Love and Romance on OUAT: What's the Message?

[WickedRegal]

In Response to @POM’s Statements and In Defense of the Mills Women…..Let Me Say This!!

The Mills Women are women whose lives went south because of one person’s mistake. Johnathan for Cora, Cora for Zelena, Snow for Regina….so to say that they were all just responsible for their own choices is a bit incorrect. And Rumpelstilskin pretty much played a huge part in their lives….

The Before & After…. 😛

Cora: (The Heartbroken Gold Digger)

Johnathan: This man….he was a total slimeball! Though I do believe that Cora was the financial opportunities with Johnathan…I think she genuinely started to like him. And that’s why the shock of him lying to her really set the wheels in motion of “Love Is Weakness.” I think there really could have been something between them had Johnathan been truthful from the start, and actually worked to win over Cora, for she was not a gold digger in the beginning, and was a woman of virtue as we saw. And apparently there really was something magical, hence Zelena coming out as powerful as she did. Whether that was true love or true lust, not saying that it was, but the possibilities do stand. Zelena is proof of something magical being between Johnathan and Cora, who could have worked had this gone under different circumstances.

Leopold: Now he’s someone I do believe Cora saw only the financial/power of the situation. She was somewhat of a complete gold digger, and would have settled with Leopold, knowing that she would be set for the future.

Rumplestilskin: I do believe that Cora loved Rumple with her entire heart, hence why she had to rip it out in the end. She did not use Rumple just for her advantages, as she was going to run away with him, and bare him a child. But King Xavier’s words of “Love is Weakness” and his speech brought up bad memories of the men who hurt her in the past, and she was down to a decision of either choosing her true love for Rumple, or financial stability, the one thing she’s desired her entire life. Cora loved Rumple so much to the point where she ripped her heart out to relieve herself of the pain, kinda selfish, and met with Rumple to tell him that they could never be together. Although Cora started to like Johnathan, which could have progressed to love had he been truthful and honest, Rumpelstilskin was the only man Cora ever loved, who wouldn’t have paid a thousand dollars for a kiss, and fifty cents for her soul. But a past of heartbreak and disappointment made Cora choose money over love….

Henry Sr.: Cora never loved Henry Sr. Could she have…eventually. There was definite a spark during their dance, but note that was when she had her heart. Had Cora kept her heart in her chest, she could have grown to love Henry Sr, but it probably wouldn’t be as intense as the love she held for Rumple. But her marrying Henry Sr was purely out of money.

So there were a lot of good almosts in Cora’s life, and she was in a sense selfish for a few choices. But it was heartbreak/disappointment that led her to make the decisions she did, only realizing too late that there was so much more to love than what she thought. Hence why she said to Rumple and Regina that “this would have been enough” right before she died.

Zelena: (The Second Hand Baby)

Zelena was a woman who wanted to feel belonged, and loved. Being given up by Cora, and mistreated by her adoptive father after her adoptive mother’s death, left Zelena with some serious abandonment issues. And she wanted to prove to everyone that she was so much more than what they thought of her.

Rumple: Zelena went to Rumplestilskin because she wanted to prove to him that she was better at magic than her sister Regina. HOWEVER, it was Rumple who saw a better opportunity Zelena, a golden ticket he could use to get what he wanted. For Rumple, yes he’s awesome, but with the Mills Women, he always used them to get whatever he wanted. Zelena however, was the wrong Mills woman, as she was the one to backfire on him because she had too many issues to just be used and just tossed aside. Along with her abandonment issues, Zelena wanted to feel loved, so she immediately latched herself onto Rumple, hoping that he would love her, and only grew more envious when he gave Regina more attention than he did with her. So Zelena was just the Mills Plot that backfired, because she ultimately resulted in a huge problem, that I now wonder why Rumple never resolved.

And being born with what is said “the most powerful dark magic”, obviously it was shown that Zelena was in fact the most powerful practitioner of magic, who only the strongest light magic could prevail against. And her past of being replaced, and tossed away didn’t make things any better….Zelena in a sense was someone who was very fragile, quick to love, and easy to break. All of that resulted in the tragic woman we saw: someone second hand and broken who was still trying to make a pretty sound.

