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I apologise in advance for this mammoth post being mammoth- I went through the last 9ish pages!
Because you wrote such a long post I feel obligated to respond given that this was my thread to begin with.
Most of us would never choose to date/marry/love someone who has committed killed/murder in cold blood, but do as many of us have a problem with choosing to date/marry/love a solider who has killed (murdered) in cold blood in war? How about someone who commits an act of murder to ‘protect’ someone else? Deceit acts in much the same way- if you yourself are a former criminal for instance, does a futures partners life of crime hold the same stigma, as it would for someone who has never lived that lifestyle?
While this is a good point, to look back at the show, them murders committed were not done in the name of war (outside of Charming fighting for the Kingdom) but done for a specific malicious reason: punishment, to silence someone, to take something from that person.
o what I’m saying is, it is possible that ONCE isnt really loosing it’s basic moral message at all, but that some fans are having a harder time seeing it now, after feeling so let down this season?
You’re right. This plays in. But I’m going to turn it back on you: is it possible that ONCE really IS loosing it’s basic moral message but that some fans are having a harder time seeing it because they’re getting exactly what they want be it in character form or ship form?
Canonically he didnt “steal” Milah- Milah asked to go with him- A&E made that point a few times. Just to make this clear- I’m NOT defending a ship- I’m defending fact. I think for this thread to stay civilized, we need to stick with cannon/fact when it’s been laid out for us.
I happen to agree with you. Milah ran off and we need to remember that.
I really hope I dont get bashed for this- but isnt part of what happened with Neal supposed to show, sometimes no matter how much we hope & dream for something, it might not work out. The same could be said of Zelena & Cora I suppose, but Neal’s was more ‘realistic’ (body time sharing aside).
Absolutely. And I can acknowledge that. But—this is a thread for another time perhaps–the moral message of killing Neal vs other characters (no one in particular!) Take love and romance out of this entirely. What we have with Neal was a lost boy who was abused and mistreated and abandoned but who, when he discovered he was a father, stepped up INSTANTLY like a MAN and took on responsibilities. I’m sure many of us are aware (perhaps painfully so) of how rare that is in this day and age. So the morality of killing off a good man, a good father, a good son, a good friend, but letting others who have committed acts that in any reality are heinous leaves me pondering what the moral message of ONCE is. Especially if A and E want to harp on hope.
What you get out of the show is entirely subjective.
Well, I never said it wasn’t. Everyone is going to take away something different, including the authors. Their voice still matters. In my post modern world, I am allowed to disagree with the authors and provide my own interpretation to make up the full weight of “text” but my point is that I don’t think the authors even have an interpretation or a clear idea of their own text anymore.
I must admit having read this thread from pg 3 onwards, it really does seem to be going around in massive circles, every time something gets answered, there’s more questions that seem to eventually lead back to much the original rounds of questions, just in a slightly different format
No it’s a giant circle which is why we put this thread on hiatus, but I understand why you chose to respond to all the pages.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"So what I’m saying is, it is possible that ONCE isnt really loosing it’s basic moral message at all, but that some fans are having a harder time seeing it now, after feeling so let down this season?
This is a very good point. Once is a very subjective show, hence why so many people ship different pairings. Also there is no black and white morals on this show, it’s all shades of grey. Sometimes characters do the wrong thing for the right reason, such as Snow killing Cora, and sometimes they do the right thing for the wrong reason such as Snow telling Emma about Neal in Neverland.
If you’re feeling disappointed in a show, the negative aspects seem to stick out more, whereas when you’re enjoying a show, you tend to overlook its flaws unless they’re really obvious. The body switching CGI was just horrible.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI found this article retweeted from OnceUponAFan, and I think it’s an interesting article to look at regarding this thread:
http://www.4ye.co.uk/2014/09/21/4ye-presents11-lessons-once-upon-a-time-teaches-women/
We all know Once Upon a Time has a penchant for sappiness and sugarcoating. That doesn’t mean the show doesn’t also have some very valuable advice though. Here, for better or for worse, are eleven lessons Once has taught women.
