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Just a general point here but….
Let’s *try* not to focus the discussion on huge plot points that are much further ahead. I know it’s tempting since all of us have read this series loads, but really vital, mythos changing stuff is probably best left vaguely alluded to instead of stated outright, even with spoiler tags just because this is a huge series and the point of the re-read is take it one chapter, one book at a time. That’s the difference between a re-read project and just discussing the series in a general manner.
(not pointing any fingers or saying that we’re all not to blame…but just to bring it back to HP:SS)
Is Harry’s magical ability really latent? It seems pretty early to me, or at least, right on schedule? For the first ten years of his life, he’s been showing weird signs. He can make his hair re-grow at will, shrink clothes he doesn’t like, or even disappear and reappear on top of his school. That sounds like pretty strong magic for a boy who doesn’t even suspect he could really be a wizard yet.
Perhaps instead of latent we should say unexplored. Most wizarding children Harry’s age would have grown up knowing that they were from a magical family and so the sudden weird things they could do would be understood as magic and would be encouraged or at least celebrated.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"One of the definitions for latent is “hidden: present or existing, but in an underdeveloped or unexpressed form”. So yes, according to that definition, Harry’s powers are latent. They’re present but he doesn’t know how to use them and they’re not developed. And he doesn’t even know that he has powers.
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
One of the definitions for latent is “hidden: present or existing, but in an underdeveloped or unexpressed form”. So yes, according to that definition, Harry’s powers are latent. They’re present but he doesn’t know how to use them and they’re not developed. And he doesn’t even know that he has powers.
For all the weird things Harry has had happen during times of emotional stress, it seems as though he’s never actively tried to make anything happen. Like, he’s never tried to recreate the moment of oddness after the fact.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"There is a lot of foreshadowing in the books though, so it’s kind of difficult not to discuss future events. You can discuss what appears to be going on with just the evidence in the present chapters but then it takes on a whole new dynamic when allied with evidence from future chapters. Something in the present chapters foreshadows events in the future chapters so can we talk about how something in a present chapter sets up something in a future chapter?
I think Harry never questioned the strange things happening because he’s relieved that they’ve occurred and there is a sense of “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”. For example, when Petunia cuts off all of Harry’s hair leaving only the fringe, Harry is dreading having to go to school because it will only make him more of a target. Harry’s hair grows back overnight. Harry isn’t going to question why it grew back so quickly, he’s just glad it has grown back. The same could be said for the other instances. Harry didn’t question why the snake could understand because that was the first being he probably encountered that he could talk to about how he felt.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixThere is a lot of foreshadowing in the books though, so it’s kind of difficult not to discuss future events. You can discuss what appears to be going on with just the evidence in the present chapters but then it takes on a whole new dynamic when allied with evidence from future chapters. Something in the present chapters foreshadows events in the future chapters so can we talk about how something in a present chapter sets up something in a future chapter?
There is a reason why each chapter analysis has a “potential foreshadowing” section. We fully recognize that this series hints at a lot of things before stating it outright. Some minor discussion of future events is okay. But really big “here’s why this happened and how it impacts the series as a whole” not so much. In other words, discussing the show’s mythos and how its explained in future books shouldn’t be happening. That’s just talking about the series generally which isn’t the point of a re-read where you read each chapter, very slowly,and discuss it in its own right without thinking too much about how it will impact the story 6 books from now.
Again, very brief conversation about stuff in the future. But on the whole, for a re-read to successful you have to keep it focused on the bits at hand. In future, I’ll make the rules a bit more clear in this regard but there shouldn’t be any confusion now.
I think Harry never questioned the strange things happening because he’s relieved that they’ve occurred and there is a sense of “don’t look a gift horse in the mouth”. For example, when Petunia cuts off all of Harry’s hair leaving only the fringe, Harry is dreading having to go to school because it will only make him more of a target. Harry’s hair grows back overnight. Harry isn’t going to question why it grew back so quickly, he’s just glad it has grown back. The same could be said for the other instances. Harry didn’t question why the snake could understand because that was the first being he probably encountered that he could talk to about how he felt.