Regina: “They Just Keep Moving The Line”

Daniel- The one man who genuinely loved Regina, and would have done anything for her. And if I’m going to be totally honest….we can just have Daniel come back, and be with Regina, and I’d be just as happy. I’m a huge StableQueen, and he’s the only person besides Snow White, who knew Regina when she wasn’t tainted by darkness, and was actually one of the most pure hearted girls in the land.

Leopold- I don’t have to say much about this man, as you all know how I feel about him. BUT, again I question you all, who came to Regina to talk her into going back to get married to Leopold? Hmmm…..Rumple, that’s right. Had Rumpelstilskin not showed up when Regina was leaving, she would have left. But no, he came back, and convinced her into not only going back to get married, but to take magic lessons that he knew would corrupt her. Regina was a prisoner who was trapped, and didn’t realize her mistake of listening to Rumple, until she was bound in the castle with no way out. She was not allowed outside of the Kingdom at all, and was only allowed to be sociable when Leopold needed her to be his trophy wife. She was forced to raise the very child who outed her, and was practically put into a cage by her overbearing, insecure husband. As Regina stated, and what we were shown in The Forbidden Fruit, King Leopold was a very insecure/obvious jealous man who didn’t want no man looking at his trophy wife. Hence he tried to have Sidney to try and find the culprit, and do God knows what to him. Regina murdered Leopold to free herself from him, does it make it right, no, but it was something that had to be done.

Rumplestilskin: A man who paid a thousand dollars for a kiss, yet fifty cents for her. Even before Regina was born, he had clear intentions to corrupt a pure soul into doing his dirty work. He just stood by, and let Cora start planting the seeds by killing Daniel, and that’s when Rumple began the harvest by using her grief and anger to morph her into his, and I quote, monster. Even when Regina tried to pull away from learning magic, Rumple implanted her mind that “anger was all she’d ever have, and that she was nothing without it”, which ultimately scared her out of going into the tavern to meet Robin Hood. Proof of that is when she explains to Tinkerbelle in 3×03 that the “anger was all she had” and she had no clue what she’s be without it.

Graham- Graham had but one job to do…one, and that was to kill Snow White. He made a deal with Regina, that he went back on, and ultimately had to pay the price for it. He didn’t have to accept Regina’s original offer, but he did, and when he realized that he couldn’t do it….instead of just going back and trying to explain, which probably would have made things a lot better, he tried to deceive Regina by giving her the heart of a pig. It’s one thing to try to go around someone, but to knowingly lie is another, and I think that’s what really set Regina off. Graham was openly mocking Regina’s intelligence, which sent her flying off the handle, thus putting Graham in the position he found himself in. And with the Emma situation….Graham saw how things were escalating between Regina and Emma, heck he was there when they were decking out one another in the graveyard. And instead of taking Regina aside and explain to her everything, he broke into her family mausoleum, had Emma going on a wild goose chase, then told Regina in front of Emma that he felt nothing, and never would. Public humiliation in front of your worst enemy had to hurt Regina, who from day one comforted in Graham that she was nervous of what Emma may do in SB, and to have your only comfort turn on you like that….yeah, of course that wasn’t going to end pretty.

Robin- No I do not like the predicament Robin has placed Regina in, almost as if she’s just the “second choice”. But, Regina fighting for Robin should be acceptable. He’s her soul mate, one of her final chances at happiness, who wouldn’t fight for that? It’s not obsessive…I mean Rumple killed Milah simply because she chose Hook….obsessive or not? Robin and Regina’s love is completely healthy, and understandable….the only reason Robin is going back to Marian is because she’s his “wife” whose been dead for the past thirty years. Robin has changed immensely since Marian last saw him, so Regina won’t have to do that much fighting, and I do believe Robin will go back to Regina before anything happens to Marian, for he and Marian are not on the same page anymore.

This is almost like high school where Regina has to fight for her man, when his ex-love pops back up wanting him back. 😛

But anyway….it’s really in a sense close to how life really works. Nothing is ever that easy, and there will be a few set backs, but it’s the troubles that OutlawQueen face that will bring them closer than ever. And Regina is not trying to remove Marian by killing her, hence she saves her life in 4×01, when she clearly could have left her to die. That shows character growth, and how far Regina’s come since S1. She’s conflicted….a part of her wants to kill Marian, but the other part that’s allowed love to come in and change her is refusing for that to happen. It’s like when you’re on a diet, and you know you want some ice cream, but know that it’s not gonna help the situation. And it appears that no matter how far this woman has grown, there are always the few who throw her past up in her face, hence they keep moving the line!

