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Hmm. Since when is a baby a magical device that bumps up the charisma stats of a disliked character?
Yes, Zelena might take to motherhood — but we have no evidence that she would. If anything, we have ample evidence to the contrary. If the motivation to have a child is to have someone of “one’s own,” that’s a pretty chilling scenario. I can just imagine Zelena, who’s already unstable, but is now also sleep-deprived, likely with no support from Robin, trying to raise the child. And what happens when the kid starts asserting their independence? Has a temper tantrum? What about when they’re a little older (if they make it that far), and start voicing opinions that do not correspond with Zelena’s? It might come to pass, but the writers are essentially trusting us to assume that because Zelena is pregnant, somehow her entire being will get an overhaul.
“Motherhood” is not some kind of magical corrective that suddenly makes a woman into what she “properly” ought to be — meek, caring, devoted, unselfish, [insert your favorite gender ideology descriptor]. I had a huge problem with that idea with Cora too. Seriously, #babiesasprops.
[adrotate group="5"]“If anything could turn Zelena into a more sympathetic character–it’s a baby”
Zelena has done some pretty horrible things including Murder, Kidnap,(babynap?), Identity Theft and various other things. How on Earth is a baby going to make us, the audience, forget all those things and SYMPATHIZE with her. I’m sorry A&E but you are doing it wrong. Actually, I’m not sorry. I have words i’d love to say but RG would destroy me >.<
Now, I am not a mother (dear God *shudder* >.<) but I do believe a child can bring out the better in someone and cause a change in the way they do things and they way they go about life. BUT no, not like this. Zelena is….no. I believe she can change but a baby is not the thing to do it. She’s choosing to have one to hold her sisters man to her and to cause emotional turmoil between her sister and her sisters TL. She’s having this child out of purely evil intentions. That is not sympathetic at all.
But I have to say though…. I am interested in seeing how this will turn out even though I know its a trainwreck waiting to happen.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICZelena being a bad mother is the only way that OQ can have the baby without being somewhat cruel. Problem is however, the only way to do this would be to show Zelena actively being nasty towards the child which means that child has to suffer all so OQ don’t look bad. If OQ take the child straight off then Zelena never had the chance to be a good mother before the child was whisked away. If Zelena is struggling but loves her child and OQ take it anyway, then that is still pretty damning on OQ when they could’ve just given her some extra support.
Thing is though, I don’t think Zelena would want to willingly give up her child because of her past history of being abandoned, she’d likely overcompensate by smothering the child with attention.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixLet’s all think about this for a second…
Regina….Regina was the one villain with the darkest heart in ALL the land, second only to Rumplestilskin. As terrible as she was, she managed to redeem herself and change for Henry. However, the difference is…Regina’s turn to evil was because she was missing an unconditional love in her life.
I know a lot of people are going to say that Henry Sr. counted, but lest we forget….Henry Sr. was a coward who stood by and let Cora mentally and physically abuse their daughter. I know there wasn’t much he could do, but I’m still pulling for them showing us him confronting Cora, and putting his foot down…even if it’s just one time…to show us that he at least tried to defend Regina.
When Regina adopted Henry, her entire life changed because for the first time in decades, she loved someone more than herself…someone she was ready to risk breaking the curse for to save, knowing that it’d cost her her life. There’s not a thing Regina won’t do for Henry, because he not only changed her for the better, but gave her the unconditional love she had been denied for decades.
I don’t think Zelena should be denied the chance to raise her child, who although was created from vengeance, envy, and lust….it, like Henry did for Regina, can change Zelena. I don’t know about sympathizing with Zelena because I don’t see how a child can make us feel for her, but I do think we’d see a different side of Zelena, which may or may not change our perspective of her character. What’s meant for bad may can turn into something good….Robin is going to choose Regina, but I think they’re going to co-parent with Zelena.
