Henry…. a product of true love?

[tammythebear]

Lil’ Red: I agree- kudos to those who keep it classy- all the way around…

and

Priceofmagic: I guess my brain automatically subbed “accident” for “mistake”.. while that is my bad for using the wrong word it is the same negative connotation that was used. I agree that Henry was unplanned, but the poster made the use of the word negative by lumping his being an accident into his being a painful reminder (together it seemed pretty negative to me)

I am a total geek :geek: and looked up the definition of accident after I read your post and I found something interesting…

Taken from dictionary.com:
“ac·ci·dent [ak-si-duhnt] noun
1.an undesirable or unfortunate happening that occurs unintentionally and usually results in harm, injury, damage, or loss; casualty; mishap: automobile accidents.
2. Law. such a happening resulting in injury that is in no way the fault of the injured person for which compensation or indemnity is legally sought.
3.any event that happens unexpectedly, without a deliberate plan or cause.
4.chance; fortune; luck: I was there by accident.
5.a fortuitous circumstance, quality, or characteristic: an accident of birth.
6.Philosophy . any entity or event contingent upon the existence of something else.
7. Geology . a surface irregularity, usually on a small scale, the reason for which is not apparent”

I think 3 and 5 could apply to Henry.. maybe even 4 if you chalk his birth up to chance/luck instead of fate/destiny.

And who knows… you may be right and she may not end up with anyone. For a long time I felt the same way about her not ending up with anyone (especially after Graham died). BUT before then you can always sit back and laugh at us silly shippers!

[jolly roger]

@PJSparkles wrote:

@Jolly Roger wrote:

Also the original reason for statutory rape laws was to protect young women, in case they got pregnant and the father won’t help with supporting the child and mother. But due to changing society, the purpose is kinda different now. I personally think that it should be higher than 18 though – I don’t mean to offend anyone but a teenager rarely knows what they want when it comes to this area. They’re to caught up on their lust to know what they want. Which is part of the reason why I dont believe that Neal/Emma were in love.

Some people aren’t mature enough at 25 to handle kids but it seems unfair to deny people sexual rights based what is right for one person and not another, but that is for a different board and a different time.
I will agree you have a valid claim but what would you say about Cinderella?

Ahh you got me there. I never thought of Cinderella. Good thinking.

[CrownedWithLaurels]

@Lil’Red wrote:

Can we give a shout-out to the posters that don’t ship swanfire but still posted about how the statutory rape argument doesn’t work and has been disproved? There were a couple of them.That was pretty classy, to not jump on a bandwagon because you want something else. And something that happens less often these days in the forums. 😀

Shout-OUUUT! I didn’t become fully Swanfire until I realized how much I was defending it. I had thought I’d stay neutral even though Ive always thought Neal was best for her, I would always be okay with Jefferson or Graham, etc. Honestly rewatching Tallahassee before Manhattan I think pushed me over the edge. I think that Neal’s acting above all was the last thing it took. I didn’t think that highly of him as an actor til I paid way more attention to his subtle but grand acting in Tallahassee the third time I watched it. I saw the selflessness and the true love shining through, eventually. Just took me a few times. 🙂
Anyway, kinda discovered I needed to just face the music this week… Swanfire, through and through.

Keeper Nealfire's/Bae's scarf, Henry and Neal's bribery ice cream sundae, Baelfire's sword, the coconut map, and more.

[Slurpeez]

In the most recent official podcast, Adam Horowitz and Edward Kitsis are fully on board with Neal still loving Emma to the present day:

Podcaster: Neal obviously still loves Emma.
Eddy: I think that when Emma in the bar scene says she made a deal, he knows what happens when people make deals with his father. And he does, of course, love her. He gave her up because August said she had to fulfill her destiny rather than give her up because he fell out of love with her. And, I think, unfortunately, so much time has passed and so much stuff has happened and she’s so hurt that he understands that, at least in his mind, it was a door that got closed off to him, but that doesn’t mean you stop loving someone. https://itunes.apple.com/us/podcast/once-upon-a-time/id561291113?mt=2

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[beastwhisperer]

Yeah, I loved that on the K&H podcast. It’s exactly the way that Nealfire appeared to me in the show. I think his giving Emma up parallels Snowing’s experience of sending her here through the wardrobe. Both he and they made the best plans that they could under the situation as they knew it. Snow was originally supposed to go through still pregnant, so that she’d be there after giving birth to guide Emma. Neal gave Emma everything he had to offer support to Emma after she would be released from jail and made August promise to be there to support and help Emma if Nealfire couldn’t be the one to be there.