 

 

[RumplesGirl]

WickedRegal, that GIF you posted was from 401, an episode that has not yet aired so I had to delete it. Please remember this is a not a spoiler section.

Also: tags, my loves. Tags. Make my life easier, yeah?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Epona_610]

Thanks for the link, @MatthewPaul, interesting view in that article. There is more I would comment on but will keep it to the relationship related stuff here:

1. Don’t have affairs. We get that Captain Hook is a swaggering sex-bomb who could woo any woman, so it makes sense on a hormonal level for Milah to ditch Rumple for the pirate. But her decision not only got her killed but sent her beloved down the evil path and caused her hubby to become the Dark One. For the sake of mankind, keep it monogamous people.

Not the lesson I see in that, reading it this way misses the point even IMO. Monogamy is no guarantee that people are honest with each other – but if there is something in Milah’s and Rumple’s story I think it is: Be honest with yourself and with others and particular your partner(s), friends, family. And accept that not every relationship works out staying together, sometimes it might be better for all involved to part in time.

Aside that there is a very different message in it, Milah was not the least bit responsible for Rumpel turning Dark One, he likely would have done so even if she’d stayed with him, after all he did it to protect Bae from being made a soldier – and the Ogre war was sure raging regardless what Milah did. But interesting to see how Milah is in the eyes of some responsible for what her husband became, and seen as solely responsible for the failure of their marriage. Pin the scarlet letter on Milah and shame the witch, she got herself killed and might have even deserved it. That is victim blaming in the worst form. Not saying what Milah did was right, but neither was what Rumple did, and meaning not just what he did in the end to her. But while Milah left him alone with his son but giving him a chance to still find a happy life, Rumple murdered his wife. Thanks for repeating the centuries old view, that women are the ones messing things up, are the original sinners (maybe you remember that thing that allegedly happened in paradise). That is such an empowerment of women. Not.

I apparently have a lot to catch up on in this thread, but I had to stop and say how much I agree with this–I couldn’t take the rest of the “lessons” seriously because that was the first one. Ugh. Come on, staying in a miserable marriage is not going to help anyone! And taken in the context of today’s society it’s especially irrelevant since we have options like divorce and legal custody arrangements. I did get the impression that viewers seem(ed) to think of Milah as the “villain” in that whole situation, and that ticks me off. Just like @Myril said, blaming the victim in a situation like that sends an absolutely terrible message about relationships. And of course there’s the lovely stereotype that Milah’s decisions were made based on hormones instead of the fact that her husband’s actions made her miserable and he refused to make any effort to improve things.

[Sidenote: This is actually one of my biggest problems with the show, that this murder was never addressed except briefly by Hook (who seemed over the whole thing in season three anyway–although since apparently he and Rumple will be antagonizing each other again soon, maybe that’ll come up again?). I mentioned earlier that Belle should really have been more concerned about that, and the other thing that really gets me is that while Neal was (rightfully) very angry at his father for not following him through the portal, but he never mentioned how Rumple murdered his mother. I know she left him too, but (a) she left him with a parent, not all alone in a strange world and (b) he didn’t want his father to die even after the abandonment, so why would it have been okay for his father to kill his mother?]

I’ll just get off my soapbox now…

[RumplesGirl]

I mentioned earlier that Belle should really have been more concerned about that, and the other thing that really gets me is that while Neal was (rightfully) very angry at his father for not following him through the portal, but he never mentioned how Rumple murdered his mother. I know she left him too, but (a) she left him with a parent, not all alone in a strange world and (b) he didn’t want his father to die even after the abandonment, so why would it have been okay for his father to kill his mother?

If I were to make a list of everything wrong on OUAT, this would, generally speaking, fall under the umbrella of “missed emotional drama due to Shiny Toy Syndrome.”

