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Excellent write-up RG!
1) Had Dumbledore not been called to the Ministry and had Harry, Ron and Hermione managed to talk to the Headmaster, what would he have done?
I don’t think Dumbledore would’ve done anything, because I think Dumbledore invented a reason not to be at Hogwarts. His call to the Ministry of Magic may have been fabricated in order to let Harry take action for himself. Dumbledore is the one who led Harry to seek out the Philosopher’s Stone by leaving him clues such as the mirror and the invisibility cloak. So, it’s safe to assume Dumbledore meant for Harry to try and seize the stone first before Voldemort could. I think Dumbledore, being wise and somewhat conniving, has been secretly preparing Harry to face his parents’ murderer face to face for the first time, testing Harry to see how he’d rise to the occasion. And Harry certainly does just that.
2) How much is Hagrid to blame for what is going on with Voldemort and the Stone?
Hagrid is largely to blame, because evidently he cannot hold his liquor, despite his gigantic size. Also, Hagrid has one big weakness: a big heart when it comes to dangerous creatures (Hagrid calling himself Norbert’s “mommy” points to that). Whoever gave Hagrid the dragon egg had knowledge of Hagrid’s weakness and used that piece of information to discover how to slip past Fluffy. As we’ll see in book 2, Hagrid’s fondness of dangerous creatures got him into trouble with Voldemort before.
3) Maybe you are familiar with other descents into the underworld other than the ones I mentioned above. Even if not, how do you compare Harry’s journey to the underworld with those you know of? What do you make of the katabasis as part of the hero’s journey?
Well, katabasis is the point when the hero must be tested and not be found wanting. It’s the point when the protagonist chooses either to act heroically or selfishly. Usually, a self-sacrifice must be made for the greater good and/or to save others. It’s the point on which all other points in the story hang.
The first big story is that of Jesus Christ. He faces Satan in the wilderness. Jesus pleads with God in the Garden of Gasthemene to let his cup pass from him. According to the Bible, Jesus voluntarily dies on the Cross, vanquishes sin and returns to life. In some versions, Jesus even descends to the dead (i.e. hell) to overcome death and rise again in heavenly glory. The story certainly fits with Harry’s savior status and trajectory in book 7. Harry is a suffering, sacrificial lamb figure.
The next story that springs to mind is Emma Swan becoming the Dark One and literally descending into a vault of black tar. We’ve yet to see how that story plays out, but it’s pretty safe to assume she’ll conquer evil and vanquish the dark one curse once and for all. That seems pretty similar to what we know happens to Harry in book 7, and even as early as book 1, when Harry comes face to face with his parents’ killer for the first time. Maternal true love protects Harry, much as Emma’s status as True Love personified may protect her. Harry and Emma are both “the chosen ones” of their respective stories.
Next, there’s Gandalf the Grey falling with the balrog in the mines and coming back as Gandalf the White. His transformation from dark to light happens when he looks evil in the eye (i.e. the balrog) and triumphs over it. So, that’s pretty similar to Harry facing Voldemort for the first time (and repeatedly thereafter).
[adrotate group="5"]"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
So, it’s safe to assume Dumbledore meant for Harry to try and seize the stone first before Voldemort could. I think Dumbledore, being wise and somewhat conniving, has been secretly preparing Harry to face his parents’ murderer face to face for the first time, testing Harry to see how he’d rise to the occasion. And Harry certainly does just that.
I think that is absolutely correct. I have no doubt that Dumbledore is “gone” for the exact reasons you gave. I’m really torn about this. On the one hand, Harry has to go through a trail by fire. Dumbledore can’t be there to hold his hand for fight Voldemort for Harry; after all Dumbledore isn’t the Hero in this tale, just the Wise Old Wizard. But, on the other hand, there is something to be said about sending an 11 year old boy with only rudimentary magical ability into the lion’s den. Dumbledore has a habit of needing Harry to know something, or gain some measure of experience and wisdom, but does so by placing him in dangerous situations. He needs Harry to realize that Voldemort is killing the unicorns and trying to get the Stone, so he (probably) arranged for Harry to have detention in the Forbidden Forest. He needs Harry to face Voldemort by himself so he leaves Hogwarts in order for *ahem* to sneak down to what waits below. Before it sounds like I’m giving Dumbledore a lot of flack, this is pretty common among the Hero and his Mentor. The Mentor cannot fight the battles for the Hero, he simply prepares the Hero as best he can. If Obi Wan or Yoda could take out Darth Vader/The Emperor then they would, but they are not the ones tasked with that, only Luke. Giles cannot stop the vampires and the evil, only assist Buffy in giving her as much knowledge as possible. Heroes are always going to be in super dangerous situations. The hope is that they’ve learned enough, and have enough fortitude to get through it.
The first big story is that of Jesus Christ.
Yup that’s the big one.
The next story that springs to mind is Emma Swan becoming the Dark One and literally descending into a vault of black tar. We’ve yet to see how that story plays out, but it’s pretty safe to assume she’ll conquer evil and vanquish the dark one curse once and for all.
And like Harry, Emma’s katabasis isn’t really a literal descent into a literal underworld. It’s going to be much more metaphorical.
Next, there’s Gandalf the Grey falling with the balrog in the mines and coming back as Gandalf the White. His transformation from dark to light out to be a BIG clue that he’s literally looked evil in the eye (i.e. the balrog) and triumphs over it. So, that’s pretty similar to Harry facing Voldemort for the first time (and repeatedly thereafter).