Well I think that’s true too; he clearly wouldn’t want to suffer any further embarrassment that would have come from the various choices the Dursley’s were making with the express intent of causing him embarrassment or shame. But it also goes back to what we’ve seen so far–Harry’s self confidence and self esteem are appallingly low. He doesn’t question it because it would be examining his inner self and trying to figure out if there is something different or strange about himself and Harry has a tendency to view himself as utterly unimportant because that’s how the Dursley’s have treated him. That’s why the letters mean so much.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"We’ve been discussing the Dursley’s at length and I think this might be a good time to bring up something that was revealed on Pottermore, namely the relationship between Petunia and Vernon and their relationship with the Potter’s. As I’ll be posting Ch 4 analysis here in the next 24 hours, I thought this section of text from Pottermore was relevant as we move into the next stage of Harry Potter, namely Harry’s entrance into the magical world.
PLEASE NOTE: I have removed about 2 paragraphs just because it goes into the larger mythos of the story which, as noted, we are trying to avoid as we focus solely on a chapter by chapter analysis with only brief hints or minor discussions of what is to come. You can read the full thing at the link below (the X)
“Harry’s aunt and uncle met at work. Petunia Evans, forever embittered by the fact that her parents seemed to value her witch sister more than they valued her, left Cokeworth forever to pursue a typing course in London. This led to an office job, where she met the extremely unmagical, opinionated and materialistic Vernon Dursley. Large and neckless, this junior executive seemed a model of manliness to young Petunia. He not only returned her romantic interest, but was deliciously normal. He had a perfectly correct car, and wanted to do completely ordinary things, and by the time he had taken her on a series of dull dates, during which he talked mainly about himself and his predictable ideas on the world, Petunia was dreaming of the moment when he would place a ring on her finger.
“When, in due course, Vernon Dursley proposed marriage, very correctly, on one knee in his mother’s sitting room, Petunia accepted at once. The one fly in her delicious ointment was the fear of what her new fiancé would make of her sister, who was now in her final year at Hogwarts School of Witchcraft and Wizardry. Vernon was apt to despise even people who wore brown shoes with black suits; what he would make of a young woman who spent most of her time wearing long robes and casting spells, Petunia could hardly bear to think.
“She confessed the truth during a tear-stained date, in Vernon’s dark car as they sat overlooking the chip shop where Vernon had just bought them a post-cinema snack. Vernon, as Petunia had expected, was deeply shocked; however, he told Petunia solemnly that he would never hold it against her that she had a freak for a sister, and Petunia threw herself upon him in such violent gratitude that he dropped his battered sausage.
“The first meeting between Lily, her boyfriend James Potter, and the engaged couple, went badly, and the relationship nose-dived from there. James was amused by Vernon, and made the mistake of showing it. Vernon tried to patronise James, asking what car he drove. James described his racing broom. Vernon supposed out loud that wizards had to live on unemployment benefit. James explained about Gringotts, and the fortune his parents had saved there, in solid gold. Vernon could not tell whether he was being made fun of or not, and grew angry. The evening ended with Vernon and Petunia storming out of the restaurant, while Lily burst into tears and James (a little ashamed of himself) promised to make things up with Vernon at the earliest opportunity.
“This never happened. Petunia did not want Lily as a bridesmaid, because she was tired of being overshadowed; Lily was hurt. Vernon refused to speak to James at the reception, but described him, within James’ earshot, as ‘some kind of amateur magician’. Once married, Petunia grew ever more like Vernon. She loved their neat square house at number four, Privet Drive. She was secure, now, from objects that behaved strangely, from teapots that suddenly piped tunes as she passed, or long conversations about things she did not understand, with names like ‘Quidditch’ and ‘Transfiguration’. She and Vernon chose not to attend Lily and James’ wedding. The very last piece of correspondence she received from Lily and James was the announcement of Harry’s birth, and after one contemptuous look, Petunia threw it in the bin.
“Prior to Harry’s arrival, Petunia had become, if anything, the more determined of the Dursleys in suppressing all talk about her sister. Petunia had some latent feelings of guilt about the way she had cut Lily (whom she knew, in her secret heart, had always loved her) out of her life, but these were buried under considerable jealousy and bitterness. Petunia had also buried deep inside her (and never confessed to Vernon) her long ago hope that she, too, would show signs of magic, and be spirited off to Hogwarts.
