- This topic has 249 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 9 years, 1 month ago by
.
-
Posts
-
[adrotate group="5"]
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixWhich is better — to be sorted into a house at random or to be placed into a house based upon one’s personality traits, preferences, and talents? I would actually argue the latter is preferable
Oh it’s absolutely the latter. But it’s someone/thing dictating who you are at a young age. Like I said, I don’t want to do away with the houses and I don’t actually have a solution to my problem, more like I’m just pointing out that there is a problem in the way it’s presented because 1) our abilities and personalities change so much over time and 2) it does rob the students of making that active choice. What if someone really wants to be in Ravenclaw for whatever reason (family history, prestige) but the Hat doesn’t think they are up to snuff in the smarts area? What does it do then? Harry is a different case because he IS brave and just. He is a perfect Gryffindr by the Hat’s checklist of what makes a good Gryffindor.
Let me put it this way. The way I see it, we have three options.
1) Arbitrary: the student is placed into a house willy nilly, no thought or process. For the record, I think this is the worst option.
2) Sorting Hat: based apparently on traits, characteristics, but also seems to ignore child development and we aren’t sure how much choice the student (outside of Harry) has.
3) Students choose: This might be the best option if the characteristics of each house were explained to the students and if they were given a choice to also move houses if they found they didn’t fit in their first choice. However, I know that this robs the HP world of something so cool and magical as a Talking Hat.
She said that there is a clear advantage of the Hogwarts sorting hat over the Divergent system; namely, in “Divergent” the characters have to sever all ties with the faction they come from if they choose to change to a new faction. At Hogwarts, students are free to form inter-house friendships, as many students do in the later novels.
Yes, but they also get to choose in Divergent, their choice is not “made for them” via magical plot device thingy. They are shown which faction they are best suited to, but they ultimately get to make that choie So it’s almost a catch-22. You’re not allowed to associate with other factions, including the faction you were born into if you left your birth faction and if you fail your new faction’s initiation process you become “factionless” which is a whole other ball game.
example: Tris, the main character was born in Abnegation but went to Dauntless and thus had to break ties with her parents (Abnegation) and her brother (who went to Erudite)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"What’s the descriptions of each house again?
Basic breakdown:
Gryffindor: brave and just
Hufflepuff: kind and loyal
Ravenclaw: smart
Slytherin: ambitious and cunning
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I looked up the house traits on Wikipedia and placed 20 Once characters in the houses I thought they’d be in. Do you agree/ disagree? What houses do you think would suit the Once characters?
Gryffindor values courage, bravery, nerve, and chivalry.
Belle- Because although she doesn’t fight monsters or whatever, she makes the hard decisions when it comes to Rumple. She doesn’t turn a blind eye to his misdeeds, she stands up for what is right even though it is hard for her to do so. An example being banishing Rumple from Storybrooke.Emma- Because, despite her experiences, she isn’t afraid to give people a second chance. She is willing to fight against forces greater than herself and sacrifice herself for the greater good.
Nealfire- Because, like Belle, he isn’t afraid to stand up to Rumple no matter how much it pains him to do so. He stands up for what is right, even when it’s hard to do so. He admits to his mistakes and strives to be the best he can be, both for the sake of his son and the general good.
Tinkerbell- Because she stood up for Regina even when others told her it was a lost cause. She continued trying to help, even defying her superior’s orders to give up, which cost her wings. In Neverland, despite feeling resentment, she continued to help Regina and went against Pan even though the risk of being found out could’ve meant certain death.
Jefferson- Because he made the hard decision to not interfere in his daughter’s life whilst she was under the curse. He chose not to ruin Grace’s happy cursed life, even though it meant she did not know who he was. For 28 years he watched his daughter from afar, letting her have the family life he believed he could not provide for her.
Mulan- Because, much like Jefferson, she chose to put the happiness of someone else over her own wants. She walked away to let Aurora have her happy ending with Philip rather than burden her with her feelings which would only have caused conflict.
Hufflepuff values hard work, patience, justice, and loyalty.
Robin- Because he has his moral code that he generally sticks to, even if it conflicts with what he wants. He would rather taker the slow honest road rather than take the morally dubious quicker road.Charming- Because he has a strong sense of right and wrong in most matters. His weakness is his family, he’d do anything to protect them, even if it means going down a darker path than he is comfortable with.