As of right now, I don’t see Zelena going anywhere. So many used to say that Robin didn’t have a story besides Regina, but now he does…he has to set aside differences with the Wicked Witch to raise this child. The rape aspect will probably be brought up only once or twice by Adam and Eddy, and forever be dismissed.
This child may just unite and make OutlawQueen even stronger somehow, and after a lot of clashes and fight between WickedSisters, we may even see a scene where Regina actually helps Zelena with the child, who may surprisingly give us that bonding scene between sisters.
Season 5 could be about settling aside differences, and coming together.
Or is that #WishfulThinking?
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Hmm. Since when is a baby a magical device that bumps up the charisma stats of a disliked character?
Because A and E are obsessed with the idea of the sanctification of motherhood and motherhood as salvation trope.
Regina? Mother who had a hole in her heart until child.
Emma? Mother who broke a huge curse because of the love she born her son.
Cora? Mother who’s last words were that her daughter would have been enough.
Zelena? One redeemed mother coming up!
Ingrid? Foster mother looking to make two young girls (nieces/daughter stands in) into her sisters/daughters
Mal? Mother who was wronged when she lost her child and only wants her back
Snow? Decided to be heroes because they owed it to their daughter after their Lily incident.
(geez, typing all that out really drove the point home so I’ll just leave it there)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Because A and E are obsessed with the idea of the sanctification of motherhood and motherhood as salvation trope.
While I totally agree that motherhood as a Madonna trope is true to the story being told, I think that it can be expanded to fatherhood, too. Parenthood as a means of sanctification (with the exception of Peter Pan) is a recurring theme.
Rumple and Baelfire. Most notably, Rumple’s entire life mission until S3 was to find Baelfire, and to give his son another chance at happiness.
Baelfire and Henry. As soon as Neal discovered he was a dad, he hit the ground running to try and make up for lost time. He stepped up to the plate, and gave his life (twice) to save Henry.
Charming, Emma, and baby Neal. Charming “died” to save baby Emma to put her in the wardrobe. He is there for her, trying to make amends, and most of all, he believes in Emma. He literally died when Snow sacrificed his heart so that he could save his unborn child from the Wicked Witch.
Leopold and Snow White. It seems like Leo was happy and content with his daughter, and that she was his sole heir. He never presumed to try for a male heir with his second wife it seems. Snow as Leo’s golden child and heir apparent. That was a rare thing in patriarchal society like the EF.
Jefferson and Grace. Jefferson wanted to make a better life for his daughter so he agreed to Regina’s fool-hardy mission. Yet, he eventually found his way back to his daughter.
Geppetto and Pinocchio/August. Geppetto sent his boy into that wardrobe because he feared his son would turn back into a piece of wood or worse, when the dark curse hit. Sure, he lied, which meant Emma had to grow up without her mother. But still, he lied to save his child.
Robin Hood and Roland. Robin risked it all to save his pregnant wife from a mysterious ailment. If it hadn’t been for Robin daring his life to steal a fairy wand from the dark one, then Marian might not have survived long enough to give birth to Roland.
Alice and Alice’s dad from Wonderland. He didn’t believe her stories about Wonderland, but in the end, he came to see his daughter was right.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Parenthood as a means of sanctification (with the exception of Peter Pan) is a recurring theme.
I agree but you know what’s interesting, looking at your list? Apart from Rumple, none of those fathers were villains. Whereas–with the exception of Snow and Emma–all the mothers on my list were considered villains. The one truly villainous father that was also villain of the arc (Pan) was never redeemed.
They really like setting up a female villain and then giving that female villain some sort of mother-role that eventually gets her to redemption.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Parenthood as a means of sanctification (with the exception of Peter Pan) is a recurring theme.
I agree but you know what’s interesting, looking at your list? Apart from Rumple, none of those fathers were villains. Whereas–with the exception of Snow and Emma–all the mothers on my list were considered villains. The one truly villainous father that was also villain of the arc (Pan) was never redeemed. They really like setting up a female villain and then giving that female villain some sort of mother-role that eventually gets her to redemption.