1. Don’t have affairs. We get that Captain Hook is a swaggering sex-bomb who could woo any woman, so it makes sense on a hormonal level for Milah to ditch Rumple for the pirate. But her decision not only got her killed but sent her beloved down the evil path and caused her hubby to become the Dark One. For the sake of mankind, keep it monogamous people.
2. Family matters. In the pilot episode, Emma had the choice between staying in Storybrooke to be near Henry (and suss out the weird stuff happening in town) or leaving. She chose Henry, which set off a chain of events culminating in her reunion with her parents. You might think your job or independence is the most important thing but it’s not; your family is.
3. You don’t need a man to save you. Just in case Katniss and Hermione Granger haven’t already beat this into your skull, take a look at Mulan and Belle. They use their smarts and skills to take care of business, like rescuing princes and wizards. So pick up a bow or sword or book and be the heroine, not the damsel.
4. Wait for your true love. Thank you Cora for this important lesson. Just because he says he’s a prince and he looks good in the dim lighting of a bar, doesn’t mean you should hook up with him. You might miss out on a happy marriage to a real prince and instead end up giving birth to a future psycho witch. Or whatever.
5. No relationship is perfect. Even when you have found your True Love, being together still takes work. Even the practically perfect Charmings get into marital spats. You’re not going to agree or get along with your significant other all the time, and that’s good. If you are, you’re doing it wrong.
6. Revenge isn’t worth it. We’ve all been there. Some snooty girl steals your man or your job. Maybe someone insults or hurts you. Naturally you want to even the score but according to Once, this never works out the way we want. Remember how Cora wanted vengeance so bad she ripped out her own heart, making her incapable of loving her daughter? Yeah, don’t do that.
7. Don’t try to be a superwoman. We’ll call this a mixed message. On the one hand, Once provides us with examples (i.e. Aurora) of women who usually need others to save them. Then there’s Emma, who is annoyingly stubborn about trying to do everything herself. So find the happy medium by being an independent woman who is confident enough to realize it’s okay to ask for help.
8. Your love can “fix” men. This would fall in the “less realistic” category but there’s no denying Once has this message at its core. As much as we love Rumple, Hook, Neal, and every other “redeemed” OUAT guy with a shady past, don’t go assuming you can change your man. Not everyone has a heart of gold buried beneath their darkness.
9. Life is not a fairytale. Considering Once is a run on Disney-owned ABC, you would think there would be a lot more happy endings. In reality, the show reminds us time again, whether you’re a princess, a witch, or an orphan, happiness isn’t guaranteed and sometimes life is rotten. Even so, in life, like on OUAT, everything really does happen for a reason, and you never know when things are going to take a turn for the better.
10. Misery does not need company. We know the saying goes that misery in fact loves company but as OUAT has shown us, it’s kind of pointless. Also, from an audience’s point of view, it’s really tiresome. Here’s looking at you, Regina.
11. Be proud of who you are. Ruby is a werewolf who accidentally ate her boyfriend. Snow White was a bandit, Emma a jailbird, and Regina the Evil Queen. But those setbacks and labels don’t have to define you, unless you let them. Choose to be awesome, no matter what you’ve done in the past. As Ruby told the conflicted Dr. Whale, “We can’t let [our past] stop us.”
Feel free to comment on this list.
8. Your love can “fix” men. This would fall in the “less realistic” category
Gee ya think?
9. Life is not a fairytale. Considering Once is a run on Disney-owned ABC, you would think there would be a lot more happy endings. In reality, the show reminds us time again, whether you’re a princess, a witch, or an orphan, happiness isn’t guaranteed and sometimes life is rotten. Even so, in life, like on OUAT, everything really does happen for a reason, and you never know when things are going to take a turn for the better.
With the exception of Neal, every single character is getting a happy ending. If you believe otherwise, I have a bridge to sell you.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"If you’re feeling disappointed in a show, the negative aspects seem to stick out more, whereas when you’re enjoying a show, you tend to overlook its flaws unless they’re really obvious. The body switching CGI was just horrible.
Sure, one can wear “black” glasses, but also one can wear pink glasses and see even things that are critical in softening light or not see them at all. It goes both ways. I am not sorry for being probably a pain in the behind by now, pointing out that the show as problems (and I am not even missing Neal neither mourning him).
