimes!). Not sure I can see them actually thinking out not wanting to ruin a surprise about his return though since they basically gave it away in his promo (although not quite as badly as the Frankenstein one). I know some CSers take it as something to hold onto (and I think EVERYONE holds on to every little thing regardless of how trivial it is) but again, I really don’t trust them so think someone working there just happened to either like the scene, like CS, or looked at it the way some of us did and said Neal was the past and being paralleled to the present where we’re watching CS play out and expect them to be a couple down the line that fits in with alll these other couples that actually have been proven. I get why they wanted to include Emma, I’m just surprised that they did (and honestly, can somebody intelligent be in charge of promo stuff in the future? Please?). So honestly, who knows, I just know it happened.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
*laughs because I’ve has been privy to most of these really outlandish attacks and it’s really quite tragic what my fellow shipmates on different social media do*
Yes, yes you have. *hands over cookies* I have had so many meltdowns from absolutely idiotic comments that had nothing to do with shipping wars blow up in my face. I can’t count the number of times we’ve head-desked or wanted to throw something RG but thank you for being there!
There’s no need to look at somebody who ships something different and automatically assume that every aspect of the show must be skewed for them so never take anything they say at face value and assume they mean to input shipper stuff. It’s also not meant as an insult if we say something hasn’t been proven yet on the show, but saying that it hasn’t happened *yet* tends to make people tell me to get over my ship and that it has so been proven. (With how much celebrating SFers have done with the ILYs, I’m pretty sure somebody would have loved to be able to point out exactly WHERE Henry was proven to be the product of TL, am I right? Cause that would put a lot of silliness to rest and let us all try to come up with a backup plan.
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Absolutely. If CS is endgame and TL then they better make me understand it. Because right now I see the potential for a romance–albeit a brief one–for nothing more because I think the revelation that Neal is alive is going to change a lot of things for a lot of people.
Ditto in reverse. All I want is for the show to make me see it for SF. Right now I see a lot of baggage but I’m not 100% convinced, especially with another option in the picture that I think is a great one, that they’re meant to be. They were meant to be for a time, for something bigger as Neal pointed out in the bar, and that thing was Henry. I’m sure they will be in each others lives down the road and getting along (and they’ve shown they can do that which is a good starting point for *anything* but right now I still believe in CS.
I do agree that Neal being alive is going to change a lot of things for people and I’m curious as to just how that will affect everyone and what happens down the line.
Neal: And one more thing – if anything changes, and she does her job, this insanity ends, and she’s free…
August: I’ll send you a postcard.
Thanks! I knew you’d know where to look and I didn’t think he said anything to really explain the situation more in-depth. (I’m still waiting for the name can’t be said outloud payoff though, I want that so badly so make up for the typewriter scene!) Also – I stand by what I said earlier, I don’t think that Neal really expected Emma to know and/or try to find him. What was she going to do, follow a dove? Or did he expect August to give her a ride back to NY? The way they left things, it sounds like the ball was in his court. He may very well have wished that August would fill her in on some things, but he still started his relationship with Tamara immediately after August officially headed to SB so I’m inclined to think he wasn’t expecting Emma to try to find him – otherwise he’s worse than I thought and I was just starting to like him again. (Seriously if he expected her to show up in a few weeks/months, way to majorly sabotage it! Bad enough he didn’t go find her after the postcard but he got his wires crossed with August if he thought Emma was supposed to seek him out and on top of that, 2 minutes after hearing August say that he starts something with Tamara? And I thought Rumple had sabotage isssues!) So I go back to my original thinking in that Neal didn’t think Emma would forgive him and he chose not to pay attention to the post card. He may have thought about it / agonized over it for a bit, but I don’t think, based on what we know right now, that he really expected her to show up. If he did well…he would have been majorly surprised and would have had his fiancee right there and felt majorly stupid and guilty. Not that he didn’t this time around, but I realllly don’t think he expected to ever see her again, having made the choice to cut ties with FTL but be happy for her finding her parents etc.)
@RumplesGirl wrote:
And of course, conversely: Can I get on board QueenFire right now? Not remotely. Could it happen someday? Maybe. Will I like it more if I didn’t see people say, ‘if this happens then CS is free?” ABSOLUTELY.
Again, ditto in reverse. I have the same reaction to HookedQueen because I just don’t get it and I haven’t seen many attempts at logical arguments other than they’re both hot and it would pave the way for SF. I know the EvilRegals want Regina to find love and they need it to be someone who’s in the main cast so that they don’t get tossed to the wayside and I get that. I don’t see why it has to be Hook though. I’ve seen compelling *ideas* behind FQ but I head-desk when I see 99% of the HQ comments. I certainly don’t want him to take her as 2nd choice and I would think the Evil Regals would hate that as well frankly.
I agree that in order to make sure our main characters find love, they need it to be with a central figure so that they’re around and I do believe the love interests for the main characters should be important. (One of the reasons I’m waiting to see what they do with Ariel since we haven’t seen her on screen yet – if it’s just a mini-arc then I don’t want them writing her & Hook off into Mermaid Lagoon and never seeing them again. I don’t watch the show just for Hook and I loved Season 1 (where he was supposed to be *sigh*) but I do love the character and missed him when he was offscreen for ages (poor Colin and his broken leg).
So I get the argument and it’s one of the reasons I think it’s highly likely that between Regina, Neal, Emma, and Hook will be our final couples. Out of those I see arguments for 3 options but not all 4 *as of now.* Could they change my mind down the line? Absolutely. Am I timidly liking the idea of FQ based on various things that make sense to me? Yes. Would I ever bother wasting my time to actually think about a ship and then actually ship it if it’s entire purpose is to pave the way for the other ship I would much rather be spending my time on? Heck no. I do like the idea of FQ (waiting for more interaction), just like I liked the idea of SF (waiting for him to grow on me a bit more within the context of that relationship), and like the idea of Hookriel (waiting to see what the heck they do with Ariel but I agree Phee, the idea does have its appeal as long as it isn’t a 2nd choice or she’s been pining over him for 200 years but he wasn’t ready to move on and it’s all so depressing), and I love the idea of CS.
I don’t think any of us (and I would hope not since everyone who has been commenting seems very rational!) would really truly want to just pawn somebody off on someone else just to get them out of the way. Perhaps out there is somebody that can effectively argue HQ to me someday or perhaps I’ll find it on my own through the show but with everything we have to go on right now, that’s the only part of that “rhombus” (and I think Adam said he was only joking but goodness knows) that I can’t see remotely happening. To each their own and I must just look at clouds very very differently (actually I’m sure I do but occasionally I’m right ;).
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Interesting. I actually feel that most of our regulars on the forums are CS’ers. Their thread is about ten times as busy as the SF thread. The livechats…they are a different matter and you and I have discussed that at length. On other social media, I think it’s split 50/50.
The livechats are definitely a different thing as there are maybe 2 or 3 us of that I know of but most don’t ever say anything about it in there because they see me get jumped on. Can’t say I blame them when I respond with a “no, we haven’t seen that proven on the show YET but it hasn’t been ruled out either” and automatically yell “get over your ship” and then go on to state that something has been proven. Trust me, if people could prove it they would have already. Headcanon and canon-canon are entirely different things and it’s easy to get swept up in the idea of things. Sometimes we need each other, and people with opposing viewpoints, to bring us back down to Earth. Even before the shipping wars got heated up people seemed to hate me for saying nothing had been ruled out but I think that was mostly really hating various theories. The shipper wars have turned EVERYTHING into shipping even when it’s not. Very frustrating but I think only a couple CSers are east coast and/or say anything. I think Obisgirl is in there and I can’t remember if there are any others.
As to the being active on the forum thing – I do find that strange actually since most of the ones I know around here are SFers. I think part of it is there aren’t that many safe havens for us and it’s a good setup here. The thread may be long but it’s mostly the same group (though we add people occasionally which is always fun!). I remember there being a SF thread that was a decent length at one point after Tallahassee but I know some just boycotted shipper threads altogether because they got tired of the shipping wars and then a new one was recently started that’s the official SF one. I think the old one was their quote or something? “What I really want is you” and that was super popular til the winter hiatus and I think it died down for whatever reason.