Although of course, Rumple wasn’t a villain originally – just a weak man. In fact, it is interesting that he turns villainous precisely in order to save his son, so the narrative is kind of inversed in his case. But by and large, none of the father-child relationships have this salvational component. It seems like A&E keep reiterating a kind of “fallen woman” turned Madonna narrative. I wonder if they’re aware of this.
But by and large, none of the father-child relationships have this salvational component. It seems like A&E keep reiterating a kind of “fallen woman” turned Madonna narrative. I wonder if they’re aware of this.
Highly doubtful that they’re aware.
But you mention “fallen woman” and the thought occurs, how many of those saved-by-motherhood women had their downfall because of a man? And more to the point, a man who managed to get off scot-free, no punishment for his crimes?
The answer scared me.
Cora: The beginning of her “fall” begins with Jonathan, a man to whom she gave her virtue (gosh, her words not mine…this is a bad start…) only to have him reject her and their child. Cora was looking at life as a single mother and, in that day and age, a loose woman with questionable morals who slept with a man before marriage. Jonathan gets off without any punishment. He shoves (eek) Cora away and gets to walk away. Leopold is up next though he doesn’t necessarily contribute to Cora’s descent but he demonstrates how far Cora has fallen in choosing pure, virginal and pristine Eva over her, despite obviously having some serious feelings for Cora. Leo, of course, gets to live a somewhat happily ever after for a time being with a perfect wife and perfect daughter until–yup–Cora’s inserts herself once more for the sake of her daughter who was denied the life Cora wanted for herself and her child.
Zelena: Jonathan is, of course, the first man who starts Zelena’s descent and I’ve already touched on how he gets away without any sort of punishment. Zelena’s adopted father is a drunk but we never see him suffering for his mistreatment of Zelena; she bears the brunt of all that. Rumple is the big one here though, and of course he suffers greatly for his supposed part in Zelena’s downfall. But that, by and large, has more to do with the fact that Rumple/Bobby Carlyle is a series regular and can’t be sent off to Forgotten Character Island.
Ingrid: There are two men in Ingrid’s case. The man in the forest when she was a child who’s deeds did awaken her powers in a moment of great emotional turmoil. Now, yes, he did die so that’s a punishment. But instead of being proud of protecting her sisters, Ingrid grew fearful to the point where she locked herself away and considered herself a monster. The Duke of Wessleton is next…he molests and tries to force himself upon Ingrid which catapults her into accidentally killing her sister. Ingrid loses a sisters, gets sucked into an urn, but the Duke gets to walk away.
It’s hard for me to overly critical (I know, shocking) of the Madonna narrative because on the one hand, the first half of this series does show how beautifully it can be done with the likes of Emma and Regina when it comes to Henry. Emma kissing Henry’s forehead and breaking THE curse is still one of the best moments on this show.
But it’s rather alarming that the seasonal arc villains take the same path by and large. And that path is: women become villains through the actions of a man (who gets to walk away) and then are redeemed through child bearing or having their own child-inserts.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"But it’s rather alarming that the seasonal arc villains take the same path by and large. And that path is: women become villains through the actions of a man (who gets to walk away) and then are redeemed through child bearing or having their own child-inserts.
Milah is an interesting exception. She starts off being a mother, but abandons her child, and runs off with a rogue lover — we get the sense she’s not thrilled to be in her motherly/wifely role from the get go. The reason, however, isn’t that there’s something different about her, but that we are lead to assume that Rumple isn’t “man enough” (not brave, not a hero, not rich etc). By and large though, Milah ends badly (killed by her former husband no less), which interestingly really seals Rumple’s evilness, but somehow leaves Hook entirely exonerated from his responsibility as, essentially, a home-wrecker, and gives him a motivation to seek revenge to boot. In the end, Milah is a negative character because she abandons her son for presumably True Love — which, in her case, does not bring her redemption. By not embracing motherhood, Milah precipitates the entire Rumplestiltskin/Bae storyline.
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