Initial reactions.

[Myril]

Mostly agree with Snow and Charming being bad rulers of their kingdom. Not being able to harm them didn’t mean, that Regina couldn’t still have tried to pay back by harming everybody else they love or care about (so pretty much everybody else, as ruler they should care about their people). At best it was naiv, maybe hoping, that if they were protected, Regina wouldn’t dare to attack anyone else to get back on them, after all they could have gone after her again if. Well, good people sometimes lack the imagination what evil people are capable of (and I say so despite that I think, that no one is all good or all evil, but indeed mostly good people sometimes seem to lack what one might call evil creativity and imagination, they may just don’t want to believe, that anyone is capable of some things)

Don’t agree on Emma being naiv or inconsistent. Maybe Gold could have tricked them, okay, he was the only one who seemed to know about what a dreamcatcher can be good for, so right, can’t be sure this were indeed Pongo’s memories. But it wasn’t like she was all trusting Gold, and very sure not at first. Now, we know, he didn’t trick them, those were Pongo’s memories. What bugged me about it a little though was, that eventually looking at these memories just some seconds longer might have shown them something else – but Emma was too emotional to hold it up any longer I guess, she dropped the dreamcatcher.

And because I think, they could have seen more, don’t think Cora had that in mind when letting Pongo alive. She might have done it on purpose nevertheless. She needed him to stay quite while doing her show and kidnapping Archie, but later very well served to alert someone, that something did happen to Archie (wonder if the paralyzing spell just wore off after some time or if she set Pongo free at a time it suited her).

Emma was harsh to Regina after she was convinced, that Regina did kill Archie, true. And right, legally Regina still would have the rights of a mother, and not Emma. But, we’re not in some normal town here, it’s not like our laws really apply to Storybrooke. So we have to talk about moral. We know, that for a change Regina is innocent, but Emma doesn’t. Emotions were running high.

We were meant to feel for Regina here. In contrast to what they told happened in the Enchanted Forest before she enacted the curse, the way that was told we should see there more her evil side. Like that the writers did that. Of course turned out in the end again, that Rumple played them all (what an imp he is). And now Cora played them in present Storybrooke.

@EvilQueen wrote:

Now there’s absolutely NOTHING that will help Regina, nothing can be unsaid and obviously she’ll come back to the dark side.

Not giving up all hope for Regina, but it was not to be expected to be ever easy for her.

Other things:

The dreamcatcher – very interesting. There was a dreamcatcher in Neal’s apartment, probably the one he once “found” together with Emma. So, now let’s go for some happy speculations! 😛

That execution scene, hmmmm. It didn’t hit me that much in the sneak peek, but seriously, excuting someone with shooting arrows at them is a very ineffective, unreliable and even cruel way. A skilled beheading is a quicker death – and we know, they had guillotines in the Enchanted Forest, King Georg wanted to use one on Charming (and they were here in that very same castle). (And didn’t see a dramaturgical advantage to use arrows instead)

Regina had the best lines in this episode
to Archie: Doctor? Doctor. Need I remind you, you got your doctor from a curse.
to Red: Private conversation. Go take yourself for a walk!

And Hook to Cora: Well, aren’t you mom of the year. 😆

A few minor weaknesses in the writing, but all in all it was a great episode, a good kick-off for the second half of the season, with some interesting character and overall story development and things to think about.

[TheGoldenKey]

@myril wrote:

Mostly agree with Snow and Charming being bad rulers of their kingdom. Not being able to harm them didn’t mean, that Regina couldn’t still have tried to pay back by harming everybody else they love or care about (so pretty much everybody else, as ruler they should care about their people). At best it was naiv, maybe hoping, that if they were protected, Regina wouldn’t dare to attack anyone else to get back on them, after all they could have gone after her again if. Well, good people sometimes lack the imagination what evil people are capable of (and I say so despite that I think, that no one is all good or all evil, but indeed mostly good people sometimes seem to lack what one might call evil creativity and imagination, they may just don’t want to believe, that anyone is capable of some things).