And wish it were just some bad CGI as flaws. The CGI and special effects in most TV shows make me at best laugh, often enough cringe, but even big screen is not that much better at times. The question in matters of CGI and special effects is to me more, was it something necessary for the story or just show off, I don’t expect perfection, even less if is is done for the story. I do like a good visual but I don’t watch shows/film for CGI parade. See and notice plenty of bad CGI on small and big screen regardless if I liked or disliked the show or movie. That is not the point, and think I am not the only having bigger issues with the show than such flawed minor details.
Thanks for the link, @MatthewPaul, interesting view in that article. There is more I would comment on but will keep it to the relationship related stuff here:
1. Don’t have affairs. We get that Captain Hook is a swaggering sex-bomb who could woo any woman, so it makes sense on a hormonal level for Milah to ditch Rumple for the pirate. But her decision not only got her killed but sent her beloved down the evil path and caused her hubby to become the Dark One. For the sake of mankind, keep it monogamous people.
Not the lesson I see in that, reading it this way misses the point even IMO. Monogamy is no guarantee that people are honest with each other – but if there is something in Milah’s and Rumple’s story I think it is: Be honest with yourself and with others and particular your partner(s), friends, family. And accept that not every relationship works out staying together, sometimes it might be better for all involved to part in time.
Aside that there is a very different message in it, Milah was not the least bit responsible for Rumpel turning Dark One, he likely would have done so even if she’d stayed with him, after all he did it to protect Bae from being made a soldier – and the Ogre war was sure raging regardless what Milah did. But interesting to see how Milah is in the eyes of some responsible for what her husband became, and seen as solely responsible for the failure of their marriage. Pin the scarlet letter on Milah and shame the witch, she got herself killed and might have even deserved it. That is victim blaming in the worst form. Not saying what Milah did was right, but neither was what Rumple did, and meaning not just what he did in the end to her. But while Milah left him alone with his son but giving him a chance to still find a happy life, Rumple murdered his wife. Thanks for repeating the centuries old view, that women are the ones messing things up, are the original sinners (maybe you remember that thing that allegedly happened in paradise). That is such an empowerment of women. Not.
2. Family matters. In the pilot episode, Emma had the choice between staying in Storybrooke to be near Henry (and suss out the weird stuff happening in town) or leaving. She chose Henry, which set off a chain of events culminating in her reunion with her parents. You might think your job or independence is the most important thing but it’s not; your family is.
Just let forget that leaving Storybrooke was for Emma not a matter of job or independence but a matter of unresolved emotions. Why care. Let us reduce it to a formalistic view and tell women their family is the most important thing in their lives. Let’s stick with the message already told for long on screen and elsewhere: stay at home, with your family, women (and know where your place is), you can’t have it all. No, don’t think that is the message in the show, but a message one could read out of that interpretation. Family is important, no beef there, though would family not limit to traditional definitions ( as in parents, children, siblings, blood related or adopted, here are other possibilities), but as important is to be yourself and have your own worth in yourself. For some the tool for that is a job. And what independence means is a freedom to decide and it means to be respected, it means to be and to be seen as a person on your very own right and not be reduced and limited to be an appendix of your spouse, family, clan, nation, or whatever. That doesn’t mean you have to be alone and don’t care and feel no responsibilities for others. You are of less good use for your family if you stay with them out of some felt obligation. Your family is really important to you if you stay without feeling any obliged to, when you are an independent person with the freedom to decide and you decide to stay because you care – what Emma did for Henry.
3. You don’t need a man to save you. Just in case Katniss and Hermione Granger haven’t already beat this into your skull, take a look at Mulan and Belle. They use their smarts and skills to take care of business, like rescuing princes and wizards. So pick up a bow or sword or book and be the heroine, not the damsel.
Right, no woman needs a man to save her. We can do everything on our own. Sometimes the sword is the tool and sometimes a book or a quill is the right thing. And different from what plenty of men hero movies have told for decades, it’s absolutely okay not to do it all alone but as a team, you don’t need to be a lonesome cowboy (cowgirl) to be cool. It’s good to have friends. To find the true love is not all that there is in life. And your true love is for sure not the only person able to help you with things.
