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So you think Lily being named after the antagonist character in Black Swan is purely coincidence? And that the random biblical reference is more plausible? Okay.
[adrotate group="5"]So you think Lily being named after the antagonist character in Black Swan is purely coincidence? And that the random biblical reference is more plausible? Okay.
Lily in OUAT was not named after the antagonist in Black Swan. Lily is a highly common name and you have not proven that she was absolutely named after a character in a movie any more than you’ve proven that she was named Lily simply because A and E liked the name. She’s not LILY—she’s Lilith. There is a reason why they had her father say her full name in 405–Lily is common, Lilith is not and has is far more tied to mythology.
Also, are you *aware* of how many Biblical names there are in this show? Their names providing some parallels to the character’s story and arcs? You think one movie from a few years ago has more symbolic weight than the Bible? For storytellers? Who are literally taking their main character down the road that is probably the oldest story in the world–the heroes journey?
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"“Lily in OUAT was not named after the antagonist in Black Swan. “
Um, and how do you even know this? Are you A or E? Didn’t think so. This is just my theory, just like yours is just a theory. There are no right or wrong ones here. We can’t say for certain what is or isn’t until it’s been proven on the show, and nowhere have they explained where Lily got her name.
“Lily is a highly common name and you have not proven that she was absolutely named after a character in a movie any more than you’ve proven that she was named Lily simply because A and E liked the name”
And what have you proven?
“She’s not LILY—she’s Lilith. There is a reason why they had her father say her full name in 405”
Duh. And there is also a reason they are only referring to her as LILLY from now on. Do you know what the title of this next episode is? It’s LILY, not Lilith
are you *aware* of how many Biblical names there are in this show? ..You think one movie from a few years ago has more symbolic weight than the Bible?
Are you aware that while there may be Biblical references in the show that this is first and foremost a show about FAIRY TALES. YES I am more inclined to believe a clear fairy tale/ballet connection over a biblical one for this show when faced with the two options. The fact that Emma’s last name is Swan and her supposed evil counterpart is named Lily just like a popular character from Black Swan is much more convincing of an argument to me than the mythology of Lilith, especially when her sworn protector (and possible author of part of her story) shares his name with the fairy tale writer who inspired Swan Lake (August).
This is my opinion. I respect yours, even though it’s wrong. 😉
Um, and how do you even know this? Are you A or E? Didn’t think so. This is just my theory, just like yours is just a theory. There are no right or wrong ones here. We can’t say for certain what is or isn’t until it’s been proven on the show, and nowhere have they explained where Lily got her name.
In order for her to be named after the character in Black Swan, you’d have to show a connection that is more than superficial–more than just a name. Lily, in the recent movie, is not actually evil, she is not actually the antagonist. Nina is. *That’s* your connection to the movie, if there is one. Emma is the Black Swan (as A and E have said in past interviews) if she gives into the darkness, just as Nina in the movie is the Black Swan once she is pushed too far–just like Emma has been pushed to her breaking point this season. You’re simply noticing that two characters share a name and relationship to something Swan-y. That’s fine, but you’re stopping at the full parallel.
Duh. And there is also a reason they are only referring to her as LILLY from now on. Do you know what the title of this next episode is? It’s LILY, not Lilith
They did not randomly give her the name Lilith. We all knew going in that her name was Lily, but most assumed it would be Lilian. Then we see the pentagram on her wrist and we learn that her name is Lilith. It’s a fairly easy connection given typical Hollywood tropes of what signifies “evil” and “demon”–ie: pentagrams, never mind what their actual historical connotation is. In Jewish literature Lilith is the mother of evil/demons. So you have a Lilith, a pentagram, and later in this arc we learned that she apparently had “darkness” cast into her. It’s not a tenuous connection to harken her to the mythological and Biblical one. And it certainly has more of a leg to stand on than just “there was a Lily in the Black Swan movie”
Are you aware that while there may be Biblical references in the show that this is first and foremost a show about FAIRY TALES
Goodness, what do you think fairy tales are if not the constant reaffirmation of some of the oldest tropes and archeytypes and stock characters of the universe as best exemplified by religious traditions, be they of the classic pantheon variety, of Judo-Christian, or other? It is not as if Fairy Tales are on one side of the line and the Bible in on another. Folk tales, legends, fairy tales, myths, religious stories…they are all pretty much working together. Why do think there are so many similarities in stories?
This is my opinion. I respect yours, even though it’s wrong. 😉
You’re more entitled to your opinion, your theory, your whatever. But your evidence is rather specious and I’m pointing that out. Also, please do not tell people they are wrong. We believe in constructive debating here; not “you’re wrong! I’m right! You’ll see!” I respect your opinion but this is a debate. I’m allowed to point out the flaws in your theories.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"There is another possibility. For all we know, both theories concerning where Adam and Eddy decided on the name Lily could be correct. Would be interesting if we could get a concrete answer from them in an interview.
There is another possibility. For all we know, both theories concerning where Adam and Eddy decided on the name Lily could be correct. Would be interesting if we could get a concrete answer from them in an interview.
Sure, absolutely. I think that’s likely given their love of popular culture and myth. There is no reason why it can’t be both. But the full parallel the movie is more than just “the antagonist is named Lily” since the movie is fairly more complex than that, as I stated in my first post, a page back.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"“Lily in OUAT was not named after the antagonist in Black Swan. “
Um, and how do you even know this? Are you A or E? Didn’t think so. This is just my theory, just like yours is just a theory. There are no right or wrong ones here. We can’t say for certain what is or isn’t until it’s been proven on the show, and nowhere have they explained where Lily got her name.