Again, I see things somewhat differently. Snow, as a young girl, was quite in awe of Reggie. She truly loved her and looked up to her. It was only after Snow became an adult and Reggie murdered her father that she saw that evil side to her. Thus, she was torn between love (for Reggie) and hate (for EQ) all throughout their FTL relationship.

I see both her and Charming as kind, just and righteous rulers. They believe in the goodness of all people. Now Charming was ready to execute EQ However, seeing as there were such strong emotional ties between Snow & EQ, it wasn’t as easy for Snow. She knew the kind gentle young Reggie. This wasn’t some stranger that was an enemy of the state. It was her step mother, one she had loved for well over a decade. Can’t even begin to imagine the torment she must have gone through.

I’m sure they believed in having her banished she would no longer pose any threat to them or the kingdom. I’d rather someone error on the side of right then wrong. They made a mistake, it happens. Doesn’t mean that they weren’t strong, kind and fair rulers.

Keeper of Pandora's Box & The Yellow Brick Road.

[Myril]

@TheGoldenKey wrote:

@myril wrote:

Mostly agree with Snow and Charming being bad rulers of their kingdom. Not being able to harm them didn’t mean, that Regina couldn’t still have tried to pay back by harming everybody else they love or care about (so pretty much everybody else, as ruler they should care about their people). At best it was naiv, maybe hoping, that if they were protected, Regina wouldn’t dare to attack anyone else to get back on them, after all they could have gone after her again if. Well, good people sometimes lack the imagination what evil people are capable of (and I say so despite that I think, that no one is all good or all evil, but indeed mostly good people sometimes seem to lack what one might call evil creativity and imagination, they may just don’t want to believe, that anyone is capable of some things).

Again, I see things somewhat differently. Snow, as a young girl, was quite in awe of Reggie. She truly loved her and looked up to her. It was only after Snow became an adult and Reggie murdered her father that she saw that evil side to her. Thus, she was torn between love (for Reggie) and hate (for EQ) all throughout their FTL relationship.

I see both her and Charming as kind, just and righteous rulers. They believe in the goodness of all people. Now Charming was ready to execute EQ However, seeing as there were such strong emotional ties between Snow & EQ, it wasn’t as easy for Snow. She knew the kind gentle young Reggie. This wasn’t some stranger that was an enemy of the state. It was her step mother, one she had loved for well over a decade. Can’t even begin to imagine the torment she must have gone through.

I’m sure they believed in having her banished she would no longer pose any threat to them or the kingdom. I’d rather someone error on the side of right then wrong. They made a mistake, it happens. Doesn’t mean that they weren’t strong, kind and fair rulers.

I meant being bad, or should maybe say mislead in this particular case, not in general. And I very much see where Snow has been coming from, can understand it. (I loved, that the writers did this, it was very much in character for her, anything else would have been mediocre writing.) Nevertheless, it was some huge mistake they made here. And I think Snow questioned herself later for that (remember what she said in the pilot), maybe still does. Banishing was obviously not enough. Not saying they should have killed Regina, but find some way to control her magic. They later locked up Rumple, didn’t they.

At least Snow though made it very clear when they let Regina go: that she would kill Regina, if she would ever hurt anyone in their kingdom again.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[Phee]

@EvilQueen wrote:

Initial reactions to the episode and to every scene – Emma is really not consistent (and believe me, this is the nicest word I can say about her right now). How could she remotely believe Gold?

Because whilst his actions may be dubious, his knowledge of magic is undeniable, and they needed an immediate solution to a serious problem. The last time Emma went to Rumple, he didn’t claim to have power over who she was and what she could do, in fact, he told her the complete opposite when she accused him of it. So she knows that it they pit wills against each other, she has the ability to keep her own mind and make her own judgements if she deems his input worthy of consideration.