4. Wait for your true love. Thank you Cora for this important lesson. Just because he says he’s a prince and he looks good in the dim lighting of a bar, doesn’t mean you should hook up with him. You might miss out on a happy marriage to a real prince and instead end up giving birth to a future psycho witch. Or whatever.
No, don’t wait for your true love. He or she might pass you, because you’ve looked so hard around all time, that you missed seeing the right person walked just by. And even if you did see the right person, it still takes effort and work to build true love. True love is no apple falling into your lab to consume, it’s a never ending process. See Snow and David. But right, the charming guy courting you is not always the right guy, no matter if you’re looking for true love or just for a comfortable life with riches. Don’t wait for a white knight to fulfill your dreams, take care of them yourself before you turn you into a bitter and then evil doing person.
5. No relationship is perfect. Even when you have found your True Love, being together still takes work. Even the practically perfect Charmings get into marital spats. You’re not going to agree or get along with your significant other all the time, and that’s good. If you are, you’re doing it wrong.
See, I agree. But you might never come into the dilemma to wonder, what’s going on after you find your true love (or think that is the one person), if you never in the first place believed, that true love is something you only have to find and all will be good, but knew it is something you have to build an can build with someone.
6. Revenge isn’t worth it. We’ve all been there. Some snooty girl steals your man or your job. Maybe someone insults or hurts you. Naturally you want to even the score but according to Once, this never works out the way we want. Remember how Cora wanted vengeance so bad she ripped out her own heart, making her incapable of loving her daughter? Yeah, don’t do that.
If you really can’t help it and want to take revenge or look for some feeling of justice, then at least turn to the people, who actually messed up your life, and not bully some scapegoat. Taking it out on the scapegoat is a sure way to let yourself be turned into a tool, only ensuring that the wrong people get their will and keep their power.
8. Your love can “fix” men. This would fall in the “less realistic” category but there’s no denying Once has this message at its core. As much as we love Rumple, Hook, Neal, and every other “redeemed” OUAT guy with a shady past, don’t go assuming you can change your man. Not everyone has a heart of gold buried beneath their darkness.
I don’t want to fix anyone nor do I even think we could. At best we can strive to support people to heal themselves, but we can’t do that for them. But do I get that right, that this lesson is seen in the show but judged as not so realistic? Would agree on that, but not just as truth for women about men, it’s a general truth. After all shouldn’t forget the other main regular villain (or greyish villhero) Regina in the picture. Love doesn’t conquer all.
9. Life is not a fairytale. Considering Once is a run on Disney-owned ABC, you would think there would be a lot more happy endings. In reality, the show reminds us time again, whether you’re a princess, a witch, or an orphan, happiness isn’t guaranteed and sometimes life is rotten. Even so, in life, like on OUAT, everything really does happen for a reason, and you never know when things are going to take a turn for the better.
Kinda agree. But some things don’t happen for a reason, they just happen, though we can give what follows meaning. No, there is never any guarantee for anything, not for the evil to go to hell nor for the good to get a happy ending. Not even in fairy tales, they all have to do things and succeed on their quest to get their happy ending, which not always is reduced to being a romance (we sometimes skip to the happy ending and overlook the effort it takes). Fairy tales are not even just princess is saved by prince stories and they get happily married ever after, a lot of fairy tales are about other things, and getting the princess is often enough only the extra award in the end, not the story or the core of the story.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
This will definitely add to our discussion here. OnceUponaFan staff writer, Diane Reed put up an announcement on twitter that she would be interviewing Adam and Eddy and I put in some questions, which actually got asked in the interview.
Here are Adam and Eddy’s answers:
Diane: Yay! Okay, the Robin/Marian/Regina triangle is already happening. One fan who goes by Obisgirl (@_obisgirl) had a fabulous question: she’d like to know if there’s a difference to you as writers between soulmates and true love—is Robin necessarily the ONLY man for Regina?
Eddy: You know, it’s funny—we got asked that at Comic Con as our first question. And we were caught in the headlights. I think that one thing we’ve tried to show on Once Upon a Time, and especially with Regina’s arc, is that you CAN love again. So we know that Daniel was her true love when she was a young woman. And it was said that Robin Hood is her soulmate. And globally what we’re trying to say is that happiness isn’t always what you think it will be or with whom you hope it will be. But if you keep striving for it, you can find it. So for us, soulmates and true love are secondary to the idea that when things get bleak, you have to hope that they’ll get better.