Maybe the CSers are just very devoted to combing over everything to grab every straw we can? It’s fun to have a safe place to go and as we’ve discussed at length, it’s very very scary everywhere else. I recently joined tumblr and am learning but apparently CS has been deemed “the cancer of the fandom” and asked not to tag Emma or OUAT in any of their posts (people seriously, just block the things that are also tagged CS) – I avoid the Colin tag a lot because there’s a lot of HQ in it. I don’t go and write on their stuff and tell them how awful it is though. I stay inside my little bubble and try not to think about the fact we’re being banished left and right.
Other social media – it’s a mixed bag. For every person is vocal about something there’s lots of others that are quiet. I find the people who are angry about stuff speak up way more than the people that love it and to some casual viewers who may not be on social media and don’t rewatch the show a million times, they may only see one ship or another in the first place.
I’ve heard some casual ones that love SF and others who think CS is a given because of their chemistry so it’s just like it is everywhere else: to each their own.
I do find it odd the way the polls have gone and I’m honestly not sure who is voting their hands off (or even in the 1 vote polls) because I don’t see on what other universe that Dreamy/Nova after 1 episode cream SF in a poll, nor do I see Hook/Milah edging out CS. RumBelle winning most things makes TOTAL sense but those other two I just can’t explain other than hate-voting which is ridiculous.
I know the current thing is some poll that apparently had the options of Neal, Hook, and Other (which might as well say Regina because Graham is dead, August is back to being a kid, and Mad Swan is only real in real life) and Other has over 45%, Hook has 40% or so and Neal is at like…12%. That seems VERY skewed to me based on my experiences around here, but I’d rather stay here and deal with the occasional crazy people than be out in a perfect CS bubble and not understand if it doesn’t go my way. (Honestly I just want it all to make sense and not to waste our time or our hearts on things they have no intention of resolving eventually – even if it means both sides have to be explored to make it legit.)
I don’t want the whole show to revolve around it though. This isn’t Vampire Diaries (which I do love and think my ships are basically sorted over there thank goodness, because I can only take one shipping-war-fandom at a time. Sometimes on social media, it feels like everything OUAT is shipping-related. Sometimes I do have a question that isn’t remotely CS related and likewise I see some of you asking things about the BF or t-word issues. See, rational people! (Really annoyed I forgot about Jen’s livetweet earlier, I wanted to ask about Emma’s relationship with Anton and what she thought of that. To me he’s like Emma’s Grumpy: I love Snow & Grumpy’s relationship and want to see more of Emma & Anton – see, not a shipper question, just a friend one that doesn’t even relate to my favorite male character! I adore him and his show didn’t get picked up so there’s always a chance he’ll be hanging with Team7 again :))
@RumplesGirl wrote:
Hence why I sounded like a lunatic for the first few pages on this thread. I was like: PANIC! PANIC!
Yep and I really really appreciate you saying something! As much as it has helped me in derailing this ship and writing ridiculously long response (I’M SORRY – it’s a writer thing. :S I feel the need to fully explain myself when others are so easily able to boil it down to a small paragraph. I’ll be focusing on my novel/screenplay/whichever it ends up being in July though until in and around spoilers & we have a 2 week break coming up.
I can’t tell you how happy it made me to see a non-CSer point out stuff. I do think the poll was made with no ill-will and as I’ve said many times before, CS doesn’t remotely count in it right now. I just can’t justify ignoring all the other couples unless it’s a supercouple of Once thing and in that case as we’ve all stated, some of us have reasons to doubt their status right now, 100% proclaim them as TL just yet. I’m big on not ruling things out until I have to. But it meant a lot to see it come from someone else. I’m sure as forum moderator your alarm bells were ringing for sure! Not sure how much of a fuss I would have made as sometimes I write stuff and walk away and sometimes I argue it, but seeing something like that come from someone who DOES want SF to be on that list and not have anybody question its status, that made me happy. Personally I consider any couple that has been shown on the show at any time as a couple to be “legit” and then we have the list of proven TLs. They may very well belong on that list eventually, but I can’t in good conscience promote that they belong for sure right now. (I’m a very indecisive person!)
@RumplesGirl wrote:
My motto has always been Ship and let Ship. Some ships make no sense to me, I’ll admit. I’m like, I don’t understand that one at all. But if it works for you, then by god you ship your little shipper heart out.
Ditto 1 million %.
And with that I officially give up. Hiatus-fever is definitely getting the best of me and I don’t know what points I’ve argued into the ground or if I’ve agreed with the same thing a million times at this point.
Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.
I may or may not sneak one more in depth post in before the forum goes into lockdown, but just had to respond to this…
@MysteryKat25 wrote:@RumplesGirl wrote:
(Hookriel man…I blame Phee for this).
I blame Phee for the Hookriel idea as well!
BWHAHAHAAAA. 😈 😉 I blame tumblr, because when I was first entertaining the idea and ended up scrolling through the Hookriel stuff on tumblr, that was my breaking point. If there was already fanfic for it, that was good enough for me to officially indulge. 😆 #crackshipenablersFTW
Mysterykat—here is more cheese for the magical exhausted mice and *cookies* for everyone else.
Seaweed biscuits for those of us on Hookriel crackship!
I wrote most of this in response to 2 posts back of Mysterykat, and then just edited in stuff off the last. I agree most of this was talked over quite a bit.
I also feel a bit “fried” literally typing on a laptop here….getting warm….but since I’ve been working on this over the course of the last day will post anyway rather than throw all the work of my magical mice away—there’s a long hiatus to go–so maybe someone will enjoy reading some more 😆 😮 😯 😆@Phee wrote:
If she’s the one he primarily looks at and speaks to, IMO that’s down to the fact that she’s the only one who is remotely interested in talking to or listening to him, so naturally, she’s the one he has to address if he wants to be heard at all by the group as a whole.
A very good point! On the boat, I do think Hook will naturally seek out Emma as the least hostile source of conversation. Everyone else is giving him the “I’m watching you because I don’t trust you” stare. Regina looks at people like that on principle anyway, and he did just walk away while she was tortured. The Charmings have not yet seen him really prove himself, and they probably figure they didn’t shoot him in the face, so that pays off his returning with the bean.
“Phee” wrote:However, we’ve already seen that Henry’s greatest wish is for his parents to be back together, so if Hook is standing in the way of that, I don’t see Henry wanting to be friends with him.I’m not sure about that—I think Henry likes the idea of them reuniting, but I think his greatest wish would be everyone happy, so if Emma really bonded with Hook, and Hook played a big role rescuing him, I guess I could see Henry accepting it, if Nealfire could get over it too—but its a mess for sure.
Maybe it’s just because I’d quite like to be on the receiving end, but I’ve got nothing against some Hook innuendos. 😉 (I know many people think it’s gross, but I say bring it.)
Lol. Emma herself rolled her eyes so she did not find it funny or attractive but it did not phase her as she is tough. She was a bailbondsperson in Boston, not a delicate flower of victorian womanhood.
So, this is his new goal, this is his new “fight”, to prove Bae’s statement wrong, to prove to himself and everyone else that he can be unselfish.
Emma is the savior, and that responsibility is going to weigh on her mind. These two could have similar trajectories of “what about my happy ending—when do I get what I want”. Probably they get it, when they realize their own happiness depends on that of others too. That’s what everyone is realizing—how they are all connected.
I’ve seen posts from yourself in particular saying how you don’t really see that they’ve established a strong basis for SF in present day/future. So even if the long posts have each taken me several hours to read/reply to each time, I figured it was worthwhile putting this side of the argument out there, given that it’s not a thread specific to one ship, and the discussion has been thoughtful and civil on both sides. 🙂
^This times however many pages we’ve added to the thread!
Now I’m going to add a bit directly to that post of MysteryKat again:
I’ve mostly looked at it from Emma’s perspective recently & I think that’s where a lot of my anger with him comes from but I freely admit that for her (and me) that that may subside with time and more info – just as I hope people start seeing more in Hook given the same.