Gandalf is an interesting one because, like Dumbledore, he’s the Mentor/Wise Old Wizard and not the Hero of the story, yet he clearly goes through a trial by fire with the Balrog. His “death” and resurrection have more to do with the fact that he’s an Ishtari/Maiar rather than a mortal who perished but he does have the transition to “white” which is obviously indicative of a metamorphosis which the hero goes through during a Katabasis.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"“The Devil’s Snare” being the first obstacle also ties into the Underworld/Hell comparisons to the Forbidden Corridor.
Announcement!
Just wanted to touch on the upcoming schedule because–believe it or not–we’re about to finish the first book!
The upcoming days look like this:
Wednesday Sept 23–Chapter 17 (The Man With Two Faces), posted by @Josephine
Sunday Sept 27–Harry Potter Book 1 Retrospective, posted by @RumplesGirl
From there RG will open the new thread for book 2 on Tuesday because we know that with OUAT coming back on that Sunday, attention will be elsewhere. @RunAroundMacy will post Chapter 1 of CoS on Wednesday! If you are interested in doing a chapter (or more) message @RumplesGirl and she’ll figure out a schedule.
We want to thank everyone who has been jumping in with ideas and comments. 🙂 And remember, if you’ve been lurking, feel free to add your thoughts.
<3 RG, Jo, and Macy
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"4) Which “test” in the underworld would be the easiest for you? The hardest? And which one of the ones we see with the trio do you find the most impressive?
Yeah, I totes would have died in the Devil’s Snare. It’s so creepy, like worms crawling all over you. Yeah, I think i’d have punched my number right there, surprisingly. The easiest would have been the flying, I think I could have gotten that after awhile. The hardest, probably the chess would be the hardest. I…literally no nothing of chess (it’s basically high class checkers right? RIGHT? Someone tell me I’m right >>)
The most impressive though was the potion escapade. Again, I totes would have died. Hermione truly is the brightest witch of her age.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICHogwarts would so fail and Ofsted inspection what with the amount of student endangering that happens. The school would be closed down.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixHogwarts would so fail and Ofsted inspection what with the amount of student endangering that happens. The school would be closed down.
lol in our non fictional world, yes. But I wonder if parents just expect a certain level of danger when their children get shipped off to Hogwarts. I mean, they all went through it (if they are magical, at least) and don’t seem to think it any great thing to send their children there. Most are proud to say that their kids are following in their footsteps. I suspect that most parents know that magic is dangerous but that their children need to learn it somehow.
of course that’s all going to change in a few books when parents do start pulling kids out of school following the Triwizard Tournament
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"of course that’s all going to change in a few books when parents do start pulling kids out of school following the Triwizard Tournament
And of course the Ministry of Magic itself will start to intervene via instating Umbridge to change the rules of the school and forbid students from learning to use defensive spells.
I will have the analysis posted today but thought to respond to RG’s questions.
1) Had Dumbledore not been called to the Ministry and had Harry, Ron and Hermione managed to talk to the Headmaster, what would he have done?
Like everyone else said, Dumbledore engineered himself gone. We know that he had to be absent to spur Harry on the journey set out for him. If by chance he has been at the castle, he would have made himself unavailable to the trio, therefore, creating the same results. They go after the Stone themselves.
2) How much is Hagrid to blame for what is going on with Voldemort and the Stone?
Hagrid has exhibits a high degree of negligence, and will continue to do so throughout the book, but I don’t blame him or for Voldemort’s return. Voldemort has manipulated, intimidated, mesmerized people for decades. Hagrid is more susceptible than others. Does this excuse him? No, but it allows me to forgive his behavior in face of his faithfulness and love of Harry and Dumbledore.
3) Maybe you are familiar with other descents into the underworld other than the ones I mentioned above. Even if not, how do you compare Harry’s journey to the underworld with those you know of? What do you make of the katabasis as part of the hero’s journey?
Like Slurpeez, the one I immediately thought of was Jesus.
4) Which “test” in the underworld would be the easiest for you? The hardest? And which one of the ones we see with the trio do you find the most impressive?
If it wasn’t an issue of life and death and drinking poison, then I’d say Hermione’s task. But I would need paper, drawing diagrams, notes, etc. I do know how to play chess (Sorry, Watcher, it’s nothing like checkers) and I am not the best player at all. I’m more like Hermione than Ron. I’d have freaked at the Devil’s Snare and I’m deathly afraid of heights so the keys would not be my ideal. So in conclusion, I’d have given up immediately. 😉
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
Yeah Jesus is the big one, at least in our western culture since Christianity and the Christian mythos holds so much sway. A few others that are all older than Christianity. (well, except the last one…)
–Osiris. Murdered by Set and his body scattered out over the world. He went to the Underworld until his sister/wife Isis put his body back together (literally) with a rather…uh…fun exception. The gods were so impressed that they resurrected Osiris and declared him the god of the Underworld (apotheosis).
–Orpheus who went down to the Underworld to save his love Eurydice. (this did not go well…)
–Eastern traditions are not my specialty so I don’t have much there, but the Hindu stories have Yudhisthira who went down into hell to see his brothers.
–I’m fairly certain Odin descended once, maybe after he hung himself from Yggrdrasil?
–Less literal than an actual underworld, Buffy’s journey down to meet the Master in S1 is an katabasis (and ‘lo, she doth die and is reborn…)
So in conclusion, I’d have given up immediately. ?
Excellent. At least you’re honest!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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