Love and Romance on OUAT: What's the Message?

[Jenna_B]

Jenna_B wrote:

I’m hoping we see the show re-focus on Henry as a central character, since everyone and their mother is related to the kid, and watch various characters’ relationships with Henry develop – primarily his relationship with Rumple.

*snarky RG comment here that is only acceptable because @Jenna_B and I like each other*

Haha!  Hey, now, you know my comment about Rumple & Henry is only because it’s what’s possible based on canon!  I may not ship SF romantically, but I still haven’t forgiven A&E for taking away a beautiful co-parenting friendship, my favorite BroTP and most importantly, an awesome break the Stiltskin cycle father-son relationship!!  GRRRRRR….but happier thoughts, happier thoughts…

Yes, this is something to take into consideration. The characters are mostly archetypes and exist in a mythic way, meaning that their actions match what we expect “villains” and anti heroes do in a mythic realm. HOWEVER, this is a show about those mythic figures existing in our reality, so I can’t dissociate entirely from their actions because it gives those characters–Regina, Hook, Rumple–license to do whatever they want simply because “they are fairy tale characters”

Good point…but I think you have to put it in context…you mentioned that these characters are in our world…but are they really?  Or are they living in some kind of cross-land that happens to inhabit our world?  Meaning – even in Kansas (I think) they mentioned the sheriff’s office’s security was on beta (hehehe) but they have other modern day technologies, like cell phones…the clothes are somewhat modern but Rumple and Regina’s cars are not…only what?  3 of them can cross the town line without losing their memories?  So…while they are technically here, I don’t know that our laws/ethics completely apply…I think in EF, if you truly are repentant, you are technically redeemed…so therefore, I think I give a little more leeway to the villains, provided they are ACTUALLY repentant and redeemed.

I…hesitate here because this is not a defend your ship thread and if it turns into this I’m going cry. And we all know I don’t ship CS. So this is going to brief and with the understanding that I’m respond to the overall idea not bashing the ship. But, there is a difference between learning that your partner doesn’t actually like your lasagna or prefers a certain kind of laundry detergent and learning that your partner has committed the kind of crimes Hook/Rumple/Regina have.

In regard to lies of omission…Belle is kind of off on her own…but in regard to Robin and Emma – yes, each relationship needs to confront a major issue.  Personally, I feel Regina’s almost-killing Marian is more difficult to overcome for obvious reasons….Hook’s actions regarding Ariel aren’t pretty but in the end, she did find Eric and I admit, I can justify his choosing his ship over some girl he just met….(and yes, conceding the CS/Hook goggles are on when I say that so I know there are lots of arguments against the same!  No ill feelings toward any anti-Hookers or CSers!  No tears from our Keymaster intended!!! 🙂 )

[RumplesGirl]

Good point…but I think you have to put it in context…you mentioned that these characters are in our world…but are they really? Or are they living in some kind of cross-land that happens to inhabit our world? Meaning – even in Kansas (I think) they mentioned the sheriff’s office’s security was on beta (hehehe) but they have other modern day technologies, like cell phones…the clothes are somewhat modern but Rumple and Regina’s cars are not…only what? 3 of them can cross the town line without losing their memories? So…while they are technically here, I don’t know that our laws/ethics completely apply…I think in EF, if you truly are repentant, you are technically redeemed…so therefore, I think I give a little more leeway to the villains, provided they are ACTUALLY repentant and redeemed.

Ah, think about this: even if they are in some sort of cross-land doesn’t that mean that the reality and fantasy should be given equal weight? I cannot dismiss an act of violence because a fairy tale character did it, but condemn a non-fairy tale character for doing the same thing simply because “not mythic.” It’s segregation. This is like super extreme but follow me: how long until the non-fairy tale characters are rounded up for being inferior and put into ghettos? Everyone is equal under the law unless we want to start saying that some people are more entitled to privilege than others.

n regard to lies of omission…Belle is kind of off on her own…but in regard to Robin and Emma – yes, each relationship needs to confront a major issue. Personally, I feel Regina’s almost-killing Marian is more difficult to overcome for obvious reasons….Hook’s actions regarding Ariel aren’t pretty but in the end, she did find Eric and I admit, I can justify his choosing his ship over some girl he just met….(and yes, conceding the CS/Hook goggles are on when I say that so I know there are lots of arguments against the same! No ill feelings toward any anti-Hookers or CSers! No tears from our Keymaster intended!!! 🙂 )

Let’s just stay with this in the general sense then because all three relationships at present have the “what happens if the lie is discovered” aspect at play.