I give Hook loads of credit and the benefit of the doubt even if I don’t see everything as strongly as you do. This is why I have said on the CS thread that the logic of being anti-SF is not good for CS either—but it works the other way around too. Emma has to forgive things to be with either. Not the same kinds of things, but if she is not the kind of woman to be able to put herself in someone else’s shoes and see what isn’t obvious from only her own point of view, then her heart won’t go to either of them. If she doesn’t have thick skin and ignore the occasional immature comment, she won’t like Hook’s snark or Neal’s sass. They all know pain, regret, and being alone and want family. In some ways, its like 2 sides of the same coin. It’s not like she’s choosing between Charming on one hand and Rumpel on the other (and even those two have more in common than they’d like to admit, and both are romantic heroes even if it started off looking like hero and villain).
I hope I go back to being torn just as much as I think Emma will be watching it all again if it ever hits Netflix (hiatus is bad enough, hurry up!).
You don’t need to be torn! You can see the logic and still say, this is NOT my cup of tea. Our perspectives and Emma’s are different, and are allowed to be different. How often do we see things make sense to Snow or Regina and over on the forums we are smacking our heads over it? Whatever the writers do, it fits within the story, and we try to make sense of it for the characters, even if it never makes sense emotionally to us, or would be what we would do, or how we would feel. I keep seeing people who say they just relate so much to Emma, when what they relate to is THEIR interpretation of Emma, so of course it relates to them! We can try to take off shipping goggles, but we can’t take off the filters that make us predisposed to like one sort of thing over another.
Can’t wait to see how it all unfolds and at least we can all agree that we want Emma to be happy, no matter what she chooses. .
Yes, shipping Emma and Happiness is really the best thing—or rather everyone and happiness. I am definitely not closed to CS. I agree there are many things the writers have done to put Hook interacting 1 on 1 with Emma, so again, not all spec ships are equally speculative, and SF is spec too. I do see Hook has grown, and will continue to grow and perhaps that is what the writers intended to do is pair him with Emma, or maybe it is something they will shift the plot around to accommodate.
Regarding Hook, you say:
@MysteryKat25 wrote:she wanted to open up to him before and certainly let him in faster than we’ve seen with anybody else post-Neal.
Hook has a knack for pushing buttons with people and he did get her to admit things about herself, but I don’t think she “let him in”. She didn’t trust him at the end of Tallahassee, or at the start of the finale.
Contrast that to how Emma and Anton (Tiny) interact. At first, you think she’s just got this wary bargain with Anton, yet they are alike in a lot of ways. They’ve both experienced having no one, having been betrayed, and carrying a reminder of it. Tiny almost crushed Emma to death, rampaged through her town to kill her dad who he thought was James (sure she heard about it though she did not witness). She forgives and hugs the guy when she sees him! I would too, maybe I’m carrying FEELS from LOST, but there is something so sweet and huggable about Tiny. (Not enough to sail a TinySwan ship but I love that there’s a non-romantic, non family friendship for Emma). She let Tiny in, and since he wouldn’t have rampaged if Emma vouched for Snowing, I though it was apparently mutual trust. So compared to THAT, I don’t think she let in Hook. He got under her skin, sure, by a few comments that hit close to home, but I don’t think he broke through her walls. The good thing though is, clearly, Emma believes in second or third chances, and of course, understanding can grow with more interaction.
I don’t expect Neal to have a good reaction to it at all because he blames Hook for his family falling apart.
I fear the story would be written for the angst there as well. That is why I felt better about CS when Neal was still officially with Tamara. He would have been on the moral “low ground” to say anything in such a situation! Not that he gets the high ground in the present situation—he and Emma were not married (and even if they had been, of course, we all know how little that has mattered historically to Hook anyway. )
Given his strong reaction to Rumple though I wonder what’s going through his head *now* as he was upset with Hook for wanting to kill him and then a couple hundred years later is running from him.
Neal was still upset that Hook tried to kill his father in present day. He said as much, that Rumpel is still his blood. That’s why Neal tied up Hook in the closet, and stole the ship and sailed back without Hook. He wasn’t like “hey Hook, good to see you man, you did me a solid, killing my old man. I’ll call my girl T, and you, Emma, me and Henry can have the world’s most awkward double date.” (Sorry, that thought just cracked me up so much even though I KNOW no one even came close to thinking that. I should leave that stuff to Price of Magic’s commentary thread.)
At this very moment I don’t see how either guy could easily be just friends with Emma to be honest.
Age old question—can two people who are attracted to each other ever really be friends? I see what you’re saying that if they are paired off with other characters, it at least would imply the attraction was eclipsed by new love.
On the flip side Hook & Emma have this connection and when she’s in a room she is literally all he looks at.
I agree he does address himself to her at the dock and there is camera work flitting between these two. Though in the scene at the loft the 3 ladies are in a row, and he does look at Regina, and Charming, but he is looking at Emma because she is speaking to him a lot (and I totally agree with Phee—Emma is the one who listens to him). There is a cut of her reaction and then his to Regina’s words to Henry. Hook is also looking at Regina and Rumpel on the boat—when they surround the globe, he isn’t turned around staring at Emma. So I did not see it as he is besotted with her and only has eyes for her. Some of the focus too comes from her being the heroine, the savior, and the same thing sort of happens in her scenes with Rumpel. Then again, she has never fallen into Rumpel’s arms or had him make “comments” or say “hi beautiful.” So I do see Hook has a pattern of showing he finds Emma attractive that puts this camera work in a different context.
So if he does have to go find someone else, I hope it’s a new someone because I don’t buy that he’d go for Regina – they’d be toxic and he has had no regard for her safety whatsoever.
He and she have a history of betrayal, but his record with Emma’s safety is mixed too. He didn’t stay to watch Regina being tortured, and he did not look gleeful about her predicament. He understands her pretty well—he guessed how she would want the cuff. [Edit—not throwing HQ at you, but as you say it seems just “pair the spare” to you this is how I look at it, but I much more prefer Hookriel. Fan interest in both started before SF).
Regina at least is also played by a lead actress and gets loads of development and screen time—and she is changing, and more than other characters, could truly understand without judging what he has done. At first I thought it would just be like that Lada Gaga song, Bad Romance, a dark evil, twisted thing but they are both moving past only loving revenge. She also has walls up (but they are like siege walls topped with electrocuted fences and barbed wire compared to Emma’s walls) and does not trust easily. While I don’t think right now they’d bring out the best in each other and have tried to kill each other, I still see more there than between Neal and Regina. I would worry that Neal also isn’t sure enough of himself to kind of play the “Belle” role and redeem Regina (he did get played by Tamara). Regina would need someone who could stand up to her so she wouldn’t boss them around. He might be able to do that, as there are a good many things possible in the future, though I feel it is a stretch from what we have seen. Neal is very wounded, rough around the edges from living on the streets, so doesn’t much remind me of Daniel, who seemed more gentlemanly and noble (for a “peasant”).I [edit to incorporate 2nd post thoughts– I do not think it is compelling for these two to get together because I think it would be more angst with Emma. The CS would have to be a done deal, with Neal over it and Regina quite redeemed before I can picture it starting.]
I also really really want both guys to find love and they obviously can’t both find Emma so I am thinking ahead and trying to find things that actually make sense but need more interaction first to form any real attachment to any of it.
Given that Neal still loves Emma, and Hook, whether drawn or not, does not love her yet, I feel I’d prefer the storyline where Hook is the one who loves someone besides Emma, if we can put aside the question of which character could be written to grow to match her best. Long as we do not know the direction of the story, that is the way I would prefer it written at this time, even though I agree Neal ought to be mentally prepared to co-parent. Cue awkward bagel breakfast part II, on the Jolly Roger.
Rumple’s abandonment of Neal did have a far greater afffect than Milah running off with a pirate. However, I believe those issues will come to the surface when Neal sees Hook again, especially if Emma tells him to play nice because even if she’s NOT choosing to be with Hook, she’s still choosing to defend him and let him be a part of her / their lives and that will probably feel like a slap in the face to Neal.
This is a potential problem but then again—if he sees Rumpel and Hook getting along too it could just be more complicated than just about the romances.
(Honestly there was never any doubt in my mind after Tallahassee because of how he spoke of the lost boys but I know for some it took a long time to get to that point and they were pleasantly surprised with how cute the Hook teaching Bae to drive the ship scene was).