“Their lies to Harry on the subject of how his parents had died were based largely on their own fears. A Dark wizard as powerful as Lord Voldemort frightened them too much to contemplate, and like every subject they found disturbing or distasteful, they pushed it to the back of their minds and maintained the ‘died-in-a-car-crash’ story so consistently that they almost managed to persuade themselves it was true.
“Even though Petunia was raised alongside a witch, she is remarkably ignorant about magic. She and Vernon share a confused idea that they will somehow be able to squash the magic out of Harry, and in an attempt to throw off the letters that arrive from Hogwarts on Harry’s eleventh birthday, she and Vernon fall back on the old superstition that witches cannot cross water. As she had frequently seen Lily jump streams and run across stepping stones in their childhood, she ought not to have been surprised when Hagrid had no difficulty making his way over the stormy sea to the hut on the rock.”
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Part of the fun for me is being able to discuss the entire series, as long as the points being made are relevant to the chapter being discussed. I think we should be able to discuss future events and how they relate to the series as a whole, provided we put spoilers in spoiler tags (that is their purpose after all). So, I’ll try to make more relevant remarks and comments about the current chapter, but I’ll put my thoughts about future events in spoiler boxes. Simply skip over the black boxes if you don’t want to read about future events/books.
In reply to chapter three…
We learn that Harry has been help prisoner under the stairs for several weeks and that he isn’t released until after the school term is over. Wouldn’t the British authorities investigate Harry’s prolonged absence of school? In the United States, having more than 3 unexcused days from school is a criminal offense called truancy, which applies to students and extends especially to their guardians and parents. Guardians and parents found to be guilty of keeping their children from deliberately attending school (without a proper medical excuse or proper homeschooling curriculum) can be fined and sent to jail if. So why aren’t the teachers, head master, and/or school counselors from Harry’s school concerned or at least suspicious when Harry doesn’t show up at school for weeks on end? Are we, the readers, supposed to buy that the officials at Harry’s school believe Harry is gravely ill, bedridden or in hospital?
No one can deny anymore that something “magical” is happening here, even if Harry hasn’t quite figured it out himself.
Exactly. How could Harry not suspect something supernatural was going on when letters continued to show up in mysterious ways? It’s odd enough when a letter shows up for the first time addressed to a Mr. H. Potter, the Cupboard under the Stairs. First of all, wouldn’t Harry be curious that the sender seems to know which room he lives in? Second of all, wouldn’t his suspicion that something magical is going on be heightened when the sender keeps changing the address, according to Harry’s change of room or physical location. Thirdly, wouldn’t Harry’s suspicion that magic actually exists be confirmed when he was witnesses the letters shooting out of the chimney or showing up in the morning eggs?
Next, I want to further comment on an observation previously made, but which was really underscored in chapter three. In response to receiving the first letter addressed to Harry, Petunia and Vernon are astonished and afraid that the wizards at Hogwarts know of Harry living under the stairs. Harry is then promptly removed from his cupboard to Dudley’s second bedroom. Presumably, Petunia and Vernon are frightened silly of being punished by the wizard community for the neglect and mistreatment of their nephew. Even the realization that they are being caught in the act, so to speak, without any threat being made, is enough to alleviate the mistreatment of Harry somewhat. But then that again raises the question of why it took nearly 11 years for any of the wizards to challenge the Dursleys’ neglect of their young nephew. As we saw in chapter 3, even the mere knowledge that they are being watched by the magical community is enough for them to change their treatment of Harry somewhat for the better (i.e. Harry gets Dudley’s smaller bedroom). After all, fear is a powerful motivator.
There are more examples of the abuse and neglect that Harry has been subjected to for the past ten years. Dudley is taken shopping for brand new uniforms for the private school he will be attending in the fall, and Harry is given some of Dudley’s old clothes that Petunia will dye gray for his uniform. We know from future chapters that Petunia is a neat freak, and that she often stayed up until after midnight cleaning the kitchen. Surely, it would have been easier to just buy Harry new clothes, rather than dying old clothes for his uniform? It was mentioned numerous times how awful it smelled, offending everyone in the family. For me this, solidifies the fact that Petunia went out of her way to make Harry miserable, when it would have been in everyone’s best interest to just buy him some cheap clothes. We also find out that there has been an extra bedroom in the house these last 10 years, filled with Dudleys broken and unwanted toys, and books that have never been opened. (What’s more astounding, is that as of right now, we really have no motivation for the why the Dursleys treat Harry this way, other than that he is “different”.)