Now there’s absolutely NOTHING that will help Regina, nothing can be unsaid and obviously she’ll come back to the dark side.

It’s true that nothing can be unsaid, but eventually, somehow, Cora will be exposed, and Archie will be found alive, and it’ll be clear that Regina didn’t in fact murder anyone. Then everyone who believed she was guilty will feel like crap, which sucks for them, but makes for some juicy angst and struggles between characters’ relationships, and I’m all for that because it’ll keep things interesting.

And what was Snow thinking, of course Evil Queen would be trying to kill her the minute she had a chance, it’s been her motif for all those years, why would she suddenly forget it?

And it’s always been Snow’s thing to believe in good, so she had to give Regina one final chance before giving up on her completely.

@Marilou wrote:

BTW, How does Emma dare tell Regina that henry is not her son? Emma gave him up when he was a child, I was all for Emma having contact with her son again and when the truth started to unfold, I did not mind henry being raised by the charming… Emma went too far this time around. Regina is henry’s mother no matter how hard she tries.

Emma crossed a line she shouldn’t have when she said that, but given the circumstances, I can’t really fault her for saying it. In that moment, she believed that Regina had just killed Archie and that her innocent act had been a really good act, good enough to fool Emma’s infamous lie detecting power. Emma believed Regina to be very dangerous in that moment, too dangerous for Henry to be around. If I were Emma, I probably would have blurted out the thing that would have hurt Regina the most in that moment too.

I loved all the back and forth between Emma and Regina in this ep. Thought it laid out really well just how complicated their relationship is. SwanQueen shippers must have been losing their minds on that little emotional rollercoaster.

@EvilQueen wrote:

@NONNIE wrote:

I am going to have to watch it again but I think the curse included everyone in FTL not just Snow and PC.

No, they say that with the protection spell Regina cannot do anything to Snow or Charming, that’s it. Only later on Snow added that she will kill Regina is she tries to hurt anyone in her kingdom – which confirms that the Evil Queen can harm others and the spell protects only the Charmings exclusively.

They’d just demonstrated that they had access to powers that could defy Regina, so they probably figured it was safe to assume that she wouldn’t do anything that would give them cause to come after her. And they may well have been correct, and perhaps Regina didn’t go around harming people between the day they set her free, and the wedding day, when she dropped her little bombshell, in which case, their plan worked to keep everyone safe. There was no way they could have anticipated her getting her hands on a curse to send them all to another world, because as per usual, Rumple was the man behind the scenes, manipulating everything to set it up just how he wanted it. He knew that Snow’s weakness was to want to believe in the good in Regina, so he exploited that and used Snow to get Regina set free. He worded everything perfectly to Snow, so that she said the right things to Regina, so that Regina would believe what she needed to so that when she heard about a curse to send them all to a different land, she would instantly jump at the chance. Once again, I’m in awe of that devious bugger, Rumple. He is the man.

@TheGoldenKey wrote:

@EvilQueen wrote:

Another thing – did Cora save Pongo on purpose? Could she have imagined he would be used to help frame Regina? Does she know Rumple so well that she knows his methods? For example, instead of paralyzing the dog, she could’ve let him keep on barking so that the people around would be more alarmed and surely some witness would’ve noticed Regina/Cora leaving?

Letting Pongo bark would only draw attention and risk being captured. She didn’t want to get caught. If the plan was for everyone to think Reggie had done it so that Reggie would break then getting caught would have ruined that. The gig would have been up when there were two Reggies. She wanted the clean getaway with Reggie being hauled in after the fact.

Not only would Pongo drawing attention have risked Cora being captured, which would have defeated the purpose of Regina being accused, but Cora didn’t want any interruptions, because then she wouldn’t have been able to get away with Archie. Her plan wasn’t just to frame Regina for murder, it was also to snag Archie, to pump him for intel.