Snow- Because she is very similar to Charming. She has a strong sense of right and wrong and isn’t afraid to fight the good fight no matter how long it takes. However, like Charming, her weakness is her family and her desire to protect her loved ones sometimes leads her to make rash decisions that is based on her emotions rather than logic
Felix- Because he is loyal, almost to a fault. He did not turn on Pan, whom he considered a friend, even though it would’ve been in his best interest to do so which suggests he considers betraying a friend to be morally wrong. His moral compass is skewed in Pan’s favour, but it could be argued that he was doing what he believed to be right in terms of saving his friend’s life and Neverland (if Pan had spun that line with everyone).
Archie- Because he does not judge people based on their past misdeeds. He understands that people make mistakes and will try and talk people out of making rash decisions. He provides a friendly ear to the likes of Regina and Rumple who otherwise would not have someone to talk to.
Red- Because she is loyal to her friends and believes in doing the right thing. She is protective of those she cares about.
Ravenclaw values intelligence, creativity, learning, and wit.
Rumple- Because although it seems he would fit into Slytherin, at his core Rumple has all of the above traits, he’s just using them negatively rather than positively.August- Because he just doesn’t seem to fit in any of the other houses. He doesn’t have the ruthless streak to be in Slytherin. He doesn’t have the courage or bravery to be in Gryffindor, instead thinking of his own needs above all others. He’s too selfish to be in Hufflepuff, he only came back to help Emma because it suited him to do so. He has intelligence and knowledge of matters others may not, but he does not use this knowledge for the greater good, only when it suits his needs.
Slytherin house values ambition, cunning, leadership, and resourcefulness.
Henry- Because he has displayed cunning and resourcefulness. He has ambition, he wants to be a hero in the same way he views the rest of his family as heroes. He’s not above resorting to deceit to get his own way. Henry has leadership qualities, he often initiates his Operation Whatevers.
Regina- Because she is impatient when it comes to getting what she wants. Unlike Robin who would take the slow honest road, Regina will take the quick dishonest road to achieve her goal. Whilst Regina may justify her actions to herself by claiming it’s for another’s sake, she’s not afraid to throw someone under a bus, such as Belle, if it means she can achieve her goal.
Hook- Because when he wants something, he pursues it so tunnel vision to the point of obsession. He knows what he wants and demonstrates a strong level of determination to achieve his goal. Whether it be revenge on an enemy, or winning someone’s heart, Hook becomes so single focussed that anyone in his way had better watch out.
Zelena- Because undoubtedly she is a Slytherin through and through. She is determined to get what she wants, and resorts to underhanded tactics to get her way. She will use people as pawns as achieve her aims without thought. Zelena is nobody’s follower.
Pan- Because, much like Zelena, he is a Slytherin through and though. He is nobody’s follower, he is in charge and woe betide anyone who challenges him. He is resourceful and cunning, manipulating those around him to further his goals. Even those he considers friends are not immune to being tossed aside as soon as the moment is right.
Cora- Because her ambition knows no bounds. Her determination to get what she wants is unrivalled, affecting generations and the lives of others. Cora is nobody’s fool, you’re either with her or against her.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixPOM, sorry I didn’t respond yesterday. I meant to. More or less agree on your placement except for Belle and Henry to certain degrees.
If it were straight up Disney Belle, then yeah I’d say Gryffindor was a much bigger possibility. But OUAT has taken Belle’s other big characteristic (smarts) and made it OUAT’s Belle defining (and only) characteristic by making her Google. I’d put her in Ravenclaw.
Henry: I get where you’re coming from but I don’t think his ability to be cunning and have guile is the first and biggest characteristic for the little lad because his cunning isn’t directed at getting himself ahead (he’s not really ambitious) it’s about righting past wrongs and family unity. I think he’s a Gryffindor or maybe Hufflepuff.
But again, that was rather the whole point of me asking everyone to place an OUAT character: it’s harder than it sounds and should be as equally hard to place Harry and the other students because humans are not static creatures with only one set of traits for their whole lives. We are creatures who react to stimuli based on traits, past history, and our own internal workings.
(ok, here endth my own personal problems with the Sorting Hat)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"POM, sorry I didn’t respond yesterday. I meant to. More or less agree on your placement except for Belle and Henry to certain degrees.
If it were straight up Disney Belle, then yeah I’d say Gryffindor was a much bigger possibility. But OUAT has taken Belle’s other big characteristic (smarts) and made it OUAT’s Belle defining (and only) characteristic by making her Google. I’d put her in Ravenclaw.
Henry: I get where you’re coming from but I don’t think his ability to be cunning and have guile is the first and biggest characteristic for the little lad because his cunning isn’t directed at getting himself ahead (he’s not really ambitious) it’s about righting past wrongs and family unity. I think he’s a Gryffindor or maybe Hufflepuff.
