- This topic has 42 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 8 years, 8 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
A male friendship that has been portrayed on the show albeit in not much detail is that of Pan and Felix. It was more of a background friendship but it was honest and genuine because it enabled Pan to use Felix’s heart to cast the dark curse and even gave Pan the line “love doesn’t have to be about romance or family. It can be loyalty and friendship” or something along those lines. For me, Pan and Felix were the most interesting dynamic of 3A (because it wasn’t romance led) and it was a shame we didn’t get more of them but there was a lot we didn’t get because of the compressed amount of episodes for 3A.
I think fandomwise, any two characters that share a scene, or are even on the same show, are going to be shipped one way or another. The only time they’re generally not is when they’re family but even then some people still do ship it. It would be ridiculous to avoid male friendships just because the writers don’t want them shipped together.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIf they are indeed so concerned about the “homoerotic” overtones of any portrayals of male intimacy that they are actively refusing to depict examples of male friendship, that’s just one pitiful commentary on the state of things.
We talk, sometimes, about how OUAT exists as part of a culture–Hollywood. It’s its own system and society. And like any good society it has rules, roles people play, and ways in which gender is performed.
While Hollywood is progressing, it is still more or less an old-white-heterosexual-boys club. This is why anytime something really big happens to a woman (like being made head of a studio or getting to direct a huge sci-fi (read: associated mainly with men) movie), everyone talks about it as if it’s a BIG DEAL. Example: there was an article a month or two back about a woman directing some huge blockbuster sci-fi film. The actual title of the article was shock about how a woman would be directing this film.
Part of this society is that men are men. They are tough, strong, take care of the women, and their relationships with other men are strictly of a handshake-drink-beers kind. Men can be friendly with one another but they don’t form the sort of close bonds that women (the fairer and far more emotionally driven sex) form. Which is absolutely ludercrious in real life, like @nevermore pointed out with Kitsowitz.
My point is that A and E fall into a lot of the same traps of storyteling that media has been stuck in for a long time. And that’s simply because they live in a culture that is long standing and holds on to their own mores rather fiercely. Somehow, someway, having two men in a close friendship invites homosexuality and there’s some sort of giant red flag that goes up. Think about how people discuss Frodo and Samwise, for instance.
think there is a straightfoward and obvious reason why there aren’t more male relationships or bromances portrayed on the show; it’s because the show isn’t as focused around men as it is women
Sure but they don’t exactly do a bang up job with the women any more either. And like @MatthewPaul said, look at the fandom. Our fandom is many things but quiet isn’t one of them. There are no outwardly loud, passionate gay ships. If there were, we would have heard about them. So why the lack of male-male pairings? Because the writers go to a lot of lengths to keep the men apart, never forming any sort of bond, and always talking about or having their plot revolve around their heterosexual relationships.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"A male friendship that has been portrayed on the show albeit in not much detail is that of Pan and Felix. It was more of a background friendship but it was honest and genuine because it enabled Pan to use Felix’s heart to cast the dark curse and even gave Pan the line “love doesn’t have to be about romance or family. It can be loyalty and friendship” or something along those lines.
I never really saw Pan and Felix having a mutual friendship. Felix was clearly loyal, but Pan is basically a cult leader. When your identity has been so robbed or changed by the presence of a charismatic cult leader persona, you’ll do anything. Look at Jonestown. Look at Waco. That’s what cult leaders are capable of. Even the young lost boy Regina and Emma caught and tried to tempt with the bar of chocolate had the same reaction as Felix: unwavering loyalty. Pan never asked about that boy, never cared. He just needed his followers.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I wish we had seen more of it, honestly, but one of the threads that made 5A interesting was the relationship between David and Arthur. Arthur’s more redeeming moments were those in which he expressed affection for, and regret over betraying, David. I really wish that they’d played up the inner conflict in Arthur more; he comes off as almost straight up villainous but there are moments when you almost see his perspective of trying to protect his kingdom and gain that legacy he was promised not just for himself, but for his people. And the moments when he seems most genuine are those with David.
I’ve also found the dynamic between David and Rumple fascinating, though it’s been played down since S3. (We did see an echo of it when Rumple takes on the David role of White Knight in the AU though.) They don’t exactly like each other, but Henry’s grandpas have a mutual respect (David’s for Rumple’s brains/power, which he’s willing to tap into as needed, and Rumple for David’s courage/strength, which, well, same) that makes for a fascinating contrast. And you definitely get the sense that each wants some level of what the other has, Rumple more than David. 122, 204, and 219 were delicious moments in this relationship, and I’d love to see more development of it.
Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing
I wish we had seen more of it, honestly, but one of the threads that made 5A interesting was the relationship between David and Arthur.
100% agree. I thought Siege Perilous was actually a good set up episode for those two. And then they lost all my good will the very next week with Arthur and his magical mind rape.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"100% agree. I thought Siege Perilous was actually a good set up episode for those two. And then they lost all my good will the very next week with Arthur and his magical mind rape.
Take away the mind rape, which they have done on this show before so it wasn’t a shocker for me at all, and I actually enjoyed The Broken Kingdom. I know I am in the minority on here with that, but oh well.
I never really saw Pan and Felix having a mutual friendship. Felix was clearly loyal, but Pan is basically a cult leader. When your identity has been so robbed or changed by the presence of a charismatic cult leader persona, you’ll do anything. Look at Jonestown. Look at Waco. That’s what cult leaders are capable of. Even the young lost boy Regina and Emma caught and tried to tempt with the bar of chocolate had the same reaction as Felix: unwavering loyalty. Pan never asked about that boy, never cared. He just needed his followers.
I disagree. For the dark curse to work, Pan would’ve needed to sacrifice the heart of the thing he loved most which was Felix, anything less wouldn’t have worked eg Regina tried to sacrifice her horse but in the end had to sacrifice her father. Felix assumed the thing Pan loved most would be Rumple, his son, but Pan corrected him saying that love doesn’t have to be romance or family but can be loyalty and friendship. Loyalty and friendship go hand in hand. Also when Neal escaped from Felix and Felix returned to camp, he didn’t even have to say anything before Pan was there saying “I know that look. What happened?”. In Dark Hollow when Ariel left Neverland and Pan felt it, he was sat beside Felix and they were both sharpening sticks or something in silence. I really wish the Neverland characters had been fleshed out more as there are so many unanswered questions. I do think Pan and Felix’s friendship was a genuine one, however Pan will always put himself first when it comes down to the crunch and that’s what he did. It makes him a bad friend but that doesn’t mean the friendship wasn’t real.
The lost boy Emma and Regina caught, Devin I think, wasn’t loyal to Pan, he was afraid of him. He was one of the boys that turned on Pan when the Nevengers captured the camp.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felixdisagree. For the dark curse to work, Pan would’ve needed to sacrifice the heart of the thing he loved most which was Felix, anything less wouldn’t have worked eg Regina tried to sacrifice her horse but in the end had to sacrifice her father.
I don’t quite agree because I think genuine friendship means not sacrificing the friend’s heart and to quote episode 5×10 “there’s always a loophole”, but for the sake of argument and this thread, let’s go with it:
if this is the single genuine male-male friendship we’ve seen on OUAT, what does THAT say about gender depictions–specifically masculinity–on this show?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"if this is the single genuine male-male friendship we’ve seen on OUAT, what does THAT say about gender depictions–specifically masculinity–on this show?
I think it says that males can’t truly be friends without some ulterior motive. I think the show’s need for “strong women” has gone too far to the point that it is sexist to men. The men aren’t equal to the women, they’re attachments. They’re the damsels in distress.
The shows moral compass is screwed up, not just in terms of gender depictions but also in terms of being a parent vs romantic love. Roland used to be so important to Robin, now Roland is handed to whatever merry man is nearby whilst Robin goes galavanting off to be with Regina. Henry used to be important to both Emma and Regina, but they barely spend time with him because their lovers are more important.
That’s not to say that parents shouldn’t enjoy romantic love too but the show seems to be making it a choice between child vs lover and apparently lover wins.
Here’s how A&E seem to react when fans bring up concerns about questionable messages that the show is sending out.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI think it says that males can’t truly be friends without some ulterior motive. I think the show’s need for “strong women” has gone too far to the point that it is sexist to men. The men aren’t equal to the women, they’re attachments. They’re the damsels in distress.
This is a fantastic point, I think. It’s harmful to women because a strong woman doesn’t need “arm candy.” She can have meaningful, considerate, passionate, relationships with anyone without one of them needing to be subservient. It’s harmful to men because their stories make them look weak (Charming), foolish (Robin), or evil (Hook)–with Rumple falling somewhere in that vicinity.
I think this mainly results from a massive misunderstanding of what is at the heart of feminism. Not that women are better than men and should be treated as such, with men become the submissive and demure sex for once–but that men and women are equals. They are capable of the same greatness and capable of the same faults. And it takes both of them to make a community.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
The topic ‘Gender in OUAT’ is closed to new replies.