Is Rumpel a hidden saint?

[RumplesGirl]

I know we’ve talked about this a lot but it has to be more than TLK to get rid of the Dark One’s curse; he’s had TLK once and it began to work but it came back as soon as it ended. I think it has to be him willingly giving up the Dark One AND TLK.

[Keb]

Am saying again what I know you’ve already read me write, RG:

I think TLK is complicated and requires a level of faith and sacrifice to work on both parties’s parts to actually work. When Rumple doubts her motives as the kiss is working, it reverses–because suddenly he no longer trusts her and is no longer willing to sacrifice for her the way he was just moments before. (And the sacrifice was that he had set her free despite liking her company, while she had given up her freedom to come back to him.)

I think this holds true in the other instance we’ve seen TLK work: Snow ate the apple to save Charming, who had already risked his life a number of times on her behalf and had, immediately before, fought Maleficent to get Rumple’s help so he could give her that kiss. So the kiss worked. Likewise, when it brought back Snow’s memory in the EF, he had just flung himself in front of an arrow to save her soul, and she was so moved by it that she trusted him and was willing to give up the protection she thought the potion had given her. And when Snow brings David back from the sleeping curse with TLK, they’d already shown their devotion–but again, he’d sacrificed himself to the curse to try to save her. I don’t think their kisses worked during the curse partly because there was no magic (Emma brought her own), but also because they didn’t have that complete trust/willingness to sacrifice for one another.

With Henry, he ate the apple to save Emma and she fought the dragon (same one in both cases, hahaha, love parallels in this show) to save him. And they’d had the whole first season to learn to trust each other–Emma finally trusted him fully when she believed.

We’ve seen that Phillip and Aurora were willing to sacrifice for one another.

I think the kiss in 201 didn’t remove the DO curse because at that moment Rumple was already plotting how to violate the promise he’d just made to her; he wasn’t willing to sacrifice his power to be with her.

Which is why I’m completely baffled by the kisses in the finale. They darn well better come up with an explanation, because I don’t think he had any reservations left at that point, nor she. What’s it TAKE?

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[Marty McFly]

maybe the DO isn’t actually a curse that can be broken by TLK, but something stronger and evil that “has taken root” inside the person once he becomes a DO he has to fight the roots growing inside him?

[Keb]

But it WAS breaking in Skin Deep, until he got suspicious and angry and scared. And we’ve been told repeatedly that TLK can break any curse, including that one. The clearest limit we’ve seen on TLK is that it has to be mutual, True Love between the parties involved–it does not work if one party does not know/remember the other for some reason.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[kfchimera]

Keb–great points, I liked your listing (you are on top of the pesky details!).
I don’t think Rumpel is a hidden saint–I think he does do bad things for selfish reasons even though his main motivation is finding his son, which is very sympathetic as a cause. I just don’t think manipulating an innocent young lady who has had her heart crushed (or rather her True Love’s) into a monster that must kill her own father, and along the way not actively doing anything about fueling her need for revenge and magic, shows him to be much of a saint. He could have really helped limit collateral damage from the fall out of many things and chose not to do so. To put it this way–even though he wanted to find his son, he caused Henry Sr. to lose his daughter in a round-about-way. Cora is hugely to blame for damaging Regina, and of course, Regina made many bad choices all on her own, but Rumpel also could have said “No matter my pain, I cannot inflict similar or worse things on others.” Yet he does, though usually in such a round-about fashion with the deals that it is not as powerful as what we see out of Regina, since usually people consent to the conditions he poses them. Yet I don’t see him as a saint.

I’ve often wondered this about fairytales–there’s often a “teacher” character who creates some magical situation that the hero has to solve, then rewards the hero. Whether it is a beggar woman at the castle door, a peddler on the side of the road, or whatever, the not-so-good folk don’t help, but the hero is the one who does. The flip side is the “trickster” who sets the situation up to hurt the hero, not to test their virtue and reward them (this is the original Rumpel category from the fairytale). It can be tricky to tell which is which in some fairytales, but I think Rumpel is more trickster than teacher, though in some cases people learn something out of his deals. It’s not really his intent to help them though in this story. It’s all for his own good and aims–even when he’s dealing with Charming and Snow and it seems like he’s helping people and not really tricking them too badly, he kind of sort of has his masterplan in mind, always. Except Belle–I think that was one time he just sort of was like, why not–I don’t think he had a larger purpose for her in mind.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Josephine]

So far, Once has paralleled the animated Disney version of “Beauty and the Beast” very well without making it a duplicate. The numbered list is what generally happens in most versions of the tale and under is what specifically happens in the Disney’s and Once’s versions.