But again, that was rather the whole point of me asking everyone to place an OUAT character: it’s harder than it sounds and should be as equally hard to place Harry and the other students because humans are not static creatures with only one set of traits for their whole lives. We are creatures who react to stimuli based on traits, past history, and our own internal workings.
(ok, here endth my own personal problems with the Sorting Hat)
No worries. It certainly is harder to place some characters than others. I found August to be quite hard to place because he just doesn’t seem to fit the criteria that the houses are looking for. The reason I gave for putting him in Ravenclaw was literally because he didn’t seem to fit the other houses.
I can see why you’d put Belle in Ravenclaw, and in the majority of Harry Potter/RumBelle fanfics she is placed in that house because of being smart, however I placed her in Gryffindor because I could see the comparison to Neville Longbottom in that both had the courage to stand up to someone they care about even though it would’ve been easier not to.
Ambition I think is a double edged sword. It can have positive connotations eg a child wanting to be a (insert job) when they grow up, it gives something to strive for. However, it can also have negative connotations eg being dissatisfied with what you have and wanting more than what you’ve got. There is also a sense of ruthlessness associated with ambition eg “getting ahead of others”. When there’s only one job opening but four applicants, each one wants to prove they’re better than the others to get what they want.
On the surface, Henry doesn’t come across as ruthless so it seems odd to place him in Slytherin. However, the fact that he used his dead dad to emotionally manipulate Rumple into agreeing to let him work as an apprentice so Henry could snoop around the shop for Operation Mongoose which had nothing to do with Rumple seems a bit…..ruthless? It certainly came across that Henry didn’t care about actually spending time with Rumple and that it was all a ruse for the mission.
When I sorted the characters into the houses, I did it individually as in I didn’t go person a is in that house so person b should be there too, it was on a per character basis. Interestingly, Henry ended up in Slytherin with four of his family members, three of whom are related to each other: Regina, Cora and Zelena. The fact that you have three generations in one house suggests that certain traits are passed on and a parents can rub off on their child. It’s the old fashioned nature vs nurture debate. Henry’s blood relatives are dispersed amongst the other houses yet it seems Henry has somewhat followed after Regina, the woman who raised and nurtured him but is not blood related. I’m not saying Henry is going to go evil but he’s certainly not above resorting underhanded tactics.
I’m wondering whether I should create a thread for this particular aspect of Once characters and which houses they would be in. It’s an interesting subject and one that could be discussed at great length but I don’t want to derail this particular thread.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix’m wondering whether I should create a thread for this particular aspect of Once characters and which houses they would be in. It’s an interesting subject and one that could be discussed at great length but I don’t want to derail this particular thread.
Hunt around the General Discussion area. We had one like…a year ago? And thanks…Jo is going to be posting shortly, I do believe so new chapter coming up!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Chapter 8: The Potion’s Master
Summary:
With the sorting completed, the students at Hogwarts are thrown into classes the very next day. Harry is a bit celebrity among students. While he is concentrating on just finding his classes, they are concentrated on him. It takes he and Ron a week to finally not get lost in the vast castle. Moving stairs, strange passageways, and Peeves make navigating the school difficult.
Despite being scared that he would be way behind the other students, Harry is relieved to realize that he is no farther behind than any other students. He soon finds out there is more to magic than waving his wand around. He studies the planets at midnight in a tower, has Herbology in a greenhouse, and an extremely boring ghost for a professor in History of Magic. Charms is taught by a tiny wizard who has to stand on books, while he has Transfiguration with his strict head-of-house, Professor McGonagall.
The last class of the week was the one most students counted as their least favorite, Potions. Head of Slytherin House, Professor Snape was know to favor his own students while terrifying most others. He begins class by taking role, singling out Harry as a “celebrity” when he reaches his name. He then lectures on the delicacy and complexness of Potion making then immediately starts throwing questions at Harry. When Harry admits to not knowing any of the answers, Snape deducts a point. When they later begin brewing a potion, Harry is deducted yet another point when his neighbor’s cauldron is melted from a mishap. Snape blames Harry for not helping, despite not knowing anymore, himself. Harry is upset that he lost two points in one class and wonders why Snape hates him so much, but Ron tries to convince him that Snape just hates everyone.
With the afternoon free after Potions, Harry and Ron visit Hagrid at his hut for the first time. Hagrid’s massive boarhound greets them but is more baby than beast. Harry introduces Hagrid to Ron, who immediately recognizes him as a Weasley. They talk about their week but when Harry describes how much Snape appears to hate him, Hagrid unsuccessfully tries to reassure Harry that Snape has no reason to and quickly changes the subject back to Ron’s family. It’s then that Harry notices a newspaper clipping on the table about a break in at Gringotts. Reading the article, Harry realizes it happened the same day he was there with Hagrid. He mentioned it to Hagrid, who grunts and offers him another rock cake. Harry, though, begins to piece things together and suspects that the vault that had the attempted break-in was also the one Hagrid had emptied earlier in the day.
