Love and Romance on OUAT: What's the Message?

[RumplesGirl]

As many of you are probably aware, our favorite ships on ONCE–whatever they may be–often come under heavy criticism from other shippers who find the love story being told less than appealing. Most recently, one ship has come under heavy fire for perpetuation of rape culture. My issue with the overall discussion of this dilemma is that it feels restrictive in nature. Surely every ship has its problems and flaws. And then @Myril brought up a point, twice, in different threads: her own issue on the depiction and message of love and romance in Once Upon A Time, generally speaking and not directed at any ship whatsoever. That felt like safer ground rather than singling out one ship.

To begin, this is not a “defend your ship” thread! (Please don’t make it one. I’ll cry). Instead I want to look more broadly at how love and romance is presented on ONCE and whether or not there is an inherent message in the show about those two topics. When Adam and Eddy sit down and write these various romantic relationships, is there a message in mind or one that grows organically? Each ship, I think, has issues and I want to lay out two things: 1) the idea behind each ship, focusing on the most popular ones be they canon or not and 2) the problems that come with that ship. But most importantly, what message are we gleaning from ONCE about love and romance? Is it a positive one or a negative one?

I would argue that the overarching theme in ONCE is “good always wins” and while that’s perfectly fine in and of itself, it’s a bit trite and I’m not sure how it translates when we examine the nature of love and romance on ONCE. Please understand that I am simply pointing out arguments I see against each ship; I’ll be doing my own two OTP’s as well because I want this to be a fair discussion. AGAIN: I don’t want this to turn into a “defend your ship” thread, but focus on any messages of love and romance that ONCE is presenting.

Ready? Here we go.

Snow White and Prince Charming (Snowing)

Idea: the perfect true love

Problem: an almost obsessive, unable to exist outside of each other love. As of the end of S3B, Snow and Charming literally share a heart. If one of them dies, it’s likely that the other will drop dead as well. There have been times on the show when, given the choice between her husband or her child, Snow has declared her choice, easily, to be her husband. Now I’m not married nor do I have children so I don’t know if this considered normal (please chime in on this if you’re knowledgeable).  Is this sort of all consuming love healthy? Or natural? Or even possible?

Rumplestiltskin and Belle (Rumbelle)

Idea: A passionate love that saves a soul from the darkest of evils

Problem: At the end of S3B, Belle is either woefully ignorant or blind that she has married a man that is dangerously addicted to magic. He is a manipulative liar who, at the end of the season, has murdered another person even after professing that he has changed. Belle has said a few times that she loves all parts of Rumple, even the parts that belong to the darkness. Is this sort of blind acceptance of a person’s flaws good?

Nealfire Cassidy and Emma Swan (SwanFire)

Idea: Fate and Destiny, that you are inextricably linked to another person.

Problem: Sometimes the thing that draws you together ends up separating you when fate/destiny has other ideas that do not involve being together. This separation leads to anguish, trauma, and heartache. Does that make this type of love okay because giving it up was for the greater good?

Regina Mills and Robin Hood (OutlawQueen)

Idea: Soul Mates who got a second chance

Problem: Outside of “pixie dust say so” I’m not sure why these two are soul mates. Yes, they have a chemistry on screen but that’s wholly subjective. The time they spent together in the EF during the missing year was spent fighting and arguing as opposed to developing a love story. The love story in SB has been criticized as too fast and without proper cause. Is it really “soul mate” if it happens because deus ex machina pixie dust?

Captain Hook and Emma Swan (CaptainSwan)

Idea: Healing love that mends the wounds of the past

Problem (side note: we all know I don’t ship it, so I am trying for as much neutrality as possible): At times a violent opposition in which one party seems less interested than the other and only came together because of a revelation of what one person gave up in order to be with the other. Is there a price that you must pay for being with someone?

Regina Mills and Emma Swan (SwanQueen)

Idea: People can change and sexual orientation is not set in stone but is based on attraction and feelings.

Problem: Again, a violent opposition that ranges from caustic remarks to fist fighting to attempts at poisoning. There is also the issue of being family through marriage. Should we ignore the past entirely when choosing a mate?

I know there are other ships on this show. According to @Obisgirl and her magnificent list, we have well over 140+ ships. But the ones above are the most popular in the fandom and on this forum. I have tried my best to outline the problem with each ship as presented on the show.

So my big question is this: what is the message on Once Upon A Time when it comes to love and romance. Is there one? And if not, what does that say about our favorite show that centers on fairy tales, a genre of story that we all associate with love?

