Gender in OUAT

[Slurpeez]

However, this is also true which means that A and E either 1) don’t really understand their characters 2) don’t really care if there are inconsistencies or 3) don’t see the inconsistencies in writing from week to week.

Yeah. Maybe A&E have blinders on because they’re too close to the product and cannot step back and observe that the show used to be character driven but is now plot driven. Or maybe they’ve ceased caring as much as they used to because they grow bored easily and are trying other projects (e.g. Tron Legacy or their new summer show for ABC Family). Or perhaps they could be very Machiavellian and use the inconsistencies to play both ends against the middle. We won’t know for sure until the end.

[MatthewPaul]

Yeah. Maybe A&E have blinders on because they’re too close to the product and cannot step back and observe that the show used to be character driven but is now plot driven. Or maybe they’ve ceased caring as much as they used to because they grow bored easily and are trying other projects (e.g. Tron Legacy or their new summer show for ABC Family). Or perhaps they could be very Machiavellian and use the inconsistencies to play both ends against the middle. We won’t know for sure until the end.

Tron Legacy predates Once Upon a Time, actually. They did do the animated TV series, Tron Uprising, but that was way back when they were still doing Seasons 1 and 2 of Once Upon a Time. That series didn’t last long, as Disney XD cancelled it in less than a year (May 2012-January 2013).

[Slurpeez]

Tron Legacy predates Once Upon a Time, actually. They did do the animated TV series, Tron Uprising, but that was way back when they were still doing Seasons 1 and 2 of Once Upon a Time. That series didn’t last long, as Disney XD cancelled it in less than a year (May 2012-January 2013).

Ok…but it still doesn’t matter. They’ve tried other (unsuccessful) projects (even though OUAT in WL was actually better than OUAT S3-S5 in my opinion). My point remains. They seem discontent to give their entire focus to making OUAT consistent.

. Well that’s part of the problem isn’t it? And what I was saying above. The writers use rape–or as I more often than not call it, wonk consent–to move plot without every actually thinking through any of those consequences. They have Hook drop a line like getting women drunk and taking them back to the JR for sex, or they have Regina and Graham sleeping together when he’s clearly not “The Huntsman” because he’s cursed but they never give any sort of commentary on it. They just have it happen and move on to the next plot point. This is what leads to massive culture wars between the fandom.

Although the writers offering no commentary on these problematic elements of their writing is part of the bigger problem, I also think it goes back to what I wrote: they withhold their own commentary in order to maintain plausible deniability.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

We’ve talked about the genders individually, but what about together. Specifically I’m thinking about female-female interaction and male-male interaction. I don’t really have a question but do have a few observations.

The first season really hit female-female relationships, in all their complex forms, out of the park. Regina/Snow, Mary Margaret/Emma, Emma/Regina, Emma/Ruby, Ruby/Snow, Regina/Cora, Regina/Belle. All of these were highlighted to some degree (and more! I’m just sticking with the most memorable/lead characters). They were nuanced and complicated. I loved seeing that, at first, Regina saved Snow’s life and Snow tried to ensure that Regina wouldn’t lose her mother because she understood that particular pain. Or how Regina and Emma could put aside their bickering for a hot moment when Henry was trapped in the mines. Even in S2, we got to see Snow (not MM anymore) try to be a mother to a reluctant Emma–I love the nursery scene in which Snow hugs Emma. As the show progressed, however, these dynamics got a lot less attention. Snow saying that she’d stay with Charming in NVL over going home with Emma, or saying that while she loves her daughter, she really wants another baby because “we missed it all.” Regina and Emma still get a lot of development (though I suspect ulterior motives behind this from the writers). Belle is probably the biggest victim of this, never having a female friend for longer than a single episode and never being apart of “gal time” when Snow, Emma,and Regina are all doing something together. However, while I do think that the show has become too lax in their female-female treatment, it’s certainly better than the males.