For both parties everything went wrong because of August. Snow didn’t know about the second wardrobe slot that August got, and then August ran out of their unpleasant foster home. In both wardrobe and foster home instances I can’t really blame him, since he’s just a little kid. In Neal’s case August completely breaks their deal as an adult, steals all of the money that was supposed to help Emma get a good start, and runs off to Thailand to do things I don’t really want to think about. No wonder the guy is turning to wood when Emma decides to stay in Storybrooke.

While Snow and Charming at least expect that they are sending Emma to our world alone, Nealfire doesn’t know that everything has gone wrong until he meets Emma again and she’s yelling at him. He wasn’t happy about her even going to a minimum security prison for what he felt he should have served instead, and he did everything he could to give her a good start when she gets out. That’s what the car and money were meant to do. To help the woman he loves. For a man who was living in that car to give up both his home and the money that could have given him a fresh start to the person he loves is a big thing.

When Nealfire meets Emma again he seems to have the expectation that his sacrifice and the guidance of August would have helped Emma to be in a good place after getting out of jail. She was supposed to have those things to support her and help her to not only be her best self but to help her find her family. He knows that she broke the curse, because August at least honored his promise to send Nealfire a postcard when Emma did what she was destined to do. In light of that he has no reason to suspect that things went so wrong.

It’s kinda heartbreaking to see how joyful he is to see Emma again in those first moments. He might even believe that August has already told her everything and that could be the reason Emma is there to find him. Then Emma starts freaking out and yelling, and Neal goes through these stages of realization about how badly things have gone for Emma. Seeing her hurting hurts him, and you can see his moments of hope and the moments when his hopes die during their discussion. JMo and MRJ were both so amazing in their scenes.

I also think the episode demonstrates a good reason why Nealfire couldn’t be the one to be there for Emma. We already know that this curse was all about Rumple finding his son. The first thing that Rumple does once learning that Nealfire loves Emma is to threaten Emma in order to get Nealfire to talk to him. He’s not above exploiting Nealfire’s concern for Emma to get what he wants in that situation. If Rumple had learned early on that Emma was the one Nealfire loves, she’d have been his valuable chess piece to threaten when he wanted Bae to listen or do something. Nealfire’s presence could have placed Emma in danger. Instead Emma benefitted by having Rumple’s help breaking the curse because he wanted to find Bae. While Nealfire doesn’t know the details of why he couldn’t be the one to be there for Emma, I think it was true that he couldn’t.

[hcadia]

i must say that manhattan episode was totally AWESOME!!!! i’ve re-watched it four times now, and it’s definitely my second best episode so far from season 2, right after episode 2×06 tallahassee which is my top 1.
i must admit that neal is very attractive and the chemistry between him and emma is AWESOME! well, i do ship captainswan 😎 , but damn….. so hard to choose… i’m so in love with swanfire! 😀

BUT!!!! neal said that rumple was a coward… i think neal is the same, he is a coward himself… thanks to this episode.. we can finally find out why neal has to leave emma… august said that neal will be in the way for emma to fulfill her duty which was to break the curse.. and we didnt know why he would be in her way until now.. he is bealfire and he wanted to stay away his dad…. he didnt want his dad to find him… which means that he didnt want this curse to be break.. while emma has to break it… so he ran away… he chose to leave emma instead of being there and support her to break the curse.. am i right guys or did i misunderstood this? poor emma!!

anyway i do believe that henry is a product of true love, because both emma and bealfire are from FTL, even tho they met in our world and got henry. and i believe that the love between the two of them are pure and true, until neal back off when he found out the truth about emma…

it was so sweet to see henry and neal at the balcony together too! …hm… i dont really know what to call neal or bealfire… get so mixed up 😆

[CrownedWithLaurels]

@hcadia wrote:

BUT!!!! neal said that rumple was a coward… i think neal is the same, he is a coward himself… thanks to this episode.. we can finally find out why neal has to leave emma… august said that neal will be in the way for emma to fulfill her duty which was to break the curse.. and we didnt know why he would be in her way until now.. he is bealfire and he wanted to stay away his dad…. he didnt want his dad to find him… which means that he didnt want this curse to be break.. while emma has to break it… so he ran away… he chose to leave emma instead of being there and support her to break the curse.. am i right guys or did i misunderstood this? poor emma!!