Adam: And things can change! Meaning that true loves and soulmates can point you in a direction, but magic doesn’t provide it for you. Which is to say that you have to work at it. You have to make things happen. Nothing is easy. And a happy ending isn’t an ending—it’s a beginning. So with someone who may be your soulmate, the two of you still have to find a way to make that work. You know, Snow and Charming were true loves, but because they were able work together on that love, their love became as powerful as it was. There’s always the hope out there of striving to find what you need.
Eddy: For us, what it would imply is “Oh well, if you lose your soulmate you can never be happy again.” And that’s not the world we want to live in.
Excuse me if I’m still very happy and excited that my question got asked, so my thoughts aren’t necessarily cohesive at the moment.
But the gist I understand from this, that true love and soul mates are similar in that they are both things you work towards. Just because Robin is Regina’s soulmate, does not necessarily mean a happy ending is going to plop into her lap. Case in point, 3×22 finale when Marian came back. As we’ve seen with true love, Snow and Charming, they didn’t have their happy ending right away. It took time before they got there. They had to fight..literally just to be together.
Any other thoughts?
And globally what we’re trying to say is that happiness isn’t always what you think it will be or with whom you hope it will be. But if you keep striving for it, you can find it.
Look, I agree with this on a very basic level. Yes, your happy ending may not be what you thought it was. Fine, point well made. My issue is that for A and E and ONCE the “happy ending” always always gets wrapped up in finding your true love/soulmate/penguin/whatever else they want to label this as. Which is crap. Also, crap is that “if you keep striving…you can find it.” Nope, sorry. I live in the real world where more often than not people do not get true loves or soul mates or happy endings but must stumble through life confused and daunted and trying every day to figure out what the greater purpose is and never really discovering it.
So, A and E, you have a sugar coated rainbows and unicorns vision of this world. Good for you. Too bad it’s 1oo% pure fantasy fluff and you’ve lost the real.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"My issue is that for A and E and ONCE the “happy ending” always always gets wrapped up in finding your true love/soulmate/penguin/whatever else they want to label this as. Which is crap.
It is annoying that happy endings seem to be equated with romance on this show. At the same time, certain characters have not yet, and may never, get their happy ending in the form of romance: (i.e. Tinkerbell, Lancelot, Grumpy, Nova, Blue, Ruby, Dr. Whale, Jefferson, Granny, Anton, King George, the Darlings, the Lost Boys, Archie, Geppetto, Mulan, Elsa, Little John, the father of Hansel and Gretel, etc…). This may be an unpopular opinion in a thread about romance, but I’m inclined to agree with RG that a happy ending does not necessarily have to, or perhaps even shouldn’t, always end in romance. We’ve talked before about Ruby, albeit briefly. For her, perhaps a happy ending won’t include a romance with Dr. Whale, as many speculated about, for the simple reason that the actor who plays him made it seem like he wouldn’t be returning to the show. So, Meghan Ory, who has made cameo appearances in S3, may reprise the role of Ruby only for her happy ending to be about self-acceptance as a lone wolf. For characters like Grumpy and Nova, it is sort of sad if they never got together, and likely never will, since the actress who played her hasn’t been spotted on the show in over two seasons. Yet, at least Grumpy has his fellow dwarves for company, and Nova has her fellow fairies for friendship. Finally, for characters like Jefferson, his happy ending is probably just living happily with his daughter, Grace, since we’ll likely never see Sebastian Stan on the show again.
So, A and E, you have a sugar coated rainbows and unicorns vision of this world. Good for you. Too bad it’s 1oo% pure fantasy fluff and you’ve lost the real.
I couldn’t help but think how much this sounds like what Regina told Snow White at the start of S3.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Okay Question, having read the synopsis of 401 (it sound like a great episode!) and spoilers how Regina reacts, I am seriously questioning the healthiness of the OutlawQueen relationship.
Robin is still stringing Regina along by telling her that he loves her but he has to honour his vows to Marian. He’s basically keeping Regina on a hook “we can’t be together……right now”. That is a real douche move on Robin’s part, however it is Regina’s reaction that makes the OQ relationship more unhealthy.