You contradict yourself here by claiming later on that RG’s is “wrong”.
I agree with RG that it is extremely doubtful Lily was named after the character in Black Swan. If you’re demanding an explanation for where Lily got her name, then you might as well ask Why was Charming called David? Why is Aurora called Aurora? Why is Hook called Killian? Why is Rumple called Rumple? Where did all those characters get their names? etc etc.
“Lily is a highly common name and you have not proven that she was absolutely named after a character in a movie any more than you’ve proven that she was named Lily simply because A and E liked the name”
And what have you proven?
Flowers seem to pop up quite a lot in the show, the rose, the snow drops, why not name someone after a flower? Also a flower most commonly associated with funerals and death?
“She’s not LILY—she’s Lilith. There is a reason why they had her father say her full name in 405″
Duh. And there is also a reason they are only referring to her as LILLY from now on. Do you know what the title of this next episode is? It’s LILY, not Lilith
Because Lilith is one of those names that you regret so you prefer to be called Lily, especially as a teenager, because it sounds more normal?
are you *aware* of how many Biblical names there are in this show? ..You think one movie from a few years ago has more symbolic weight than the Bible?
Are you aware that while there may be Biblical references in the show that this is first and foremost a show about FAIRY TALES. YES I am more inclined to believe a clear fairy tale/ballet connection over a biblical one for this show when faced with the two options. The fact that Emma’s last name is Swan and her supposed evil counterpart is named Lily just like a popular character from Black Swan is much more convincing of an argument to me than the mythology of Lilith, especially when her sworn protector (and possible author of part of her story) shares his name with the fairy tale writer who inspired Swan Lake (August).
I think it’s unlikely that A&E would take things from the movie Black Swan because of copyright issues and what not. By your logic that’s like saying Regina is supposed to be Nina because Barbara Hearshey played a pushy mother in that film and in Once she plays Regina’s pushy mother.
This is my opinion. I respect yours, even though it’s wrong.
And here’s the contradiction from your earlier statement.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixIn order for her to be named after the character in Black Swan, you’d have to show a connection that is more than superficial–more than just a name.
I disagree. Most, if not all, the characaters’ Storybrooke names have been superficial winks, nods and references to characters and people that relate to their fairy tale personas. Dr. Whale for instance is named after the director of the Frankenstein films, and Regina simply means Queen in Latin. There doesn’t have to be this deep exact parallel.
But you seem to be forcing this idea that if there is a connection to another story, like Black Swan or Swan Lake, there has to be a direct parallel:
“That’s fine, but you’re stopping at the full parallel.
But I disagree, I don’t think there has to be a direct parallel to the movie. I think there is a small connection to the SWAN LAKE ballet and story on which the film is based and the name is just taken from the film just as Dr. Whales comes from the director of Frankenstein. That’s it. There are TONS!! of these minor connections and references scattered about the series, from random allusions to One Flew Over the Couckoo’s Nest to The Great Gatsby, neither of which have full parallels.
Also, if you look up the cast list for Black Swan on IMDB or WIkipedia, Mila Kunis is credited as “lily/THE BLACK SWAN”–FYI Who cares about the actual plot of Nina being her own black swan. IMO it isn’t a parallel, it’ s a reference. Big difference.
Dr. Whale for instance is named after the director of the Frankenstein films, and Regina simply means Queen in Latin. There doesn’t have to be this deep exact parallel.
You’re right. There doesn’t. But Lilith + pentagram + apparently super evil lends itself to the mythological reading whereas Regina meaning queen in Latin is straightforward and without any hidden depth.
But you seem to be forcing this idea that if there is a connection to another story, like Black Swan or Swan Lake, there has to be a direct parallel:
You’re the one who’s connecting Lily/Emma/August to a ballet…I’m responding in kind. I’m not forcing anything that you haven’t set up in the first place
But I disagree, I don’t think there has to be a direct parallel to the movie. I think there is a small connection to the SWAN LAKE ballet and story on which the film is based and the name is just taken from the film just as Dr. Whales comes from the director of Frankenstein. That’s it. There are TONS!! of these minor connections and references scattered about the series, from random allusions to One Flew Over the Couckoo’s Nest to The Great Gatsby, neither of which have full parallels.
1) Trust me; I know all the references, though I disagree with the idea that the parallels are just small tiny ones. If you’ve listened to the recent podcast, I went on for some time about the Great Gatsby parallels and actually had to stop myself because we only have a certain amount of time.
2) You seem to be of two minds. You’re suggesting right now that it’s just a tiny little connection that you found. That’s fine. BUT in your OP you state
This could mean two things: Either it’s just a wink and a nod to Swan Lake and Black Swan, or maybe Lily is the real Emma and maybe the two were switched as babies. This would tie in the Odile disguise story line of Swan Lake and would explain why Emma looks more like Maleficent with her blond hair than the Charmings.
Another Swan Lake connection is August. Apparently Swan Lake was inspired by the German fairytale author Johann Karl AUGUST Musäus. This ties in with August’s connection with Emma Swan and the book. The show has also been glossing over August’s connection with the book and whether or not he is/was an author or if he’s ever written anything.
Which suggests that you think your tiny connection has a broader implication, ie: Emma is not Snowing’s daughter.
So which is it? Is Lily from the Black Swan and it’s only a small connection or does her name and the story as you see it have a larger part to play.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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