Analysis:
Ordinary vs. Extraordinary
This first look into the classes of Hogwarts on the surface appears surreal to the reader. We can’t transfigure one object into another or cast charms, but in the world of Harry Potter those things are possible and expected. We soon realize, though, that classes at Hogwarts aren’t all that dissimilar from reality. Once again, Rowling takes the time to parallel the experiences between the magical and the mundane. Hogwarts students might not have science, but they do study astronomy and potion making. Their history might not be about Muggle events but it’s still full of boring events and dry facts that most kids aren’t interested in learning. And finding your classes and adjusting to new teachers is an issue for everyone.This dichotomy applies to Harry, himself. While Harry is treated like a celebrity by the other students it soon becomes apparent that he is as much an ordinary student as anyone else. He has no hidden insight or extraordinary abilities than any of his peers and finds classes more complicated than he’d first imagined.
“There was a lot more to magic, as Harry quickly found out, than waving your wand and saying a few funny words.”
–SS, p. 133
Harry is really no different than any other students, other than the fact that everyone knew his name.
The Potion Master
Professor Snape has issues with Harry Potter. If we learn nothing else, this becomes readily apparent by the end of this chapter. We are introduced to a variety of teachers at Hogwarts but here we are finally introduced to the one Professor who is the most talked about, dissected, and criticized of the Harry Potter Universe. It started with roll call and went downhill from there:
“Ah, yes,” he said softly, “Harry Potter. Our new–celebrity.”
–SS, p. 136
We are told that Snape favors his own house and we see evidence of this in the very first lesson. He asks questions repeatedly of Harry, ignoring Hermione’s hand in the air, and then takes a house point away when Harry admits to not knowing. He then showers praise on Malfoy for just stirring a cauldron later on when they are brewing their first potion. But it’s when Neville breaks out in boils and is sent to the hospital wing, that Harry gets once again punished. This time for not warning the other table that they’re making their potion wrong, despite Harry just learning himself and having nothing to do either student. All these actions are unfair but brushed off because everyone knows Snape dislikes all students who are not Slytherin.
Snape in some ways isn’t all the different than many teachers we encounter in our academic careers. We’ve all had that one professor or teacher who disliked us no matter how hard we performed. Through no fault of our own we are prejudged and evaluated on conditions out of our hands. It happens in the real world, too. As an educator, I find his methodologies and teaching style unacceptable, an opinion I retained throughout the series despite the revelations that happen in the end.. No matter what you’re opinion, though, it can’t be argued that Severus Snape isn’t a complex, purplexing character.
The Mystery Builds
Harry is intrigued and if there is one thing we learn quickly about this boy wizard is once he gets on an idea he’s like a dog with a bone, unable to let go. It started with a small box, the lone contents of a vault at Gringotts that Hagrid had removed for Professor Dumbledore. The mystery deepens after a visit to Hagrid’s where Harry spies a newspaper article about the Gringotts break-in being the same day he was there. He begins to piece together information and suspects the perpetrators were after whatever Hagrid removed that same day. Questioning Hagrid does nothing and his interest only seems to grow.
Foreshadowing
–Snape’s treatment of Harry
–The mysterious box and even more mysterious contents
Discussion Questions
1. Why is Harry is so interested in the box Hagrid removed from Gringotts?
2. Do you feel, from what we know so far, that Professor Snape is an effective teacher?
Bonus fluff question:
3. What would be your favorite subject at Hogwarts (in First Year)?
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
There’s some very interesting possible foreshadowing in this chapter, and its somewhat well known among Harry Potter fans. Snape asks Harry the following:
“Potter, what would I get if I added powdered root of asphodel to an infusion of wormwood?”
According to the Victorian language of flowers, asphodel is a type of lily, which means “my regrets follow you to the grave.” Wormwood means “absence” and symbolizes bitter sorrow. Snape was in love with Harry’s mother, Lily, and feels guilty for her demise. So, the possible hidden meaning to Snape’s question could very well mean “I bitterly regret Lily’s death.” Snape’s secret love for Lily was planned by Rowling for a very long time, so this wouldn’t surprise me if this was intentional. In fact, it’s well known that Rowling told Snape’s secret to Alan Rickman way back when he first started playing Snape in the films, and he took advantage of that knowledge in regards to his performance.