We’ve been told that Regina isn’t going to give up Robin “without a fight”, and Regina is plotting to get rid of Marian because Robin is Regina’s happy ending. Robin is stringing Regina along (see above), however, even before he says that to her, Regina is acting like a completely obsessive ex. She’s plotting bad things against Marian because Marian has innocently come between Robin and Regina. Regina thinks Robin should be with her, he’s her happy ending etc etc. Despite the fact Robin has chosen Marian, Regina is still pursuing him, even though he has, for lack of a better word, “dumped” her.
Whilst no relationship on Once is without its flaws, I find this particular turn of events in the OQ relationship to be rather unsettling. The audience is being encouraged to root for a couple where the woman is fighting obsessively for a man who has dumped her for his wife, who she is planning to remove from the picture in order to get back together with the man, because he is still stringing her along by not having the decency to completely end it. How is that in anyway meant to be romantic? Regina is romantically pursuing a man who has put her as second choice. No doubt once Marian is out of the equation, whether or not that is by Regina’s hand, Robin WILL go back to Regina. How is that healthy?
All of the Mills women have unhealthy attitudes to romantic relationships with men.
Cora
Jonathan- Jonathan was a slimeball. Pure and simple. But the moment he mentioned he was a prince to Cora, the dollar signs (or what ever currency the EF uses)were flashing in her eyes. He’d obviously been watching Cora for the week since he knew exactly what tricks and lies to use to get her where he wanted her, but Cora agreed to marry him instantly. She didn’t know him at all, considering he had to introduce himself to her, which suggests that was the first time she actually talked to him. Would she have agreed to marry him if she thought he was a simple gardener? Doubtful. Would she have given up her “virtue” to a simple gardener? Certainly not. Cora wanted to be more than she was, and whilst ambition is certainly not a bad thing, Cora was looking for an easy route to power hence why she threw everything she had at Jonathan when she thought he was a prince. Also Cora’s reaction to finding out that Jonathan was lying was to demand money from him to support the child which is reasonable depending on if she actually was planning to keep the child, if she wasn’t then she would have taken the money meant for the child and ditched the child which would’ve been wrong, but when he refused she then threatened to destroy his livelihood by reporting him to his bosses meaning that he wouldn’t be in any position to support anyone.Leopold- Again the dollar signs started flashing for Cora when Leopold introduced himself as “Prince Leopold”. Before that she didn’t want anything from him. Leopold was just a meal ticket for Cora, she was planning to pass off Jonathan’s baby as his because producing an heir would have secured her place. Cora didn’t love Leopold, she loved the trappings that would’ve come with being Leopold’s wife including being queen someday. Eva told Leopold that Cora was already pregnant, but it wasn’t telling him that which caused Leopold to throw Cora out, it was Cora’s lies and deception which caused Leopold to break off the engagement. Naturally Cora blamed Eva and then gave up Zelena because the child would’ve prevented Cora from being anything other than a miller’s daughter. Cora did that WITH her heart. Cora then held a grudge against Eva for decades before eventually killing her then putting Regina in place to be Leopold’s wife and Queen whom Cora would’ve had a direct influence over..
Rumple- Cora did have some affection for Rumple, they were very similar on many levels, but in the end he was still her meal ticket to better things. She wanted Rumple to teach her magic because “magic is power” and in a sense she used him until the point she had no use for him anymore. She entered into the deal for her first born child willingly knowing that Zelena was out in the world somewhere. She allowed Rumple to change the deal, knowing that it never was going to happen. Their whole relationship was built on taking revenge on those that had wronged them. It appeared she was planning to run away with him until she was reminded that she could be royalty by marrying Henry but how true is that really? Her mind was easily changed by Xavier. She must’ve felt some guilt because she ripped out her own heart to enable her to give up Rumple and marry Henry. Cora chose power and royalty over Rumple because she didn’t really care about love. after all “love is weakness”. She wanted power and she was going to do anything to get it.