[obisgirl]

This thread sounds perfect for me 🙂

There’s a lot to think about here.  I love how you summarized the idea of each couple.

I’ll start with Snowing.

I think their love is a mix of healthy and unhealthy to be honest.

It’s still think a pure love but as you said, that episode where Snow sacrificed Charming’s heart to enact the curse and then in the next moment, took it back; that’s where I think it’s a kind of unhealthy love.  Because it negated Charming’s sacrifice.

I almost feel like if there was no way to bring Charming back to life at that point, Snow would have taken her own life.  Because what kind of life could she have without her true love and husband?

I don’t think suicide is a good thing but if Adam and Eddy went that route, it would be promoting a dangerous and unhealthy love.  Since you can’t live without this person, you have to take your own life in order to be together in death.

 

[PriceofMagic]

This seems like a very interesting topic RG 🙂

Something I would like to add for Snowing: In 3B Snowing seemed to take on a vibe of 1950s marriage. IE Snow stayed at home and popped out a baby whilst Charming went out and did the “important” things. When Snow offered to help, Charming told her to go home and let him deal with it. Very much in the vein of “don’t worry your pretty little head about it”

So my big question is this: what is the message on Once Upon A Time when it comes to love and romance. Is there one? And if not, what does that say about our favourite show that centres on fairy tales, a genre of story that we all associate with love?

On the whole, I think each couple on Once is meant to represent a different aspect of love in some way and sometimes these cross over. Like one of those little circle diagrams- I forget what they are called.

Snowing represents the loved up, can’t live without each other aspect

Rumbelle represents the loving someone even their flaws aspect

SwanFire represents the innocent first love aspect.

OutlawQueen represents the love after death aspect

CaptainSwan represents the second chance aspect

I’m not going to include any crack ships as I think a crack ship is very subjective. However crack ships would be its own interesting topic as everyone has their own reasons for shipping a particular pair of characters together even though it may never become canon, so it would be interesting to see why people like a crack ship without it becoming a shipping war. It doesn’t even have to involve hardcore shipping of a crack ship, just one that you like the idea of.

I think the message of Once in regards to love and romance is that there is no perfect relationship. Most fairytales end with “and they lived happily ever after” (usually as the characters get married). Once shows that even these “happily ever after” relationships have their ups and downs. For example, RumBelle fight and sometimes Rumple screws up big time, but they still love each other deeply.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[obisgirl]

On the whole, I think each couple on Once is meant to represent a different aspect of love in some way and sometimes these cross over. Like one of those little circle diagrams- I forget what they are called.

They’re called Venn Diagrams.

Snowing represents the loved up, can’t live without each other aspect Rumbelle represents the loving someone even their flaws aspect SwanFire represents the innocent first love aspect. OutlawQueen represents the love after death aspect CaptainSwan represents the second chance aspect.

I agree.

I think the message of Once in regards to love and romance is that there is no perfect relationship. Most fairytales end with “and they lived happily ever after” (usually as the characters get married). Once shows that even these “happily ever after” relationships have their ups and downs. For example, RumBelle fight and sometimes Rumple screws up big time, but they still love each other deeply.

I absolutely agree.

[callmeLola]

There have been times on the show when, given the choice between her husband or her child, Snow has declared her choice, easily, to be her husband. Now I’m not married nor do I have children so I don’t know if this considered normal (please chime in on this if you’re knowledgeable). Is this sort of all consuming love healthy? Or natural? Or even possible

I’m just going to throw in my two cents on the subject of Snowing. Sometimes their devotion to each other, to the exclusion of everyone else is beyond annoying. Their true love fairy tale, on paper at least, sounds like a beautiful thing, but in the real world things work differently.  I have been with my husband for almost 20 years now, married for 13 of them with two beautiful kids. He is my first love and the love of my life and I can’t imagine living without him. HOWEVER, if it came down to a choice between my husband or my kids, I would chose my kids, no hesitation. And 100% guaranteed, hubby would make the same choice. In my opinion, the love you have for your significant other does not trump the love or the responsibility you should have to your children.  I’m sure others may feel differently about it.  Snowing abandoned Emma once for “the greater good” and would have done so again back in NL if Charming was forced to remain there.  I rolled my eyes at that.  Why bother having kids if you’re just going to abandon them when things get tough?  While I agree that their relationship borders on unhealthy sometimes,and don’t get me wrong, I also enjoy seeing a couple who are truly devoted to each other.  Maybe for the sake of keeping thing real,  it wouldn’t hurt to see them in the midst of a stupid argument every once an a while (like naming their baby Leopold)

🙂

[callmeLola]

PriceofMagic wrote: I think the message of Once in regards to love and romance is that there is no perfect relationship. Most fairytales end with “and they lived happily ever after” (usually as the characters get married). Once shows that even these “happily ever after” relationships have their ups and downs. For example, RumBelle fight and sometimes Rumple screws up big time, but they still love each other deeply. I absolutely agree.