Those creepy lost boys that we have now met? Yes, that line seemed a lot different in meaning before I saw those guys tramping on his ship to chase down a boy for Peter Pan versus the cute little tykes in the animated movie. Speaking of less cute, that’s also how I felt when watching Hook and Bae in the episode rather than the promo pics. The undercurrent that Hook wasn’t being honest with Bae that he knew who he was ruined it for me. I was like, this isn’t going to end well. Then it didn’t.
So hopefully even if he’s just hovering in Emma’s circle we’ll at least get to see him become friends with Henry and I think Henry would like being friends with a pirate.
Henry seemed to get a kick out of the JR, though I do think if Neal is very anti-pirate it might rub off on Henry. I could see Henry being the one to help reconcile Neal and Hook though. Henry doesn’t want people to fight each other. How I feel about the forums—discuss and explain yes, but not attack for “daring” to have one opinion or another.
On the flip side, so far, Hook is all about Emma. Stupid innuendos aside, the only person he drops his facade for and has real conversations with is her.
Hook may become all about Emma, but he has not been all about her this season. Hook says to Emma in the hospital that he doesn’t know where Cora is, and she has her own agenda. I think he could have been more helpful there, and apparently so did Emma since she kind of tortured him by pushing on his cracked ribs. I’m sure Hook felt cautious as usual but to say he was “all about” Emma doesn’t reflect his motivations in that scene and many others. Emma does read him, and he her, and as Phee said—Emma is the one who gives the second chances, so Hook does see her as different than other of his adversaries, but I don’t think it is love yet.
In fact in that diner scene, I think HE had all kinds of emotions going on in his head just like every time that Neal had to make a tough choice.
Of course, characters are complex, and I totally agree that Hook was conflicted. I’m reminded of the scene from Avengers where Nick Fury says something like “I realize the council has made a decision, but seeing as it is a stupid (edited for awesome as always samuel jackson delivered obscenity) decision, I’m going to ignore it”. That probably was what was running through Hook’s mind—on the face of it, the decision sounded stupid.
When it’s something THAT important, she would have checked but she TRUSTED him. She was gutted when she opened it and it was empty.
Charming had it right before, so Hook had it for such a quick second. None of them bothered to check. They all trusted. Is she gutted that he of all people betrayed her? Maybe, but I saw it more as “oh snap we’re all dead, how could I have been so stupid, Hook touched the pouch! I totally called he’d do that.” Back in her apartment, one of the first things she said was that he’d betray them, after he got the beans, and then Charming said he’d shoot Hook in the face if they tried anything.
She questioned it when he came back and his explanation was directed at her. As I said previously the bean is their symbol (whether it’s friendship or more) and he handed that back to her. She didn’t have to hand it to him to throw into the water. She could have thought “Neverland” to herself and tossed it.
I see what you mean in terms of the writers choosing to show them exchange an object. What Phee said—did she know what to do with it?
Love it or hate it they do have something and it clearly affects her / gets to her just as much as her jealousy was coming out with the Neal/Tamara situation.
Yes, the finale did provide some development. I’m not sure he’s affecting her because its HIM so much as what it is he is doing that everyone reacts to and is affected to some degree—ie tricking them then offering to help unexpectedly. Though you do have a point that she did reveal the real reason for the council decision was Henry’s dad’s “death”, which she did not tell anyone else—but it was the first thing he heard when he comes into the room in the Loft at the start. Henry is saying he lost his Dad, then says something about working together, and in walks Hook. The door was wide open to the stairs. Hook walks in and indicates he heard what Henry’s last line was—though he is not in the room until the last part. So it is possible he heard that Henry just lost his dad, and was wondering about it.
He may have wondered why she was in NY when he stabbed Rumpel. How did he know where to go anyway? Did he overhear something about Neal, because he added up Neal = Baelfire fast. Emma did not tell him.They made a point of showing us her face when Hook came back. He’s given her hope and that’s something she hasn’t had a lot of in a long time.
I would feel it meant more to her if he hadn’t stolen the hope and bean away in the first place. She was not warmly welcoming him back to the dock. It could be they showed her face because she was the one that tried to convince him, as she was the one connected to Neal. It’s that duality thing. She had huge hope right after they all woke up and realized in the mine “Hey, we lived!”. Then they lost it with Henry being kidnapped. She had hope when they had the crop ready to go home, yet also fear. She had hope when Regina took down the barrier at the well and they all warily dusted themselves off for a dinner at Granny’s. She’s had hope other times as well. It was a big moment of hope all the same, I do see that and think it huge for Hook, and yes, a big CS moment.
I’m not sure where Hook would fit in because you don’t just wake up and stop being attracted to someone you have a deep connection with (another reason that if SF happens, Emma will have to deal with her connection to Hook because Neal won’t like it but I don’t see her backing down on it, even if it’s as just friends).
I don’t think they have a deep connection—I absolutely think they could have, through more positive shared experiences, but up to this point in the story—it’s been 2 steps forward 3 steps back, 1 step forward, and back where they started. I agree Emma won’t allow Neal’s issues to force her to give up on someone she trusts and likes just because he doesn’t trust or like them. Yet you can wake up eventually and stop being attracted if you realize the feeling isn’t mutual and would never be. That works both ways of course, it could apply to Neal as well as Hook.
I really agree with what RumplesGirl wrote:
I think he is drawn to her because they do have a lot in common but also from a practical standpoint: she is only person he can talk to without getting hit.
Not always even that, as she pushed his cracked ribs! (That hurts.) In fact, if I could do a fan video it would be funny to do that song “Love Hurts” by Nazareth with all the times these two have punched, shoved, hit, or otherwise caused each other pain. They wouldn’t be the first epic TV couple to start off being physically violent in some ways with each other and won’t be the last, but it doesn’t read romance to everyone, nor do writers always intend such things to be taken as romance.
Back to MysterKat’s thoughts:
I’m definitely expecting a confrontation between Neal & Hook regardless, and I hope it doesn’t start out as a “you destroyed my family once I won’t let you take Emma” kind of thing because in this case Neal is in the wrong. Tamara tried to kill everyone and took Henry and Hook is doing everything he can, including getting along with his worst enemy, to save him. Emma has every right to defend that and I fully expect her to.
Hook is far more to blame for what GOAT tried to do than is Neal, though neither really knew GOATs goals, and neither did GOAT. I notice you keep saying Tamara instead of Greg and Tamara as if she acted alone in kidnapping Henry. Hook made a deal to help them and got them the failsafe (though he didn’t know what it was or know they’d be after Henry). Neal on the other hand never knew about their plans in the least. He was duped by Tamara, so to the extent he would be in the wrong, it is not because of his past connection to Tamara.
I agree he ought to appreciate the change in Hook in rescuing Henry—but emotionally, finding out Emma and Hook paired off could be a large enough “kick in the guts” as Phee said that he’s too upset to really appreciate that fact. I don’t see Hook being noble and steping aside, but I’m not sure Neal would do that either—ultimately, it still is up to Emma. Some might love the train wreck that this scenario would be—but I cringe. All the more reason it is probably exactly what the writers might do!
I just hope that doesn’t only hinge on Hook letting Neal have Emma. I would hate to see that as one of the things I love about Hook IS his quote of “A man unwilling to fight for what he wants deserves what he gets” and that would greatly undermine that for me, especially if there’s a lot of build up for him obviously caring for Emma.
“Letting” sounds like Emma has no choice in it—it’s not up to either guy who she wants—what is up to them is who they want. Hook can fight til he’s blue in the teeth, but if Emma doesn’t want him, then she doesn’t. Same for Neal. You don’t win someone’s heart by fighting those who love them, you do it by loving and fighting FOR the person you love.
However, the bean has always been the symbol of the CS relationship (whatever it is, romantic, friendship, literally whatever, that has been their symbol).
Yes, I can see that.
Hook gets very little from turning around to help a bunch of people that hate him to make a dead guy happy. EMMA is the one who has reached an arm out to him and offered him a chance to be a part of something.
I agree that had impact on Hook. I’m not sure he gets so little out of honoring a dead guy if it is something that has haunted him for centuries, so I see both interpretations as valid (that Hook wants a future with Emma versus regretting the mistakes in his past with Bae and Milah).