@myril wrote:

The dreamcatcher – very interesting. There was a dreamcatcher in Neal’s apartment, probably the one he once “found” together with Emma. So, now let’s go for some happy speculations! 😛

It’s certainly no coincidence that we saw another dreamcatcher, and that this time it was being used for a magical purpose. Rumple may have used this opportunity to test out Emma’s powers, because he’s planning to use her to track down Bae, and maybe he’d been planning to get her to do this with Bae as well, as a means of proving his identity. If Neal is Bae, then that dreamcatcher theme would tie together quite nicely.

That execution scene, hmmmm. It didn’t hit me that much in the sneak peek, but seriously, excuting someone with shooting arrows at them is a very ineffective, unreliable and even cruel way.

It’s effective from a dramatic standpoint though. Gotta love the imagery of Blue freezing the arrows and having them fall to the ground at the last moment. 😉

Regina had the best lines in this episode
to Archie: Doctor? Doctor. Need I remind you, you got your doctor from a curse.
to Red: Private conversation. Go take yourself for a walk!

Also liked how she called him a bug and had a line about him chirping in people’s ears. It’s interesting to see how the two personalities of the characters blend, but it’s a bit of extra fun when their alternate persona is an animal. 😆

[pmc]

Was anyone else hoping it was going to be Baelfire (how ever his name is spelled) in the hold? That would certainly have gotten Gold’s attention.

[hellraiser-89]

@PMC wrote:

Was anyone else hoping it was going to be Baelfire (how ever his name is spelled) in the hold? That would certainly have gotten Gold’s attention.

But Cora and Hook don’t want attention. They want stealth and information.

[eireland]

Because of that I will forgive the little bit of dullness that was hanging around the edges.

I didn’t think the episode was dull, but i appreciated the slow moments for sure after the pace of the first 9!

[eireland]

Also, re: Emma saying Regina is not Henry’s mother….

Mean thing to say in a normal adoption circumstance, or maybe even in this one, I agree.

However, I just want us all to remember that when Henry came to Emma, Emma didn’t want to be in his life, and nothing HENRY did could keep her there… It was Regina who kept Emma in SB by being evil, lying and hurting Henry. So, I get that Regina IS Henry’s mom TOO, but the world (ESPECIALLY the world according to this show) is not as black and white.

Both said hurtful things. Both apologized. EMMA is Henry’s mom TOO. And HENRY wants to be with Emma. Because Regina is evil. Even in real world custody cases, the parent who had the problem has to PROVE that they are taking steps to change, and it isn’t just “oh yay, you did something right for a change, here’s your kid back”… And in real life, Henry would have a say too.

[marilou]

@EIreland wrote:

Both said hurtful things. Both apologized. EMMA is Henry’s mom TOO. And HENRY wants to be with Emma. Because Regina is evil. Even in real world custody cases, the parent who had the problem has to PROVE that they are taking steps to change, and it isn’t just “oh yay, you did something right for a change, here’s your kid back”… And in real life, Henry would have a say too.

yeah I get that they are in some pretty extraordinary circumstance. it’s just that lately, in television shows there is this trend of birth mothers being somehow back in the adopted children life and then the birth mother just goes a-wire and think she has some sort of legal right over the child. Even if Regina was proven to be an unfit mother, Henry would not be put by default into Emma’s care. He would most likely be taken by the state and brought to Boston (They do have a bit of an unhealthy obsession with this city) where if she wanted to have a shot at being his mother she would have to apply to adopt him and being and ex-convict/single parent/rooming with another lady… I don’t think the great state of Maine would give her Henry… or any child for that matter. . By giving henry up for adoption she relinquished any and all legal rights she may have over his life. The fact that Henry went after her does not change anything.

anyway, all this to say. television is currently transporting this idea that birth mother still have some rights over their children and that can possibly scare some potential adoptive parents.

[eireland]

This show has barely touched legal rights. And I doubt it will.

[Author]

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