I remember back in S1, A and E talking about how Rumple was jealous of Charming. He wanted to be the knight in shinning armor and the hero but knew he couldn’t be; he admired Charming’s White Knight tendencies and had respect for him. This idea played out a bit in S2’s “The Crocodile” when Charming and Rumple had a little day adventure. But that’s…about it. There have been small moments–like Rumple saving Charming’s life–but for the most part, male-male friendships are all but non-existent. Hook and Charming might speak to each other during a scene, it’s not camaraderie. Rumple and Hook loathe each other with the fire of a thousand suns. Robin and Hook have had a few moments that were actually interesting, though it seems as if they were always about their respective love interests/entanglements. Neal and Rumple, of course, had tons of potential for showing male-male friendship (along the lines of Emma and Mary Margaret) but also a father-son trying to heal their fractured relationship. I’m really struggling to figure out why male-male friendships seems so non-existent in this show. I have a fairly cynical theory, but think I’ll keep it mum until I see what other people have to say.

So maybe that’s my question: why do positive same-sex friendships get left in the dust on this show?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Slurpeez]

With the exception of Regina and Emma’s budding friendship, yes, most platonic relationships get sidelined in favor of romance. And even that relationship probably is SQ-driven on the part of the writers catering to the SQ fans (who read way more into it than just friendship/co-parents).

I think the writers are all about the ships now, especially CaptainSwan, OutlawQueen, and SQ-baiting—all of which comes at the expense of S1 romances like Snowing and Rumbelle–who get less and less focus with each passing season. If not even Snowing or Rumbelle get that much attention anymore, then familial relationships like Emma’s relationship with her parents or even Henry get majorly sidelined in favor of Emma’s relationship with Hook and Regina.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Slurpeez]

double post

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

I agree with Slurpeez that romantic relationships are driving the story now instead of friendship or family, but I can’t help but wonder if there isn’t another reason we don’t see male-male friendships on the show. Could it be fear that such a thing would cause the male equivalent of SQ? The writers go to rather extraordinary lengths to prevent males from interacting on the show unless it’s 1) about their female entanglements or b) the two men are enemies.

They are definitely tons (tons) of buddy-buddy shows out there. But off the top of my head, I can’t think of a modern TV version that is set in a fantasy/sci-fi situation. Most of the time it’s a male-female dynamic (Doctor Who; Orphan Black) or the focus is on two females (The 100 or, lol, Orphan Black for instance). I guess the closest are Dean and Castiel from Supernatural, but…well, see below.

Do the writers fear some sort of fandom homoerotic ramifications? I mean, it’s not uncommon. For example, the aforementioned Dean and Castiel are probably *the* biggest ship in internet fan culture. And the show runners over and over say that they are more like brothers but that doesn’t stop the internet (nothing can stop the internet). The same can be said of JohnLock or on the female side, our own SwanQueen or something like Clexa.

I’m not openly accusing the writers of anything at this point, just spitballing ideas. Are they scared of how the fandom/internet would take two men being close, like the show does often portray women to varying degrees of success? And what does that say about their own gender politics?

And on the flip side, we know that they laid some ground work for an LGBT relationship in this past arc, presumably with Mulan. Is this an appeasement for the LGBT community, who are *quite* vocal? Writers won’t give them canon-Swen so they give them Mulan and (insert your choice of female here) for (presumably) one episode? Killing two birds with one stone: answer for the criticism that the show has never shown an LGBT love story on a show that likes to believe it is all about love AND appease one section of the fandom? But why not do the same for men?

I’m rambling now because I’m honestly just talking this out in my head so I’ll just hit submit and see what you guys think.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[nevermore]

S1 (and 2 to some extent), while not super on male friendships, at least had some stuff going on — for example, there was that random Jefferson/Rumple/Dr Whale episode about Dr. Frankenstein and science vs magic. It wasn’t really a centric on any of those, since its main goal was to set up the Daniel resurrection fiasco and Regina’s back story, but it was something. There were occasional scenes of Rumple/Charming, and there were also just other connections — not necessarily friendships, but something that gave the feeling that the characters were part of a large, complicated, very fraught social network.

For me, things began to lose that sense of “texture” sometimes in S3 with the introduction of Zelena. Honestly, while there were signs of trouble before, I remember thinking that they’d pushed it too far with Zelena. Making her Regina’s sister, with a pretty twisted relationship to Rumple to boot did not help things either. Then making the whole show about Zelena, such that she was involved with almost every single main character, just kinda killed it for me. It took the show’s whole take on fairytales and villains/heroes from cleverly stylized exaggeration to something that you either had to take as campy spoof (think, the PG version of Rocky Horror Picture Show) or as a kind of distastefully grotesque melodrama. (I still feel grumpy about Zelena because for me, she was what “broke the 4th wall,” even before the whole business with Neal). Ok, sorry, I digressed — the point about Zelena is that, for me, she was the character that made the show’s focus on family move from intriguing and engaging to slightly ridiculous.