1) Beauty sacrifices herself to save her family.
BATB: She changes places with her dad in the castle.
Once: She goes with Rumple to save her village.

2) Beauty has a hard time adjusting
BATB: She cries and eventually runs away after being frightened and escapes only to be saved by the Beast from a pack of wolves.
Once: She cries and let’s RH escape and wishes him well. Rumple drags her along for the hunt but eventually lets RH save his Marian and escape.

3) Beauty and the Beast become friends
BATB: “There may be something there that wasn’t there before”. 😉
Once: Falling off the ladder, Belle chasing him around the table, talks about Bae.

The rest of the “Beauty and the Beast” storyline is kind of played in a continuous loop that we’ll hopefully get out of one day.

TAKE ONE

4) Beauty leaves the Beast.
BATB: Belle sees her father sick through the magic mirror and the Beast releases her to go to him.
Once: Rumple releases Belle after their heart-to-heart and he realizes he’s falling for her.

5) The Beauty returns to the Beast
BATB: Belle escapes and after a fight with Gaston saves the Beast with her tears and the curse is lifted. (Nope, it wasn’t the kiss that did it!)
Once: Belle returns, with the urging of Regina, and kisses Rumple. TLK works and starts to transform, but he stops it, gets angry and banishes her once again. No curse is broken.

So in our original “Skin Deep” episode, they don’t have their happy ending as we all know. So it goes back and is rewound to earlier in the story and we have to repeat elements.

TAKE TWO:

4) Beauty leaves the Beast.
Belle leaves Rumple and goes on adventure with Mulan and instead of returning to her family decides to return to Rumple and patch their relationship because she loves him. But….she’s captured by Regina and held prisoner.

5) The Beauty returns to the Beast
Belle escapes, with the help of Jefferson and returns to Rumple. Kissing goes on but no curse is broken.

TAKE THREE:

4) Beauty leaves the Beast.
Belle is angry at Rumple and her father and refuses to see them again.

5) The Beauty returns to the Beast
Really only lasts five minutes as Rumple reveals his sob story of Bae and Belle agrees to date him, but won’t live with him anymore since she needs her space. No curse is broken.

TAKE FOUR:
4) Beauty leaves the Beast.
She doesn’t physically leave him, but does so in a way by becoming Lacey.

5) The Beauty returns to the Beast
Rumple gives Lacey the BF’s conveniently crafted potion and she becomes Belle once agan. Kisses occur again and no curse is broken.

TAKE FIVE, but with a twist and maybe an end to our endless loop:

4) Beauty leaves the Beast.
Rumple leaves Belle, unlike all the other times, to save his grandson. He doesn’t expect to ever return, but we all know he will.

5) The Beauty returns to the Beast
The unknown! What will happen when Rumple returns from his journey? Will he be devoid of powers? Will a kiss from Belle break him from his curse once and for all?

My point of outlining the parallels is whilst I think Rumple’s undoing will be the shedding of his curse, are they going to have it be at the hands of Henry or Belle? We’ve already see Gold dying once this season and the cure wasn’t TLK. Belle had amnesia and it wouldn’t have worked in any case. So will they reloop the “Rumple dying” thing and this time let Belle save him? Or will it involve Henry and/or Neal.

We really need to get past this skip on the broken record. Ultimately the only way that can happen if for the DO curse to be gone once and for all.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[kfchimera]

That is interesting–but once Rumpel is just a man, and their story is no longer so much Beauty and the Beast–then it becomes like Snow’s dark heart storyline. Who is he if he isn’t this guy searching for love and unable to attain it? What is he like as a guy who has it again and is worried about losing it since now he doesn’t have unfathomable power and has an enemies list the size of SB? I think that’s where I see Rumpel going and Belle “saving” him in quite different ways than showing him goodness–there’s a part in the movie where Belle has to try to convince the townsfolk that the beast isn’t what he seems. They could play off that.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

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