I second that!

[WickedRegal]

Snowing represents the loved up, can’t live without each other aspect

Rumbelle represents the loving someone even their flaws aspect

SwanFire represents the innocent first love aspect.

OutlawQueen represents the love after death aspect

CaptainSwan represents the second chance aspect

POM said it best!!

 

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[RumplesGirl]

I want to respond to this as much as possible, while also presenting a new idea to play with: the reality of the fantastical.

Responses first!

This thread sounds perfect for me 🙂

Yes, I thought of you while writing this.

 

Responses to Snowing

I’ll start with Snowing. I think their love is a mix of healthy and unhealthy to be honest.

Something I would like to add for Snowing: In 3B Snowing seemed to take on a vibe of 1950s marriage. IE Snow stayed at home and popped out a baby whilst Charming went out and did the “important” things. When Snow offered to help, Charming told her to go home and let him deal with it. Very much in the vein of “don’t worry your pretty little head about it”

I’m just going to throw in my two cents on the subject of Snowing. Sometimes their devotion to each other, to the exclusion of everyone else is beyond annoying. Their true love fairy tale, on paper at least, sounds like a beautiful thing, but in the real world things work differently. I have been with my husband for almost 20 years now, married for 13 of them with two beautiful kids. He is my first love and the love of my life and I can’t imagine living without him. HOWEVER, if it came down to a choice between my husband or my kids, I would chose my kids, no hesitation. And 100% guaranteed, hubby would make the same choice. In my opinion, the love you have for your significant other does not trump the love or the responsibility you should have to your children. I’m sure others may feel differently about it.

Thanks for the responses to that. I’ve never met anyone who flat out hates Snowing, but it seems that most of us find them annoying, to put it one way. They represent a kind of perfect love that is unattainable because it’s so unrealistic. And in other mediums, the kind of love Snowing exhibit might be borderline stalkerish and unhealthy!

For Example: who am I talking about in this example: a man and a woman who can’t live without each other; who, when one of them is absent for any given period of time, experience is an actual physical pain associated with not having your other half around; that everything must be done together or not at all?

Am I describing Snowing or am I describing Bella Swan and Edward Cullen from Twilight? One is held up as the quintessential true love while the other has become a meme of how not to love (Still a better love story than Twilight, anyone?)

Is the ONCE love displayed by Snowing different than the Bella/Edward pairing because ONCE is essentially about fairy tales? Do we accept Snowing’s love as more pure because of genre? And…is THAT okay?

Which brings me to this:

Snowing represents the loved up, can’t live without each other aspect

Rumbelle represents the loving someone even their flaws aspect

SwanFire represents the innocent first love aspect.

OutlawQueen represents the love after death aspect

CaptainSwan represents the second chance aspect

This is a nice break down and perhaps the overarching view of ONCE is that

I think the message of Once in regards to love and romance is that there is no perfect relationship. Most fairytales end with “and they lived happily ever after” (usually as the characters get married). Once shows that even these “happily ever after” relationships have their ups and downs. For example, RumBelle fight and sometimes Rumple screws up big time, but they still love each other deeply.

However, is this realistic? I agree that there no perfect relationships, but does anyone think that happy ever after isn’t going to come to these couples (barring SwanFire due to death). Let’s take two couples out of the television landscape and put them in reality. To make this FAIR, I’ll use two couples, one I ship and one I don’t.

Rumbelle

In the real world, Rumple would be a drug addict–alcohol, crack, meth, take your pick. He is danger to himself but more importantly, to those around him. And yet Belle stays in this troubled relationship and in fact loves the parts of Rumple that “belong to the darkness.” Belle, is an enabler. She’s the supportive girlfriend/wife who, in S3 at least, instead of giving an ultimatum (me or the drugs) tells him that she loves him no matter his flaws and blinds herself to some questionable behavior. While perhaps commendable, in the real world we would be telling her to get the heck out of dodge!

OutlawQueen

Do any of you have pixie dust? Cause I don’t. The criticism I see most often is that OQ happened way too fast; it was “snark snark kiss kiss LOVE.” In the real world, we wouldn’t call this soul mates; we would call it puppy love or infatuation. In the real world, we might be alarmed at how fast it moved or how quickly they wanted to give themselves to each other.