In reference to Neal,
I just felt like he was still hurt by the situation as a whole that Emma was around to see that. It’s one thing to hear about it afterwards and it’s hard enough then because you don’t want to picture him with someone else or being hurt by it (in any way) and the coming back, but to see it play out changes the dynamics of it.
I’m not sure it changes it in a way that lessens what they felt for each other, as it was heavily hinted both were suppressing their real feelings and suspected it. I don’t think Emma was clueless that he was still attracted to her (Emma)—she saw the dreamcatcher, he asked about the necklace, it’s just neither felt free to express anything of what they really felt underneath the guilt and hurt until Tamara was out of the picture, and some of Emma’s anger was reduced by his apology and explanation. She says in a roundabout way it killed her to see him finding Tallahassee with someone else, and yes, there is that pain, but finding out it wasn’t real probably took a lot of the sting of it out. One way to be sure he’s not going back to the other lady is her saying it was a con and shooting him.
On one hand I think she’ll let it go because she always believed in them and was proven right because he finally admitted it. On the other hand she’s watched him interact with this woman that she never trusted (and not only because she was jealous) and she’s seen him essentially throw fits defending how much he needed Tamara.
It was one scene where he said he needed Tamara, and Emma was overeacting first. The guy almost lost his father. This was his fiance, that knew something about the situation since he had to borrow the car. Yes, SB is a place with special issues, but even Emma said Neal should tell Tamara all the truth. At that point, no one knew Tamara was evil, regardless of what we learned in hindsight—and the audience knew it long before Neal or even Emma suspected anything.
So it’s not necessarily going to be the fact that he moved on with someone else but still had feelings for Emma and it will be easily swept aside because she wants to believe it, but more that she will be battling with herself because of what she has seen and heard too. She did call him out on not believing in her lying ability and now I think her instincts are in check because she has confirmation that they were right (and they usually are).
Those instincts of hers are constantly suspect just like BF. Cora lied to her when disguised as Lancelot. Hook lied to her about Cora, and though it wasn’t a verbal lie—it was sort of one with the bean pouch switcheroo. So I think Emma is aware that lie detection/trust is complicated, and I doubt she is going to bring any of that up when she reunites with Neal. Not unless he is written as constantly doubting her instincts (which other than Tamara, I don’t think he was shown as doing).
It’ll just *hurt* her more because he chose not to believe in her as much overall, and on top of that she was forced to watch as he brought Tamara to SB, and to watch as he defended her time and time again, and to watch him be broken up with and told it was all a lie and be hurt by that (even if it is just the situation).
He didn’t choose not to believe IN her—he chose not to believe some things she was saying without proof or rational explanation. Things she didn’t even want to bring up to him without having the proof—but he came back to his room early and saw through the little rouse with the door stumble. He told her he knows she will always find what she is looking for in the scene in the loft. He was willing to believe there could be proof of Tamara’s evilness. He went all the way to the beach with her. He took her advice and told Tamara everything about the magic.
Here is my problem with your view on this—there’s a circularity to love. Whichever guy she picks, she has to forgive stuff to love them, or perhaps because she loves, she forgives.
He wasn’t worried about protecting the town, he was focused on bonding with Henry and wanted to stay for his son (admirable) and that would have been a great time to end things with Tamara because he just found out about his son and wasn’t committed to staying in NY etc etc, but he chose to bring her to him and TOLD EMMA that he needed her here. He knew that that would mean having a relationship with Tamara IN FRONT OF EMMA and he chose that. Against his deepest wishes sure, but he still chose it and she had to watch their relationship unfold, all the while being untrusted.
Why should he have been worried about the town on top of everything else he had going on? He trusted Tamara, and we only found out later that she was the wrong person to trust. So yes, Neal did say he needed Tamara, and yes, in front of Emma, but really, his purpose was not to rub in that he had moved on but he was going through a huge crisis. He needed someone on his side to support him, being back in a place of magic with his father nearby and realizing he has a son—and perhaps also struggling with his feelings for Emma conflicting with guilt that he has committed to Tamara. That is face to face news to borrow a phrase from How I Met You Mother. He apologized to Emma saying he hadn’t thought it through and Emma’s walls go right up and she says the bit about not apologizing to her, but to be truthful with Tamara. Far from not trusting Emma, Neal takes her advice about that.
Emma has spent a good portion of her life hurt by Neal though and I’m not willing to say anything 100% as to whether forgiving = starting over in a romantic way. It might, it might not.
There is the possibility of course, that she will forgive but fall out of love. Sounds less in keeping with the hopeful, fairytale nature of the show to me as a resolution. If Neal is depicted as constantly doubting Emma, then he would be the wrong guy. I just didn’t see that in their interactions. He believed in her in the past and in the present quite a bit even if he did not believe her about Tamara.
Emma’s story is very much still in the middle and we haven’t seen any proof yet.
We haven’t seen proof of “curse breaking true love”–but we have seen love survive despite a gap of 12 years, apparent betrayal, another relationship and that is pretty remarkable. We have seen they do still trust each other, even if there was the obvious conflict about Tamara.
Neither has been under a sleeping curse, we don’t know if Henry is the product of TL because we don’t know why specifically he was the kid in the drawing or what his connection to PP is, we haven’t seen somebody try to take his heart (and I would really rather they didn’t, poor kid has been through enough) etc. We just don’t yet know FOR CERTAIN one way or the other.
Quite honestly, it doesn’t matter what proof is in the show, there will always be fans who doubt how the story “should” go—there’s still pages up for Harry and Hermione in “Harry Potter”. A curse-breaking scene would be awesome, but it wouldn’t “prove” anything to some. And on some level—should it? Shipping is about fan imagination and desire, not proving some analysis of the story (despite how many magic mice die in pursuit of that !). So even though I spend all this time explaining SF, and where I don’t see as much present (as opposed to potential) as you see in CS—I believe absolutely in your right to like what you like and want to root and root hard for it. The end of the story isn’t there, and what I might want it to be is by no means how it “should” be—and we all have seen how accurate most of our theories are! There are huge puzzle pieces missing.
Her life has been manipulated and controlled enough and sometimes the heart wants what the heart wants, without rhyme or reason.
Yes, though again, I am not seeing that Emma wants Hook right now. They haven’t even been good friends so before imagining this heartbreak for Neal, given that I think Neal and Emma could work out what they need, that is why I lean SF. For the fans though, I see it would already be disappointing given how much people have invested in both ships.
I see both sides and yes it would be an epic story to have them overcome all of these obstacles like every other couple has. I just see the same potential in CS.
Yes, there is potential for CS and the writers are very careful as well with how they answer questions to keep that hope alive, so hopefully next season will make things clearer, but this may be a series long thing.
Now on to Mysterkat’s next post….
Yes, Tallahasee set up chemistry, but my point is that the ending of that episode sort of ended whatever potential may have been there—for now. I agree it could start up again, just like Neal and Emma—so once again, what works logically for SF, is true for CS too. You could say, Neal and Emma had a relationship, and Emma and Hook had a date. The depth of the relationships were different, even if it was a really, really good date until she choked at the end. What followed up after that date was not so good at all—no real increase in the closeness between the two.
honestly regardless of the reason: he came back and that’s what she needed, whether he’s a friend or more, she needed someone to do something that she believed that they would).
Tiny did what he said he would—he let Hook go. He’s the one that grew those beans you keep talking about. How does Tiny figure into all this? I do like that he’s Emma’s “Grumpy” so it could be he and Hook actually have a friendship, and he gave that dried bean to Hook—but it’s fun headcannon until we know. I just think Hook isn’t the only one who’s been “there” for Emma. Mulan also would have followed through on what Emma asked, but more than being a good soldier, she was reluctant to leave the fight at the portal until Snow told her she could go. It’s her trait to be loyal and a good soldier—so not specific to Emma, but again, it’s not like Emma is Hook, who has only known betrayal and mistrust. Hook needs Emma far more than Emma (right now) needs Hook.
When they showed reaction shots on the dock right before everyone got on the ship, they made a point of showing Snowing, Rumbelle, & Hook/Emma. That’s 2 canon couples and then one potential one. They didn’t include Regina standing with anyone as a couple.