Finally, I agree that Aunt Petunia really goes out of her way to make her nephew’s life miserable. Not only does she merely overlook him, but she really treats him unkindly and goes out of her way to intentionally humiliate him, as exemplified by making him wear smelly, oversized hand-me-downs. It’s not as if the Dursleys are hard up for cash either, and therefore unable to afford a new school uniform or a pair of new glasses for Harry. Petunia goes out of her way to spoil and to shower her simple-minded, cranky, and rather untalented son Dudley, while she intentionally shuns, deprives and puts Harry in his place. It’s as though Petunia’s loathing of her magical sister is being taken out on Lily’s son. Petunia’s mistreatment and abuse of Harry is complex, and is further discussed in the books to come. (I’m putting spoilers in spoiler boxes down below. Feel free to skip).
Finally, in reply to the discussion points…
Who do you think is sending the letters, and how do they know where Henry is at all times?
Obviously, someone magical.
Why do you think the Dursleys won’t let Harry read the letters?
Well, they don’t want their special nephew to know he’s special. However, I think the motivation is different for Vernon than it is for his wife, Petunia. Vernon is just your typical, close-minded muggle. Petunia, however, is more complex, since it’s clear she had a hateful relationship with her rather extraordinary sister. However, to analyze her, I’ll have to put my thoughts in spoilers.
Petunia’s rejection of all things magical is actually a secret and deeply embedded longing to be a witch herself. As a little girl, Petunia felt rejected by the magical world, and in direct consequence, she psychologically feels inferior — which explains her hatred of the supernatural. As we later learn, Petunia probably was green with envy when her talented sister Lily got her letter from Hogwarts — and probably the admiration of Lily and Petunia’s parents. Petunia’s rejection by the wizards means she has learned to hate and to reject magic in turn, including her magical nephew, who exhibits the same early magical signs her sister Lily probably did. That explains why Petunia rejects her nephew’s magical talent in favor of her unremarkable, non-praiseworthy and untalented bully of a son, Dudley. Petunia probably prizes the ordinary, because she herself has a psychological need to feel that ordinary muggles can also be exceptional. Neither she, nor her unexceptional son, can ever hope to be part of Hogwarts the way Lily was, and so as punishment, Petunia seeks to bar her nephew from having access to that world the way she herself was denied access.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Part of the fun for me is being able to discuss the entire series, as long as the points being made are relevant to the chapter being discussed. I think we should be able to discuss future events and how they relate to the series as a whole, provided we put spoilers in spoiler tags (that is their purpose after all).
We were going to do a retrospective at the end of each book and then the series. I get that its fun to discuss the series as a whole, but it’s not the point of a re-read. I mean, doing the whole “here’s why Dumbledore left Harry” is somewhat…frustrating. We all know why. We’ve all read this series many times. We don’t actually need the stuff spoiled out; it’s not like we’re going to ruin the big denouement for anyone. But discussing it here and now isn’t the point. The point would be to look at Dumbledore, knowing what we know (because, again, we all know it) and see what his character is like, to see how Jo built him slowly over the series. We know where we are going and we’ll get to it. The point is to start from the beginning and look carefully at each chapter as it stands on its own. When you first start off reading a series, you don’t discuss the entire thing because you don’t have the entire series. You have to work piecemeal.
Also, conversation is going to be really stifled if people keep posting giant walls of black text only to have other members of the re-read project skip over it because they want to stick with the here and now. Secondly, we’re going to get there and the inpactfulness of those conversations about the larger mythos are going to ring less impactful if we’re having them now. Thirdly, this really stresses our need to analyze and focus on the here and now. If you’re so focused on what’s to come then you jump over tiny things you might have missed because you’re too busy thinking about what is to come. It’s harder, but in a good way.
Please don’t think that this is a criticism of anyone (Slurpeez, as always, your points are totally on track and I agree with them all) or what they want out of this project, but please also understand that Jo, Macy and I did have several conversations about how we wanted this to run. Re-read projects are supposed to be focused on one chapter, one book at a time. You lose a lot if you start going from Book 1 to book 7 to book 3 in the blink of an eye.
So why aren’t the teachers, head master, and/or school counselors from Harry’s school concerned or at least suspicious when Harry doesn’t show up at school for weeks on end? Are we, the readers, supposed to buy that the officials at Harry’s school believe Harry is gravely ill, bedridden or in hospital?