Here’s my take on it from page 1 of this thread. I agree somewhat with that except that because he didn’t want the curse broken, it would have been cowardice to not listen to August and just run away with Emma instead of leaving her. He was told he couldn’t come with her even to help her break the curse. I don’t know that he would have gone with her if August said it was okay, but in this scenario he was only doing what he was told. And because it was her destiny, even though it was hard and even though it meant he might one day face his father, he let her go to do it anyway. Because he was brave in that moment. My take is he didn’t run away because he wanted to leave her. He ran away because August didn’t give him a choice. Also I believe that the writers just said in a quote being passed around the forums today that confirmed that the intention was that Neal did not run away; he didn’t have a choice because of August. Sorry, I’d repost it here with the link but I’m on my phone and its hard enough to type on a mobile-unfriendly format hahaha!
Anyway, I love this topic and I love all the questions that arise from it. 🙂 love it!!

Here it is haha.

. As we have seen and heard many times, it has been made very clear esp in Manhattan that Nealfire believes in destiny. August told Neal this was about her destiny. I think that won out.

Here’s the deal. Yeah I’m sure he was afraid that someone actually knew his name and of his father finding him.
But I don’t think that is what made him give her up. He could have sold the watches with Emma, had some $$ and ran off, the curse never being broken and Rumple never getting out of Storybrooke nor ever getting back his memories to find his son. So if he was being selfish, and feared for himself due to his father, I think he would have just not listened to Pinocchio, because as long as the curse was enacted he wouldn’t have to worry about his father.

Now, granted, we don’t know how much he was told about the curse, and we haven’t been told yet how August even found them in the first place. But I hope we will find all that out soon!

Keeper Nealfire's/Bae's scarf, Henry and Neal's bribery ice cream sundae, Baelfire's sword, the coconut map, and more.

[hcadia]

@CrownedWithLaurels wrote:

@hcadia wrote:

BUT!!!! neal said that rumple was a coward… i think neal is the same, he is a coward himself… thanks to this episode.. we can finally find out why neal has to leave emma… august said that neal will be in the way for emma to fulfill her duty which was to break the curse.. and we didnt know why he would be in her way until now.. he is bealfire and he wanted to stay away his dad…. he didnt want his dad to find him… which means that he didnt want this curse to be break.. while emma has to break it… so he ran away… he chose to leave emma instead of being there and support her to break the curse.. am i right guys or did i misunderstood this? poor emma!!

Here’s my take on it from page 1 of this thread. I agree somewhat with that except that because he didn’t want the curse broken, it would have been cowardice to not listen to August and just run away with Emma instead of leaving her. He was told he couldn’t come with her even to help her break the curse. I don’t know that he would have gone with her if August said it was okay, but in this scenario he was only doing what he was told. And because it was her destiny, even though it was hard and even though it meant he might one day face his father, he let her go to do it anyway. Because he was brave in that moment. My take is he didn’t run away because he wanted to leave her. He ran away because August didn’t give him a choice. Also I believe that the writers just said in a quote being passed around the forums today that confirmed that the intention was that Neal did not run away; he didn’t have a choice because of August. Sorry, I’d repost it here with the link but I’m on my phone and its hard enough to type on a mobile-unfriendly format hahaha!
Anyway, I love this topic and I love all the questions that arise from it. 🙂 love it!!

Here it is haha.

. As we have seen and heard many times, it has been made very clear esp in Manhattan that Nealfire believes in destiny. August told Neal this was about her destiny. I think that won out.

Here’s the deal. Yeah I’m sure he was afraid that someone actually knew his name and of his father finding him.
But I don’t think that is what made him give her up. He could have sold the watches with Emma, had some $$ and ran off, the curse never being broken and Rumple never getting out of Storybrooke nor ever getting back his memories to find his son. So if he was being selfish, and feared for himself due to his father, I think he would have just not listened to Pinocchio, because as long as the curse was enacted he wouldn’t have to worry about his father.

Now, granted, we don’t know how much he was told about the curse, and we haven’t been told yet how August even found them in the first place. But I hope we will find all that out soon!

In Tallahassee episode, August showed up from nowhere, and telling Neal that he and Emma came from the same home and he left her there because he thought that she was safe in the system, but now after he found her she was stealing with Neal… and the life that Neal was living in (stealing and being homeless) would keep Emma away from her destiny which was to break the curse. August asked Neal to leave Emma so she could do what she was suppose to do… because of Neal’s lifestyle… and I think August was very clear about Neal’s lifestyle, if I haven’t remembered it wrong. And I believe that this was the main reason why August needed Neal to get away from Emma because of the way Neal lived his life…it was dangerous and risky.