Henry Sr- Cora just treated Henry Sr like a doormat, she can stop him from doing something against her with just a look. She openly admitted she didn’t love him, yet she married him, had a daughter with him and stayed with him. Henry was Cora’s foot in the door to royalty. He was 5th in line to the throne which meant she wouldn’t be able to have “real power” but it was a start. Cora then started manipulating events and manipulating Regina into a position where she would have power by proxy. She wanted Regina to be an obedient daughter and do as she was told. Cora intended Regina to be queen and if Regina did everything Cora wanted then when Regina WAS queen, Cora would effectively be controlling a puppet queen. Henry was a means to an end.
For Cora, all the men she engaged in a romantic relationship with were meal tickets.
Zelena
Rumple- Zelena was warped in many ways. She used Rumple as her own personal “doll” even calling him as such. Because she had the dagger, she could coerce him into doing anything she wanted. The dinner scene was literally Zelena playing “house” with Rumple complete with meat pies. Zelena couldn’t control Rumple’s thoughts consider the number of times he threatened her but she could control him physically and she threatened him with uncontrollable agony unless he did what she wanted. Zelena wants Rumple to love her as seen by the noises she made when Rumple kisses her. However, she completely goes off on one and gets when she realises it was all a ploy on Rumple’s part to try and get the dagger.
To Zelena, Rumple was a toy that she could take out of his box whenever she liked and make him do whatever she wanted. If he misbehaved, she put him back in his box until she was ready to play with him again.
Regina
Regina seems to take after both Cora and Zelena when it comes to relationships with men. (I’m not including Daniel on Regina’s list because that was the only “healthy” romantic relationship Regina has had although it was very power imbalanced). Also, growing up with her parents’ marriage may have also influenced Regina’s view of romantic relationships.
Leopold- Regina didn’t want to marry Leopold because she didn’t love him but she did it anyway because who knows why. She complained about feeling like a prisoner, she complained he didn’t love her but she stayed with him. I think Regina was actually following her mother’s advice about getting her own personal guards and building her powerbase. Regina eventually had Leopold murdered and tried to blame it on Snow. Despite her earlier protests to the contrary, Regina actually liked being queen and didn’t want to give it up. This is where Regina takes after Cora- Using a man as a meal ticket to bigger and better things.
Sidney- Regina played Sidney like a fool and continues to do so. He’s in love with her and Regina uses that to get him to do whatever she wants. She continues to string him along rather than ending it once and for all. Regina uses Sidney as a tool and fall guy for her bidding.
Graham- Regina uses Graham as her sex slave and forces him to do her bidding (sometimes he’s aware of this, sometimes he’s not). She killed Graham because he dumped her and hooked up with Emma. Again this was an obsessive reaction very much in the vein of “If I can’t have him then you can’t either”. This is where she takes Zelena (though you could say Zelena took after Regina), forcing a man to bend to her will. The whole Graham relationship could also be the result of Cora’s influence on Regina ie if you’re not the one giving orders in the relationship, you’re on the receiving end which makes you weak.
Robin- See above
Thoughts?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixI’m comfortable with A&E’s response to the TL vs SoulMate question – and congrats for getting your question asked, Obisgirl! I’m glad they admitted they were stumped by the question and basically came up with an answer on the spot instead of trying to cover it up.
My issue is that for A and E and ONCE the “happy ending” always always gets wrapped up in finding your true love/soulmate/penguin/whatever else they want to label this as. Which is crap
I do agree with this, somewhat. But I have more problem with the idea of Happy Ending more than it getting wrapped up in finding your TL. Because, how exactly do you have a Happy Ending – when life goes on? You’re going to stay stagnant for the next however many years? Well, that’s boring, not to mention impossible. You don’t allow yourself to grow and change because you’ve met a True Love? Again, boring and impossible.
Instead I like David’s concept of life as he explained it to Emma – it’s made up of moments and you have to appreciate the good ones. So…you have moments with your True Love(s – because I believe you can have more than one at any given time) but those aren’t your only happy moments. What about the accomplishments and growth you experience sans True Love(s)? They don’t count as much? TL should enhance your life, not become your sole reason for existence. (Looking at you, Snowing)
So while, I can see OQ going downhill real fast really quickly if RH starts stringing the women along and Regina goes all Dark Side because of it. I can believe that RH genuinely have TL for each. But that doesn’t mean you get to act all – to quote POM ‘douchey’ ( 🙂 ) because of it!
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