Option 1.A

Belle learns that Rumple killed Zelena and decides she doesn’t care. @Jenna_B said, and others like @Myril and @Gaultheria have said in this thread that makes her equally guilty and “bad” as Rumple who committed the actual crime.

Option 1.B

Belle learns that Rumple killed Zelena and leaves Rumple because he lied and clearly hasn’t changed. This is obviously the better option. But what happens if she goes back, is it one more strike and your out? How many strikes? How many mistakes before Rumple’s a lost cause?

Option 2. A

Emma learns that during the lost year, Hook killed Blackbeard for his ship and decides she doesn’t care. How can we, on the one hand, condemn Belle for not caring and place equal culpability at her door, but not do the same with Emma? Granted, Hook and Emma were not in a relationship, but should Emma not care at all that the man she’s dating (and whom she lets her son hang out with) has murdered someone very recently? (yes, this works with regards to Emma and Henry with Rumple too…but that’s a thread for another day, coming eventually…)

Option 2.B

Pretty much the exact same thing, only replace Belle with Emma and Rumple with Hook.

Option 3.A

Robin learns that Regina killed Marian in an aborted timeline and that the only reason Marian is not dead now is because of Emma. Further, he learns that Regina is going after Marian again (and possibly Emma for “ruining” her happy ending). Robin decides he doesn’t care, cause soul mates. Again, how can we lay equal culpability at Belle’s door for not caring, but not have it carry over in this situation?

Option 3.B

You know the drill.

My overarching point is not to bash any single ship but rather to help show something we all know which is our shipping bias. But more than that, once again, what the HECK IS THE MORAL OF ONCE UPON A TIME WHEN IT COMES TO LOVE AND ROMANCE?!?!?!??!?! *RG is tired*

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

We’ve seen in S1 and S3, when Emma and Regina each broke a curse with TL kiss with Henry, so in OUAT-verse, we have learned TL is not limited to romantic love.

My question on this though is you’re only meant to have one true love at any one time. So if Emma was able to TLK Henry in season 1 and now Regina has TLK him in season 3, does that mean TLK between Emma and Henry no longer works? Plus since TLK has to be a two-way thing, does that mean that Henry doesn’t truly love Emma any more or vice versa?

While I don’t think Snow’s desire to have another child because they missed out on raising Emma is as heinous as some do, I DO have a huge problem with Snow’s declaration that she would stay in NL with Charming as opposed to return to SB with Emma.

The problem isn’t so much that Snow wanted another child, the problem is that her reasons seemed less “I’d like the chance to actually be a mother and raise a child” and more “You’re not cute and cuddly anymore Emma, I want another child that I can play mom to since you grew up”. Snow even said that the current relationship she has with Emma is “not what I wanted” just because Emma isn’t all touchy feely with her. Snow was basically telling her own daughter, who has massive trust and abandonment issues, that the relationship they share isn’t good enough for her. It seemed like Snow was blaming Emma for not getting the chance to be her mother.

Outlaw Queen — the ‘because the pixie dust told me so’ justification is, indeed, weak. I think I can buy Outlaw Queen, not because pixie dust says they’re TL, but because they ARE in the beginning of a relationship. It’s new and until Marian came back, they hadn’t moved past the ‘honeymoon stage’ where everything is roses and wonderful and love is love and blah blah let’s-make-everyone-around-us-vomit. I do buy the instant attraction – and even the snippets of the lost year in the EF that we’ve seen show 2 people who are attracted to each other, though begrudgingly. I don’t buy they’re actually in love yet, because I don’t buy the whole pixie dust is omniscient spiel. And they’re obviously about to hit a huge….hurdle….in their relationship.

We might get some more missing year scenes between Robin and Regina to show why they wee so drawn to each other. However what bothers me most about them is that Robin was completely unbothered by the fact that Regina was “the evil Queen”. There wasn’t even a stage where he was a bit wary of her but okay with her when he got to know her. He knew she was the evil Queen as well but he just jumped into “you’re hot” territory. Also it just seemed to be a bit unrealistic that Regina would give her heart to Robin as easily as she did considering that, as far as she remembered, she’d never met him before and Storybrooke was the first time they had interacted. Within a couple of days, Regina is willing to leave her heart in the hands of some guy who doesn’t really have any way to protect it other than hiding it within camp.