Okay, so back to my point: the reality in the fantastical. Most of you right now are probably crying foul and yelling, “oh come on! It’s just a silly little fantasy show!” And you’re right; it is. It is just a silly little fantasy show…that we spend HOURS of our lives devoted to. In our very real world, this show has left the fantasy and is encroaching on our reality.

Should we expect that these relationships have a measure of reality to them? Do they need to, in order to be believable? Or should we make them as fantastical as possible to dissociate from reality?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[obisgirl]

I’ve never met anyone who flat out hates Snowing, but it seems that most of us find them annoying, to put it one way. They represent a kind of perfect love that is unattainable because it’s so unrealistic. And in other mediums, the kind of love Snowing exhibit might be borderline stalkerish and unhealthy!

For Example: who am I talking about in this example: a man and a woman who can’t live without each other; who, when one of them is absent for any given period of time, experience is an actual physical pain associated with not having your other half around; that everything must be done together or not at all?

Am I describing Snowing or am I describing Bella Swan and Edward Cullen from Twilight? One is held up as the quintessential true love while the other has become a meme of how not to love (Still a better love story than Twilight, anyone?)

I never thought of that parallel before and I can’t stand Twilight. But it makes sense.

[PriceofMagic]

Is the ONCE love displayed by Snowing different than the Bella/Edward pairing because ONCE is essentially about fairy tales? Do we accept Snowing’s love as more pure because of genre? And…is THAT okay?

I don’t think it’s just genre at play here but also how well the characters are played and written. Bella and Edward were not very engaging to say the least. Snowing have a bit more emotional range to them. Also Snow is older than Bella so people don’t necessarily see Snow as a foolish girl. Snowing could easily be unlikeable much like Bella and Edward, however it is the talents of Josh and Ginny that make Snowing likeable (although Snow was kind of pushing it in 3B).

However, is this realistic? I agree that there no perfect relationships, but does anyone think that happy ever after isn’t going to come to these couples (barring SwanFire due to death). Let’s take two couples out of the television landscape and put them in reality. To make this FAIR, I’ll use two couples, one I ship and one I don’t.

Rumbelle

In the real world, Rumple would be a drug addict–alcohol, crack, meth, take your pick. He is danger to himself but more importantly, to those around him. And yet Belle stays in this troubled relationship and in fact loves the parts of Rumple that “belong to the darkness.” Belle, is an enabler. She’s the supportive girlfriend/wife who, in S3 at least, instead of giving an ultimatum (me or the drugs) tells him that she loves him no matter his flaws and blinds herself to some questionable behavior. While perhaps commendable, in the real world we would be telling her to get the heck out of dodge!

OutlawQueen

Do any of you have pixie dust? Cause I don’t. The criticism I see most often is that OQ happened way too fast; it was “snark snark kiss kiss LOVE.” In the real world, we wouldn’t call this soul mates; we would call it puppy love or infatuation. In the real world, we might be alarmed at how fast it moved or how quickly they wanted to give themselves to each other.

If RumBelle were a real life couple, I think they would form a co-dependent relationship. They love each other, that is without question, however Belle wouldn’t want to give up on Rumple so she would start exercising some control over his drug. Rumple’s going to do it anyway, so Belle would rather he did it with her knowledge, where she can reign him back in if he starts going too far, rather than him indulging behind her back. Rumple’s going to work out pretty quickly that if he’s on his best behaviour, then it would be easier to convince Belle to let him indulge in his drug a little bit. That then becomes a cycle. Rumple is good, Belle won’t give up on him and lets him indulge a little bit. Rumple behaves himself, Belle gives him his drug and she stays with him.

I’m struggling to envision Outlaw Queen as a real life couple. There isn’t enough foundation there to be able to transfer them to a real life setting. We might be shown more stuff on them from the missing year that will help flesh that out. Someone else is probably better at discussing them than me.

Okay, so back to my point: the reality in the fantastical. Most of you right now are probably crying foul and yelling, “oh come on! It’s just a silly little fantasy show!” And you’re right; it is. It is just a silly little fantasy show…that we spend HOURS of our lives devoted to. In our very real world, this show has left the fantasy and is encroaching on our reality.

Should we expect that these relationships have a measure of reality to them? Do they need to, in order to be believable? Or should we make them as fantastical as possible to dissociate from reality?

I think the relationships need to be identifiable with the audience so they have to have some measure of reality to them. However, people also watch the show as a form of escapism, they want to get lost in this fantasy world so you can’t make it too reality based. it’s a fine line to walk.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

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