But then came the Frozen money-grab, a progressive shift towards prioritizing romances, especially those of a “new” variety, which I think is what @Slurpeez was hinting at upthread. (Rumbelle and Snowing get less time because, I presume, they’re married? With the assumption that the audience only wants to watch those romances where it’s uncertain whether the guy gets the girl?)

What blows me away with all of this is that how is it possible that Kistowitz wouldn’t want to write at least one strong male friendship. I mean, Kistowitz. See what I did there? They don’t have to go too far for an example of what is obviously a long-standing friendship and intellectual partnership, which dates back to their college days, so over 20 years.

I think, @RG, you might be onto something. It seems to be so much the elephant in the room that maybe it really is about wanting to steer clear from the fandom’s projections. Though that’s truly sad. If they are indeed so concerned about the “homoerotic” overtones of any portrayals of male intimacy that they are actively refusing to depict examples of male friendship, that’s just one pitiful commentary on the state of things.

[MatthewPaul]

RG, you do raise an interesting point. There’s really no vocally large male gay ship in this fandom. I’m sure they exist somewhere, but they are relatively quiet. Could it be because of what you said?

I should point out that they did try a bromance between Charming and Arthur, but that quickly dissolved as we learned that Arthur was a villain by the end of the same episode. Perhaps the writers could have had Arthur be a good guy or at the very least a neutral party instead, for the sake of further developing that bromance?

We also had Hook bonding with Baelfire during the Season 2 finale flashback. A deleted scene from that same episode even showed Hook upset after hearing about Neal’s supposed death. Yes Hook betrayed Baelfire by selling him out to the Lost Boys, but they could have built on from that. They could have explored Hook regretting that decision, and wanting to make atonement. Maybe he could have even kept an eye on Baelfire, or perhaps even tried saving him from Pan’s enslavement? Season 3A should have expanded upon their relationship, but instead their combined screen time became all about that stupid love triangle of doom. Their past together didn’t even come up again until “Quiet Minds”, and that felt like it was tacked on to resolve loose ends.

There’s also plenty of lost potential with Rumple and Henry. With Henry being Rumple’s grandson and the last living connection to his son, you would think that the two would spend a lot more time together? They tried some of that in Season 4A, with Henry working in Rumple’s shop as his apprentice. However, Henry was merely using that as an excuse to snoop around, rather than to actually bond with his grandfather. We barely saw much of this particular plotline, either.

[Slurpeez]

I’m not openly accusing the writers of anything at this point, just spitballing ideas. Are they scared of how the fandom/internet would take two men being close, like the show does often portray women to varying degrees of success? And what does that say about their own gender politics?

While I’m not dismissing the possibility, I think there is a straightfoward and obvious reason why there aren’t more male relationships or bromances portrayed on the show; it’s because the show isn’t as focused around men as it is women. With the exception of Rumple (who is arguably the most complex of the male characters and whose quest to find his son used to drive the plot of the entire show), I think Robin, Hook and Charming are pretty much just the arm candy of the women with whom they’re involved. That is largely due in part to the women of the show being much more interesting, multifaceted and layered by comparison.

When this show was conceived of, it was intended to be primarily about women and their relationships with each other. Though Snow’s S1 arc did focus heavily on finding Charming, it was also about being a step-daughter, a mother and a best friend to Ruby. To think the writers even thought about killing off Charming in the pilot! It was only thanks to the ABC’s intervention that kept Charming around, citing the reason that Snow’s happy ending would have been forfeit before the show had even started! That does give a window onto where A&E’s heads were at back when they were conceiving the show; they really considered Charming expendable to the main story. Now Charming pretty much just exists as Snow’s love interest and Emma’s dad.

Of all the male characters’ episodes, only Rumple’s episodes have really ever captivated me. And what drove those early episodes like Desperate Souls was really Robert Carlyle’s acting ability. But, looking back, I don’t think I really have enjoyed any of the backstory episodes that were just about Charming, Hook or Robin Hood. While the actors who portray them are alright enough, they aren’t method actors like Robert Carlyle and their characters are very flat and mostly irrelevant to the main plot, despite the writers’ attempts to make them relevant. (Warlord Bo Peep *twitch*)

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[Author]

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