3A Regina was great, 3B Regina was almost annoying especially when it seemed like her whole “redemption” was only because she was in love with Robin. Like Rumple, Regina can never be fully good, it just doesn’t suit them.

RumBelle — Belle, Belle, Belle. I do actually find this relationship toxic.

I really disagree with this.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[PriceofMagic]

My overarching point is not to bash any single ship but rather to help show something we all know which is our shipping bias. But more than that, once again, what the HECK IS THE MORAL OF ONCE UPON A TIME WHEN IT COMES TO LOVE AND ROMANCE?!?!?!??!?! *RG is tired*

Perhaps the question shouldn’t be what is THE moral of love and romance on Once but what is A moral of love and romance on Once? I don’t think there is any one moral of love and romance on Once. It isn’t one size fits all.

For example: Captain Swan. It is a very divisive ship. Some love it, some hate it and some aren’t bothered either way. What’s their moral? That if your persistent enough, eventually your quarry will give in to your demands? That if you continuously reaffirm your love and devotion to another, eventually they’ll reciprocate? That two people share chemistry so why not put them together?

On a thread about What’s the message of love and romance on Once, it’s impossible to completely not bring shipping into it because shipping is love. It’s the love the fans have for a particular pairing, everyone has their OTP and crack!pairings. Why do you like a particular couple but not another? Everyone takes a different message from Once.

For example, you can ask a CSer why they like CS over SF and you can ask a SF why they like SF over CS. Both will give different responses based on their interpretations and both will probably give the same answer but in opposite ways. For example, the CSer might say they love how Hook never gave up on Emma even when she was pushing him away, whilst the SFer might say that they hate how Hook continued to pursue Emma even when she told him she wasn’t interested.

Nobody is going to ship a couple that they feel have a “bad” message attached to them. We all have our own OTP on the show. What is the message YOU take away from Once when it comes to love and romance?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Perhaps the question shouldn’t be what is THE moral of love and romance on Once but what is A moral of love an romance on Once? I don’t think there is any one moral of love and romance on Once. It isn’t one size fits all.

Here’s the problem: if Adam and Eddy don’t have a moral behind their own story, in their eyes, and they are leaving it up to fans to speculate then that’s incredibly bad storytelling. The author needs a message, even if it’s one I disagree with. That’s fine, I can disagree with their message all I want, but yes the author should have an understanding and a clear vision/message behind their story.

Yes everything is text and the “author is dead” but the author still has a voice, it’s just not an omniscient voice that existed before the text. Adam and Eddy do not seem to have a moral for love and romance on their own show. That’s problematic.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

I disagree. I’d call it audience participation. For example, when your reading a story, do you get a detailed description of what a character is wearing every time they change clothes or do you get given some bare details and then your imagination fills in the blanks so that you can actually picture what the character is wearing?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

I disagree. I’d call it audience participation. For example, when your reading a story, do you get a detailed description of what a character is wearing every time they change clothes or do you get given some bare details and then your imagination fills in the blanks so that you can actually picture what the character is wearing?

Wholly and completely different things. Your example is minute details; this is critical thematic analysis. Audience participation is shipping, critical analysis is looking at the text as a whole to see what the authorial voice might be saying about the work.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

Thing is though, what A&E might say the theme of the show is, is not how you interpret the show. (using you as a general term not a personal one) 🙂

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Thing is though, what A&E might say the theme of the show is, is not how you interpret the show. (using you as a general term not a personal one)

And that’s the biggest cop out they could take, TBH.

Authorial voice is important. In our post modern world it is not the end all be all of interpretation, but it is there. The author still has a voice, but I am allowed to disagree with his voice and provide my own, thus making up everything that is “text.” But if A and E want to say that they have no voice and that it’s all interpretation then they’ve given away their own agency for the text they created and that’s…crap.

This video is a really great example of authorial intent in another show and how the author still has a voice, even if we disagree with it.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[obisgirl]

Okay, I think I know what the problem is here and I don’t think it has to do with Adam and Eddy’s writing, but what we’re trying to do here; which is look for a general theme about love that fits all couples on the show.

Which is impossible to do because not every couple is the same. There is overlapping of themes, but not everyone is the same. Even Emma said that her life experience is different from their parents and its going to be that way with every character.

But this is still a very good discussion to have.

[Author]

Posts