August then showed Neal what was inside the box to convince him to believe in magic and his story… August did say to Neal “i’m going to tell you a story and at the end of it, you must make a decision, will you do the right thing or not…” (something like this… i dont remember the entire sentence…) So August wasn’t forcing Neal to back off… Neal had a choice to do what was right or not, and for me I think that the right thing would be that he would change his lifestyle, get a job and make Emma believe in magic instead of actually walked away and let Emma deal with this alone even tho I understand that this was her’s destiny.

I’m pretty sure that August was just afraid that Neal will put Emma in danger by stealing and so on.. and that was the reason why Neal couldn’t stay with Emma… I believe that there wasn’t any other reasons.. August just wanted Emma safe until she had to break the curse when she turned 28, cf he wanted her to be in jail so she could be safe inside the system and get her life back together when she come out ..

In Manhattan, Neal admitted that he wanted to get away from all that c r a p… (his dad, magic) and if he knew who Emma was at the first place he wouldn’t come near her. He did admit that he just wanted to help Emma so she could be with her family again by leaving her… which I still can’t understand why this was the solution.. He could come back for Emma after the curse was broken, but he didn’t… He even got engaged … like he wanted to forget the past…..

Based on all of this, I believe that Neal left “ran away” also because he was afraid (coward) of facing his one and only father.. RUMPLE.

When it comes to the writers… i must say that they sometimes are very tricky 😉 if they did say that Neal left Emma because he was told by August then we must believe in them… just that I’m still confused of them sometimes.. like for example what was inside that box…! when Jane Espenson said that it was something, big, mysterious, red, shiny thing… it turned out to be just a simple white piece of paper and “I KNOW THAT YOU’RE BEALFIRE..” 😆

[CrownedWithLaurels]

Something my husband and I were just discussing (we are on a mini 3 hr road trip) was that Emma was stealing before she even met Neal. She was committing Grand Theft Auto before she even met Neal. That’s pretty hefty! August was extremely late in guiding her and she just so happened to have hooked up with a fellow thief. Neal didn’t corrupt her- she was already Rollin pretty high up on the bad girls club. She was already perfectly fine with committing felonies. I think that was very intentional in showing ,hey, Neal didn’t corrupt her, and he’s not the reason August needs to “change her path”, she needed what she got long before she met Neal. Neal actually was the one to suggest they “retire the bonnie and Clyde act” and stop living the life of crime. Sure he suggested it while suggesting they use crime $$to stop life of crime 😆 😆

Keeper Nealfire's/Bae's scarf, Henry and Neal's bribery ice cream sundae, Baelfire's sword, the coconut map, and more.

[beastwhisperer]

As CrownedWithLaurels noted Emma was commiting a very skilled and practiced felony when Neal met her. Neal was the one who suggested that they go straight and settle down in a real home. The watch money was meant to give them a start and new identities. Neal was trying to change his lifestyle for Emma before August popped up with his typewriter box o’ mysteries and started talking about Emma’s destiny.

When August and Neal met in Canada and Neal gave him the car and money for Emma, it always sounded to me like August was forbidding Neal from being with Emma. When Neal says he wants to talk to August about Emma, August responds, “I hope you’re not trying to reach out.” After telling Neal that Emma got eleven months in a minimum security prison in Phoenix, August quickly adds, “and, no, I’m not going to tell you which one.” (sounds like Neal has been bugging him for info) Then August immediately adds, “She’ll get out of there, and she’ll be fine. You keep your promise and steer clear, and she can have a good life.”

It sounds like August’s plan is to scare Emma straight and use her heartbreak to give her a reason to avod thieves in future. It’s not like he sent her to prison until she turned 28 to keep her safe inside the system.

Neal’s lines in this scene include talking about how he should be the one in prison, questioning how August’s prison plan is good, giving the car and all the money so that by helping her he can feel like he is with her, and of course telling August, “If I can’t be there for her, then you’ve got to promise me that you will be.” Not to mention asking to be notified if Emma breaks the curse and is finally free. That all reinforces the fact that August has told Neal he can’t be with Emma and made him promise to stay away.

Early in the scene Neal admits that he’s been trying unsuccessfully to lose himself since his last meeting with August and that he hopes that knowing Emma’s okay will allow him to move on. It sounds like that is something that August is encouraging so that Neal doesn’t break his promise. We don’t know yet how any of this might fit with Tamara, but it could be as simple as Neal believing that August only writing “Broken” on a postcard indicated that Emma had moved on and might not even be available after fulfilling her destiny.

I’m gonna stop here because this is taking forever to type on a mobile device.

[Author]

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