This is true—I think these non-dialog, non-plot clues for CS, are easy to miss, and harder to tell as its quick to check a transcript but to get to a specific scene and rewatch can take time. Yet TV is a visual medium, so these things ARE important—how they frame, who looks at who and all that. So I do agree there is movement for CS in the finale, and a moment in Tallahassee—it’s just most of the season it took a backwards direction.
I’m not sure I feel comfortable saying that Bae was ever his son.
The Regina/Owen parallel there is spot on—no, they were never day-to-day caregiver and child. Yet lots of people said how icky it would be if they pair Owen and Regina. He does not owe Neal the same things he would a son, nor do I think Neal expects it. Still, to ignore the connection and emotions there seems off to me a little. As I said somewhere, sometimes it happens anyway—like in the movie Clueless (where Cher ends up with her ex-step-brother Josh, a movie based on Austen's novel, Emma). I think it is a coincidence but who knows, maybe it was an influence on the writers.
That whole scene where he was “working with” GOAT reminded me more of his self-preservation mode and when asked if he was in his “absolutely” should have been sending off MAJOR red flags to GOAT because it was not remotely convincing.
His “self-preservation” often involves danger to others, even if he does minimize it unlike Cora. Tamara totally gave Greg a look when Hook says this by the way, a look that to me read “Yeah, I don’t buy that, but we know exactly what you are going to go do, so let’s go through this charade.” He was going to work with them though, until HE had to die too. We’ll never know—if GOAT had told Hook that he could survive as long as he’s using the last bean to return to FTL first—well the writers didn’t choose to do it that way. So we don’t know if it was all the innocent lives that bothered him, or doubt that they were right about the Dark One dying too, or what. What we know is at the end, Hook did choose to come help, so once again, yes, that is a huge bit of good, then his offering to help find Henry is big too.
In-law stuff
All moot points, as you’re right, Neal and Emma weren’t married, nor Hook and Milah, and regardless, pirates don’t seem to care about it. What is marriage but a social contract anyway? On some level, you can make personal commitments, and that is what Hook and Milah had—and I daresay, so did Neal and Emma as they “promised to take care of each other.” Yes, before you can point it out, he did break that promise—but he broke it to keep it in a weird way. Milah of course died. So I don’t know if technicalities determine anything but clearly there are some odd emotional connections here all the same.
seriously the hatred around here constantly trying to get rid of Hook and/or Belle is ridiculous!)
Some posters just love Snow so much they become Grumpy. It’s not all tied to shipping either.
If anybody is capable of deep love, it’s Hook
Yes, he is capable of it—but people can love deeply and still be selfish outside of that love. I do think Hook is a GREAT character, and am not hating him in the least, nor want him gone or paired off with someone convenient (though my headcannon Ariel is every bit as awesome as Emma…so if he is not with Emma, I have to agree Regina gives me pause…and might be easier with a fresh character if it is not Emma, the same for Neal. I love the pirate/mermaid thing so can’t quite get Ariel with Neal—unless they reveal he is more piratey than we thought. I guess Wendy might still be out there somewhere for Neal).
if anyone is delusional with regards to the show, it’s the people running the promo department. Hopefully we can all agree about that at least!
Did you see the Men of Storybrooke one—lol they have that line about a date from August…the guy who is now a kid. Sigh.
One of my biggest gripes is that I like Emma as a character so much for who she is today and nothing I have seen *so far* suggests to me that she would be staying true to her character if she goes back to Neal *right now*
I think there are hints that some of Emma’s tricks and toughness she learned from Neal—and as Phee said, though not his intent, the pain he caused her is kind of the reason she’s so steel balllzy. Yet she was pretty brave back in the day too—so I don’t think I agree that she is “reverting” in a bad way to be with him. You have to remember, how she was with Neal is not the same as she was a decade after he left her and she was isolating herself. When she was with him, she had hope and love. So I think this is something you are missing—because the person MM saw, was the person Emma became after Neal left.
Yes she was distracted emotionally and it takes her awhile to jump to that conclusion, but she usually manages to if it’s truly the last second and instead she let him go
He lets go of her. She did not want him to, but it is a good point—she just forgets she has magic. Watch the portal scene—its hard to see, but his grip opens first I thought. Such a parallel to his situation with Rumpel.
I would like to argue the point about what Neal may or may not have known/been expecting. The impression I’ve gotten from the 2 times we’ve seen Neal & August interact is that when the curse is broken, August will let Neal know (which he did, including after a reminder immediately before heading to SB) but nowhere did I get the impression that August was going to tell Emma everything and that SHE would go after HIM. Now, I get why that’s a fun headcanon and I’m not ruling it out. I’m just saying that I personally never got the impression that just because the curse was broken that she would know absolutely everything. I don’t recall August promising him that.
Nothing gives us the impression that Neal had that expectation –but it does seem odd to think August would hide from Emma the fact that he helped break up her relationship years earlier. Unless there’s a scene where Neal and August discuss that Neal has to be the one to tell her. It’s just puzzling me is all. Why only a postcard? What August does do is PROMISE to be “there” for Emma to Neal. Dialog in Tallahassee.
I see why Neal may think that, in which case he should have waited a tiny bit longer after the curse broke before starting something with someone else if he was waiting to see (August went to see him right before he went to SB and Tamara “bumped into” him immediately after, so…if he was waiting/hoping to see what her reaction was, he failed miserably at doing that since he started something with Tamara before August even got to SB in the first place, much less may or may not have said anything to Neal.
Bumping into her on the street was not “starting” something with her. He was just being nice to someone he thought he had injured—Tamara then bootstrapped that into what she wanted, and we don’t know how/when/why that came about. It could be as Phee argued, he was emotional at his weakest point and he thought it was fate. It could be like I’m headcannoning that he was all innocent, worrying and waiting for the sign, and it came, and weeks went by, and he gave in with Tamara and it escalated fast. T-word issues, man, T-word. How long was Emma in FTL? Given Neal was so sure Emma wouldn’t forgive him, I don’t think he’d have to wait years to figure it out she wasn’t going to come.
For the record—no, August does not promise to do more than a postcard, and Neal does not ask him to do more. I don’t have the dialog from Selfless Brave and True, but its pretty brief too. All I am saying is, logically, why would you think August wouldn’t say anything? Hindsight he’s all ashamed and wooden, but Neal had no reason to know that. So what was reasonable for him to think? That Emma would have no idea or that she and August might have talked? He thought August would give her the money, the car and be there for her—turns out August didn’t do anything Neal expected (and Neal didn’t know otherwise until he met Emma). So for me, it is easy to imagine that there was one more thing Neal expected August to do—that yet again, August did NOT do. Obviously, August did NOT tell Emma anything. It is entirely in my imagination-headcannon though, for now, until we learn otherwise. So what I’m saying is, once again, there may be a difference in what Neal expected and knew and what Emma expected and knew. So Neal may have for a brief time (when Emma was in FTL) expected Emma to come, and then decided she isn’t—because with as long as they’d been apart, if you found out all that, you wouldn’t wait around (hat portals aside). So its not like he would think he’d need to wait more than a day before realizing, yes, she’s chosen not to come find me. As you say though, he may not have thought she would ever come look for him. He may have thought the bridge burned well and truly the day he left her.
I absolutely love Hook’s quote and I am a little torn on what to think about it because I do think he will be FAR more sympathetic to SF than Neal will ever be to CS (even as a friendship).
I agree.
I’m not sure who’s cramming HookedQueen at you—but tried to edit my earlier thoughts in there—only trying to respond to your comments about it.
I fear that if they don’t set him up with someone and have it be integral somehow (could be Emma, Ariel may be important – I hope she’s not a 1-shot deal, somebody else could step forward, who knows), that he will be backburnered
I understand that worry—really to me the strongest point for FQ or HQ is the Q is as front & center as Emma. Beyond that I do not see obvious foreshadowing for either.
Perhaps out there is somebody that can effectively argue HQ to me someday or perhaps I’ll find it on my own through the show but with everything we have to go on right now, that’s the only part of that “rhombus” (and I think Adam said he was only joking but goodness knows) that I can’t see remotely happening.