Thanks for the analysis Jo! Nothing like a good ol’ slice of life chapter, eh? I’ll admit, this is one of the reasons I find it hard to go back and re-read the very earliest books. While I like really digging in and hunting for themes, symbols, motifs, or what have you, the first book can often feel like it’s moving slowly because JKR did have to build her world from scratch. She couldn’t just throw Harry (and us) into the cosmic side of things until we’ve explored the new magical world, which can often mean sitting through potions lectures.
However, there is something to JKR’s writing that is so…charming might be a good word here. Like Harry, we’re enchanted with Hogwarts and its moving staircases, suits of armor that can move, pictures that talk, and even Poltergeists that act like little menaces. World building can be painstaking at time–@Josephine and I both tend to agree that reading Tolkien can feel like a chore because of the amount of time he will spend describing one thing (world class mythologist, sometimes a little too concerned with details) but JKR makes you want to be in her world because of how well she crafted it. She doesn’t spend an inordinate amount of time describing each and every little thing, but what she does hammer out are the ways in which this world (the Hogwarts world) is so totally different from ours. Like Ron trying to prod Dean Thomas’s poster into moving or a staircase that decides it wants to go left instead of right because they are apparently independent thinkers (speaking of, should we ponder the fact that wizards can create “life” with the ability to think and act?)
Once again, Rowling takes the time to parallel the experiences between the magical and the mundane. Hogwarts students might not have science, but they do study astronomy and potion making.
Yes good point. Also every student starts at point A. We don’t expect students to know Calculus on their first day of high school–we start with the “softer” math like algebra or geometry. Before you can walk you must crawl, and all that. The difference between what Harry’s experience in the mundane world vs in the magical is the type of things he’s learning, but the root of it–slowly, steadily, brick by brick–is there.
Harry is really no different than any other students, other than the fact that everyone knew his name.
And thank goodness. One of the most annoying tropes and cliches in literature is the boy wonder who is both hero and “the smartest of them all.” All the qualities you can put on a character, some authors will actually put on a character. So they’ll be smarter than your average bear, have some sort of heroes journey and all that, and be compassionate, brave, understanding and loyal. It’s unbelievably annoying. For example, while I adore Patrick Rothfuss’s “Kingkiller Chronicles” because the man is a first rate mythologist and storyteller, his main character Kvothe is “the best at all the things” and it gets rather hard to root for him about halfway through because you know–YOU KNOW–he’s going to figure a way out of whatever situation he’s in.
If Harry was all of the things, then you wouldn’t need the triumvirate of Ron and Hermione Harry.
We are introduced to a variety of teachers at Hogwarts but here we are finally introduced to the one Professor who is the most talked about, dissected, and criticized of the Harry Potter Universe. It started with roll call and went downhill from there:
Snape, for me, is one of JKR’s biggest trope breakers. He’s look exactly like how a villain should look. He’s greasy, smarmy, sly, mean spirited, cunning, hateful, and literally dressed in all black. He’s “black hat” through and through.
Except. Oh…except. The fact that most of the HP fandom really loves Snape and doesn’t hate him in spite of the fact that he really is all those negative things–greasy, smarmy, sly, mean spirited, cunning, hateful, and dressed in all black–shows the power of JKR’s writing and her ability to turn the tables on what you expect to happen.
1. Why is Harry is so interested in the box Hagrid removed from Gringotts?
I think it has a lot to do with just being a curious kid. He’s never been allowed to explore his old world, being mostly locked up and kept out of sight. This is a world where he is encouraged to grow and think, to question the unexplained.
2. Do you feel, from what we know so far, that Professor Snape is an effective teacher?
NO.
Okay, I love Snape. I really do. But he is a horrible teacher. HORRIBLE. There is favoritism and then there is Snape level of favoritism. A boy gets injured in his class in this chapter and Snape acts like it’s not his fault at all. Potions is dangerous, yes, but there should be measures in place by the professor to try and prevent them. In this chapter we see him bully a student. There is being strong willed and trying to get the best from your students (like McGonagall does) but Snape is just a bully to Harry in this chapter, and really to anyone not a Slytherin.
even when he lands his dream job at long last,he’s a bad teacher.
3. What would be your favorite subject at Hogwarts (in First Year)?
Charms, I think. I always thought I’d be a Charm sort of girl. No clue why….
@Matt nice find!
Speaking of some Victorian references, we meet Mrs Norris in this chapter, Filch’s cat. She’s named after the same character in Mansfield Park by Jane Austen. The cat and the lady share similar characteristics.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
The topic ‘Harry Potter Reread: Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone’ is closed to new replies.