As Matt pointed out, he’s most likely being let out to go to school and then going back to the cupboard the instant he gets home. We know he graduated from his previous school and is moving, which he couldn’t have done if he had missed all those weeks.
Exactly. How could Harry not suspect something supernatural was going on when letters continued to show up in mysterious ways? It’s odd enough when a letter shows up for the first time addressed to a Mr. H. Potter, the Cupboard under the Stairs. First of all, wouldn’t Harry be curious that the sender seems to know which room he lives in? Second of all, wouldn’t his suspicion that something magical is going on be heightened when the sender keeps changing the address, according to Harry’s change of room or physical location. Thirdly, wouldn’t Harry’s suspicion that magic actually exists be confirmed when he was witnesses the letters shooting out of the chimney or showing up in the morning eggs?
I talked about this in the chapter 1 analysis. Humans who exist in this mundane world–which is to say all of us–go to extraordinary lengths to ignore the magical and rationalize it in a way that makes sense to them. They will ignore all the evidence to the magical contrary and try to find a way to make it make sense in terms they can understand. For Harry to suddenly go “I bet magic exists!” when these letters start appearing would fly in the face of how humans rationalize and codify their world. Of course it’s suspicious but no one in our world would jump to “magic!” It’s not how humans operate.
ETA: look at our own mythic hero, Emma Swan. She goes out of her way to ignore what is going on in front of her eyes to the point where she can’t see August turning to wood until the moment when she finally believes in magic, when it is made apparent to her that magic does exist.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I get everyone has his or her own ideas of how to discuss a work of fiction. I’m just frustrated by not being able to discuss general themes that carry over from book to book — even in the appropriate spoiler tags. I’m more of a thematic reader who looks back at previously read details in light of things already known. It’s not that I’m not interested in the details; I’m just not the sort who likes to pretend as though it’s the first time I’m reading a work of fiction after I’ve already read it. In any literary criticism class I’d be the type of student hunting for thematic trends and focusing the author’s intent — as little details carry over across several different chapters, and perhaps even books. I’m not content just to point out possible foreshadowing details. If I’m being honest, I find it equally frustrating feeling like I can’t even make sort of general observations even in spoiler boxes. I vote that we be able to make those sort of grand narrative comments in the black spoiler boxes. If we can’t even discuss the future events in the spoiler tags, then I’m not entirely sure I’m going to be the best contributor to this thread.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Announcement (from Jo, Macy, and RG)
Because time and space are being taken up debating how to run this re-read the three runners of the re-read–Jo, Macy, and myself–have had a long discussion about the questions concerning the above and have made a decision.
First, we want everyone to participate. That’s never been up for debate. We want as many people as we can to talk about and analyze the chapters as we present them. We are fine with the occasional spoiler but we, as a collective whole, feel that that the answers to the larger questions are still best left unanswered so that the readers can come to them organically, slowly, and focusing on their development along the way. We feel as though by having in depth discussions on what is to come, very far down the road, this early in the game is not the point of the re-read and it takes away from re-reading the series with fresh eyes and focusing on how JKR got from point A to point Z. Thematic trends are important to us all, and we’ve been discussing them from the start (along with moral, ethical, religious, and archetypical ones) but jumping the gun and explaining everything isn’t allowing us read the characters as they develop–even with spoiler tags .
Jo, Macy and myself understand that everyone reads differently and understands literature circles/re-read projects differently but in order to get the most out of this that we can, we’d like to stick to the rules we established or else it’s going to get tedious quite fast since, as already stated, every single one of us knows the answers to the questions posed and we understand the characters (quite well), including their ticks, their motivations, and their own psychology. We want to track the development of those characters and their themes as they are presented, line by line, chapter by chapter, book by book.
We also feel that as the three people who are (so far–and again, if you want to do one, then feel free to drop me a line) writing these analyses, it is a disservice to us since we’re taking large portions of our time to read and re-read and take notes and work up analysis for them to be to be somewhat brushed aside and discuss the larger story as a whole when that wasn’t what the three of us intended when we set out to do this.
Again, we want everyone to participate but the rules we designed from the get go need to stay in place in order for this re-read to operate.
Chapter 4 will be posted shortly.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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