I’m not even trying to argue for it—just explain a little bit in response to your comments that imply its only something suggested to pair off Hook to make room for SF—when that to me is much more likely to be the case for FQ. HQ was talked about before the season started—and before Tallahassee. Its better with that scene in the dungeon talking about revenge being an end, than when I first saw the concept and thought of that Lady Gaga song bad romance (and I get some people LOVE that kind of thing) but still not something I’d go and try to root to happen.
I just wouldn’t be as surprised as I would be over FQ. Since there have not been any Neal/Regina alone scenes it is something that to me required a higher degree of imagination to consider. I don’t think Lana has talked about Neal for Regina, but she has mentioned Hook (though I think it was before we saw the OUAT version). So again—each of us will find one thing or another compelling or not as we see the clouds go, but I doubt people were looking for FQ shaped clouds as early as there were people looking for HQ ones (because Q has a lot of fans who seek her happiness, and applaud her evilness—personally, I didn’t like Regina/Graham but….each their own). I do not think we see a lot of those fans on these forums actively discussing but I’ve seeen stuff on tumblr/random comments here and there on video or news articles and such.
I will agree with the cloud metaphor though! In fact that may be my new favorite way of explaining we all see different things and it’s ok because we’re never going to get it right 100% of the time anyway!
I used that a few days ago when introducing a list of parallels in the SF thread that are visual with camera angles and things between Snowing and SF. A few of us kicked those around and many agreed that such things don’t mean much –or can be misleading because how many different ways can you show certain things? Or to go back to LOST—what is coincidence (writers didn’t plan it) and what is “fate” as the writers planned it. They can be fun to do all the same, and I actually like reading them—there are some great ones on the CS thread for CS.
Regina is still a central figure as she is one of Henry’s mothers and I think she’ll be very easily persuaded… Rumple to go to extremes to get Henry back (not that Emma wouldn’t, but her and her parents methods are vastly different from people like Rumple & Regina).
This is a good point—Hook was not as extreme as Cora and my headcannon is that the reason he hid under the rubble when Cora rage-attacked the village (we don’t know why she did it, my HC on it is she was furious about losing the wardrobe and took it out on those poor people). Hook freaked out and stole the bracelet while she was all hopped up on heart stealing and didn’t notice where he went. She’s powerful but not omniscient so she thought he’d run off.
Sorry, thought wandered off there, but anyway Hook has limits that I think are far short of the kind of destruction that Regina or Rumpel (as the Dark One) might advocate. I’m not sure how far Rumpel will go –but he did put the Dark Curse in motion even if we haven’t seen him slaughter a village.
I don’t really think he’s going to go in all guns blazing / magic-wielding and ignore the wishes of Snowing & Emma when he knew they were planning on doing things the long hard stupid way to save Regina (which is all he knew was in store for him when he turned around to help).
I agree—cue the Nick Fury speech again—I could totally see Hook calling them on something this time with NL is not that happy, it won’t work, or whether that is the full-evil choice. He might back up Emma or he might talk her into something—he is a wildcard in this mix.
Again, I take everything with a grain of salt from the morons in the PR department.
So true—I think if you take out the August scene with the date comment though, the Men of Storybrooke is kind of cute, and does have the Hook & Emma scenes, and Neal and Emma scenes. Yet clearly whoever puts those things together isn’t in the loop. Its better than the ABCdotcomedy things.
Also – I stand by what I said earlier, I don’t think that Neal really expected Emma to know and/or try to find him. What was she going to do, follow a dove? Or did he expect August to give her a ride back to NY? The way they left things, it sounds like the ball was in his court. He may very well have wished that August would fill her in on some things, but he still started his relationship with Tamara immediately after August officially headed to SB so I’m inclined to think he wasn’t expecting Emma to try to find him – otherwise he’s worse than I thought and I was just starting to like him again. (Seriously if he expected her to show up in a few weeks/months, way to majorly sabotage it! Bad enough he didn’t go find her after the postcard but he got his wires crossed with August if he thought Emma was supposed to seek him out and on top of that, 2 minutes after hearing August say that he starts something with Tamara? And I thought Rumple had sabotage isssues!) So I go back to my original thinking in that Neal didn’t think Emma would forgive him and he chose not to pay attention to the post card. He may have thought about it / agonized over it for a bit, but I don’t think, based on what we know right now, that he really expected her to show up. If he did well…he would have been majorly surprised and would have had his fiancee right there and felt majorly stupid and guilty. Not that he didn’t this time around, but I realllly don’t think he expected to ever see her again, having made the choice to cut ties with FTL but be happy for her finding her parents etc.)
Neal wouldn’t have known that send you a postcard was just all August intended to do—maybe he thought it was a simplified way of saying August would let him know, so no, that’s silly to think Emma would follow the dove or whatever. Maybe that happens in the alternate universe of the world’s most awkward double date. Anyway, my point is that Neal might have thought that as August drives away, that maybe August will explain things to Emma, even though he did not specifically ask August to do that. Is it a stupid thing to expect a guy who begs you to do the RIGHT thing and leave your girlfriend, that breaks your heart in front of him to the point you are choked up, might have a heart, and years later at least try to explain what he [August] had a role in doing. Neal was pretty doom and gloom though, so more likely he didn’t expect August to do much. August doesn’t promise much, but he sure managed to deliver even less.
My HC wasn’t that Neal expected “ a few weeks or months”–but if on the day the curse broke, August had sat down and explained everything to Emma and said “Its your choice, here is Neal’s address, he is in NY”, then told Neal in a postcard “Emma knows, I told her to go find you if she can forgive you, good luck buddy”, it would have set up Neal to wait more. Instead, what happened is Neal watches August drive away, and then he gets this card with Broken on it. We don’t know how much time passed between these things, but at least a year I think. August arrived in SB after Emma had been there for awhile after her 28th birthday. Then we were speculating that Emma was in FTL on her 29th. So shortly after that is when Neal got the card, and I think it is after that he gets engaged to Tamara, not before. We don’t really know. We also don’t know when that relationship became a relationship as opposed to this girl he’d just met who keeps calling him up.
So I think again, what Neal could have reasonably thought is that August would explain it to Emma and that if Emma could forgive, that she would track him down fast. So close to a year goes by, with him wondering what happened and thinking every day that Emma might have broken the curse, and as he feared, doesn’t want to see him again. Then he gets the postcard so he at least knows for sure it is broken—but that is all August said. So why that and nothing else? So then Neal would feel for sure for sure all hope is gone, because if she could have forgiven him, she would have found him by then ( a week later let’s say) or August would have had more to say on the card. Then on the other side, he has Tamara pushing him hard and so he just goes with it.
On the whole, Phee’s explanation is probably better—just Neal was so convinced and at a low point, that he fell prey to Tamara, thinking it was fate. Yet what still stands is we do not know exactly what the timing was on Neal and Tamara, only that he met her and she got his number shortly before the time August appeared in SB. We also know that Neal was not expecting to see Emma in Manhattan, had no idea who Gold was etc.
There are a lot of missing details but it is true that Neal lost hope and tried to move on, regardless of how close it was to finding out about the curse being broken or not.
The shipper wars have turned EVERYTHING into shipping even when it’s not.
Yes, proof in point, my comment that some people get a little Grumpy—clearly, look around and you’ll see enough to know some people are not shippers at all and hate Neal/Hook/Hopper anything not to do with certain characters equally, and hate shipping to boot too!.
Maybe the CSers are just very devoted to combing over everything to grab every straw we can? It’s fun to have a safe place to go and as we’ve discussed at length, it’s very very scary everywhere else. I recently joined tumblr and am learning but apparently CS has been deemed “the cancer of the fandom” and asked not to tag Emma or OUAT in any of their posts (people seriously, just block the things that are also tagged CS) – I avoid the Colin tag a lot because there’s a lot of HQ in it. I don’t go and write on their stuff and tell them how awful it is though. I stay inside my little bubble and try not to think about the fact we’re being banished left and right.
I do think a lot of people migrated to tumblr—I haven’t yet as I don’t like the format much. I surf it a little now and again but it seemed to me that anytime you see something like “cancer of the fandom”–it is a PERSON not a group that voices it, and even if a few people agree—odds are, the same has happened the other direction too—or whatever direction, as SQ is way more represented on tumblr than here, and there’s still Woodenswan stuff and Gremma …so its quite different. I should see if there is actually TinySwan—haven’t checked lol.
(Really annoyed I forgot about Jen’s livetweet earlier, I wanted to ask about Emma’s relationship with Anton and what she thought of that. To me he’s like Emma’s Grumpy: I love Snow & Grumpy’s relationship and want to see more of Emma & Anton – see, not a shipper question, just a friend one that doesn’t even relate to my favorite male character! I adore him and his show didn’t get picked up so there’s always a chance he’ll be hanging with Team7 again )
See though I joke about TinySwan, I’m really not making it a shipper thing—I agree absolutely their friendship is awesome.
[quoteAnd with that I officially give up. Hiatus-fever is definitely getting the best of me and I don’t know what points I’ve argued into the ground or if I’ve agreed with the same thing a million times at this point. [/quote]
And a 1000 magical mice heave a sigh of relief. I absolutely agree its getting circular and reaching that point of bedrock on a lot off stuff, where its just matter of taste at this point. I don’t feel I’m “arguing” for something—just most of the time do not want to be misunderstood and my main motivation to particpate was to, as said above somewhere, help put out a view that could bridge your instinctive reactions to somethings to help you hate something less, to the extent you were feeling you did hate it. There’s no reason not to love your ship—regardless of how easily or far others see it or not.“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
I get why he did it and that there are definitely a lot of emotions involved in all of it. I guess I’m mostly disappointed because he learned from Rumple’s mistakes but not Milah’s. He wants to be a better father to Henry because his wasn’t good, but he knew centuries ago that Milah regretted leaving him and never did anything about it. The fact that he did that to someone and chose not to do anything about it when he knows exactly how much it hurts grates me. He had the option, he was reminded of the option, and he chose to walk away.
I had to respond to this. I completely disagree. I get that Rumple made a terrible choice in letting Bae go, but he was a wonderful father to Bae – in fact, a wonderful mother and father. The fact that Bae turned into such a fine young man is in large part due to Rumple. Bae is very angry with his papa, but deep down inside, he still loves him. There is a lot more to their relationship than just Rumple letting go. They have a lot to work out, but the Rumple Bae refuses to remember right now because he is so angry was a wonderful, kind, gentle and good soul. Just because he doesn’t want to acknowledge it doesn’t mean it’s not so. His entire childhood did not suck as he told Emma. No matter what he says, deep inside he knows differently. His feeling this way consciously is his way of being able to cope – it’s not the truth.
For another thing, I don’t buy that Milha regretted walking away from Bae. I admit I despise her, but she and Hook were what – as Hook said, they were going to come back for Bae later? After the heavy lifting of the parenting had been done? She wasn’t a mother, she walked out on her son. She preferred her husband dead to a living breathing person who could father their boy. She abused him every day since he returned, constantly, and she destroyed him. LOL The casting call referred to Milha as a woman bored with being a mother. You don’t get to decide you’re bored……it’s a lifetime job.
Sorry, I know this has nothing to do with Swanfire, but………
Oh and I used to ship Snowing hard (not like I ship Rumbelle now), prior to Skin Deep, but now? They’re ok. I like them well enough, but I blow hot and cold with them as people, so…..
Rumbelle is my world. I can’t talk about Rumbelle without writing an Epic poem, lol – that’s how much they inspire me. I’m the least romantic person you’d ever meet, but they bring that out in me – only them, lol. I won’t blather on about them, but their love to me is unbelievably exquisite, undying, eternal, profoundly deep. Their desperate need to touch each other makes me cry……..Ok, I’ll stop it here. You get the point, lol
I despise Hook, so I’ll leave it there……..I do like Swanfire a lot……..but there’s only going to ever be one couple for me
My goodness…I certainly cannot compete with the thorough discussions of the previous posts, but I’ll give you a quick briefing on my perspective.
I personally think Neal and Emma are endgame and that this has been set up since “Tallahassee”. They were passionately in love in the past, and every interaction since they reunited has indicated that they have both been in complete denial about still harboring feelings for each other. (I think thou dost protest too much!) Rumple definitely saw it. I may be one of the few who was *not* surprised by their declaration of love right before Neal let go. When the stakes are high, the emotional walls each had built come down. Of course, I fully admit that I may be a hopelessly optimistic romantic! In the real world, I’d agree that it wouldn’t be so cut and dry- Neal did make some poor choices….however, this is a fairy tale world in a show about hope, faith, redemption, and true love. I will be very surprised if Swanfire doesn’t end up being TL.
As for Hook and Emma… I would say yes, they have absolutely made a connection. They are kindred spirits. However, as of now, I have not seen any indication they are interested in each other romantically. If I hadn’t been a part of the fandom, I’m not sure it would have even occurred to me to think of them this way. I’m not saying that this couldn’t change! Just because I don’t see it, doesn’t make it impossible. I’ll admit there is some potential for it, but I think it would be a rather awkward coupling considering Hook’s past.
It’s happened before that something I was adamantly opposed to turned out to be true, but the way they told the story worked, and I later wondered why I was so opposed to it! This was the case with Cora being the Queen of Hearts as well as Bae ending up in Neverland. So if CS turns out to be endgame, I’m sure they’ll make it work in a way that I can accept it!
@KFChimera wrote:
However, we’ve already seen that Henry’s greatest wish is for his parents to be back together, so if Hook is standing in the way of that, I don’t see Henry wanting to be friends with him.
I’m not sure about that—I think Henry likes the idea of them reuniting, but I think his greatest wish would be everyone happy, so if Emma really bonded with Hook, and Hook played a big role rescuing him, I guess I could see Henry accepting it, if Nealfire could get over it too—but its a mess for sure.
If we hadn’t had an insight into Henry’s headcanon, I’d be more inclined to see him as being flexible. But given that we’ve seen him daydreaming about SF’s first date, before the Tamara obstacle had even been taken care of, I’d expect him to not be a huge fan of Hook if he’s the next potential obstacle.
Of course, perhaps Hook will do something heroic that allows them to save Henry, or even Emma (should the speculation in another thread about her being the one PP is really, ultimately after prove true), in which case, Henry would think he was pretty awesome. But even taking that into consideration, I think he’d disapprove of CS getting close.
He wasn’t like “hey Hook, good to see you man, you did me a solid, killing my old man. I’ll call my girl T, and you, Emma, me and Henry can have the world’s most awkward double date.”
If you read this with MRJ’s voice in your head, it’s even more hilarious. 😆
(Honestly there was never any doubt in my mind after Tallahassee because of how he spoke of the lost boys but I know for some it took a long time to get to that point and they were pleasantly surprised with how cute the Hook teaching Bae to drive the ship scene was).
Those creepy lost boys that we have now met? Yes, that line seemed a lot different in meaning before I saw those guys tramping on his ship to chase down a boy for Peter Pan versus the cute little tykes in the animated movie.
I’m still hoping we might see Hook attempt to rescue Bae, in which case, he may well encounter the actual Lost Boys, the ones who are trapped there and do all the crying.
Of course, if he does attempt a rescue, he obviously doesn’t succeed. I’m currently imagining PP presenting Hook will safe passage out of NL, so he has the choice to keep trying to rescue Bae, or go after his Crocodile…and he chooses the latter.
Emma has spent a good portion of her life hurt by Neal though and I’m not willing to say anything 100% as to whether forgiving = starting over in a romantic way. It might, it might not.
There is the possibility of course, that she will forgive but fall out of love. Sounds less in keeping with the hopeful, fairytale nature of the show to me as a resolution. If Neal is depicted as constantly doubting Emma, then he would be the wrong guy. I just didn’t see that in their interactions. He believed in her in the past and in the present quite a bit even if he did not believe her about Tamara.
This times a frillion! I could have quoted pretty much all of KFC’s comments regarding the interactions between both SF and CS and just put WORD as my comment, but this sentiment is the icing on the SF cake to me. If she can arrive at that place where she completely understands and forgives how and why he left her, I think that will serve to strengthen her love for him and give her hope for their future, rather than her wanting to just leave their love in the past. This show, as we’ve been told countless times by the guys who created it, is ultimately about hope.
CS have an understanding, and a connection, and JMo and Colin have mad chemistry, so if they choose to build on that and have an actual relationship develop, I’d find it believable. But to me, all things considered, SF just makes more sense as endgame.
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