This absolutely should have been addressed. Neal and Rumple working through the fact that Rumple killed Milah would be–wait for it–watchable TV. Good, old fashioned S1 interpersonal connectivity drama. But..the writers often start taking toys off the shelf to play with and the emotional upheaval that our characters should be going through with one another gets shifted to the side in favor of MAGIC! MYTH! VILLAIN!

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

LOL

Daniel- The one man who genuinely loved Regina, and would have done anything for her. And if I’m going to be totally honest….we can just have Daniel come back, and be with Regina, and I’d be just as happy. I’m a huge StableQueen, and he’s the only person besides Snow White, who knew Regina when she wasn’t tainted by darkness, and was actually one of the most pure hearted girls in the land.

I agree Daniel and Regina did truly and genuinely love each other and is probably the healthiest romantic relationship Regina has had. However, there was a power imbalance in that relationship that came from their different social classes. Daniel had more to lose if that relationship went belly up.

Graham- Graham had but one job to do…one, and that was to kill Snow White. He made a deal with Regina, that he went back on, and ultimately had to pay the price for it. He didn’t have to accept Regina’s original offer, but he did, and when he realized that he couldn’t do it….instead of just going back and trying to explain, which probably would have made things a lot better, he tried to deceive Regina by giving her the heart of a pig. It’s one thing to try to go around someone, but to knowingly lie is another, and I think that’s what really set Regina off. Graham was openly mocking Regina’s intelligence, which sent her flying off the handle, thus putting Graham in the position he found himself in. And with the Emma situation….Graham saw how things were escalating between Regina and Emma, heck he was there when they were decking out one another in the graveyard. And instead of taking Regina aside and explain to her everything, he broke into her family mausoleum, had Emma going on a wild goose chase, then told Regina in front of Emma that he felt nothing, and never would. Public humiliation in front of your worst enemy had to hurt Regina, who from day one comforted in Graham that she was nervous of what Emma may do in SB, and to have your only comfort turn on you like that….yeah, of course that wasn’t going to end pretty.

You’re kind of placing all the blame on Graham here which I think is unfair. Regina at that stage of the game wasn’t someone who took rejection gracefully and wasn’t someone who was easy to say no to. Regina wanted Snow dead with a vengeance. Do you honestly think Regina would’ve been okay with Graham going back and explaining that he’d changed his mind? Hell no! She would’ve ripped out his heart anyway.

Robin- No I do not like the predicament Robin has placed Regina in, almost as if she’s just the “second choice”. But, Regina fighting for Robin should be acceptable. He’s her soul mate, one of her final chances at happiness, who wouldn’t fight for that? It’s not obsessive…I mean Rumple killed Milah simply because she chose Hook….obsessive or not? Robin and Regina’s love is completely healthy, and understandable….the only reason Robin is going back to Marian is because she’s his “wife” whose been dead for the past thirty years. Robin has changed immensely since Marian last saw him, so Regina won’t have to do that much fighting, and I do believe Robin will go back to Regina before anything happens to Marian, for he and Marian are not on the same page anymore.

This is almost like high school where Regina has to fight for her man, when his ex-love pops back up wanting him back.

My issue with this is Robin chose to be with another woman over Regina. It’s not like he’s trying to push Regina away because he thinks she deserves better or they’re being constantly separated. Regina is fighting for a man who made her his option 2 rather than his first choice. Regina’s obsessiveness is her mission to take Marian out of the picture and the general “he’s mine” attitude. I’m glad Regina saves Marian’s life because if she hadn’t, that would’ve been the final nail in the OQ coffin.

Regina needed to back off and try and move on with her life, whilst Robin works things out with Marian. When Robin inevitably goes back to Regina, she should give him a hard time for making her second choice. Then they could work things out etc etc. Regina shouldn’t be fighting for second place, she should’ve been the only choice for Robin.

Robin could’ve chosen Regina and then discussed with her in private how to handle the Marian situation, such as maybe keeping their relationship low profile until the dust had settled a little, which may have meant OQ avoided being seen together in public, however the point is Robin would’ve still chosen Regina over Marian.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[WickedRegal]

@POM

Graham: No, I’m not placing the blame on Graham….I’m just saying that some of his decisions were not his best! It’s one thing to not do the job you agreed to do, but it’s another to try and deceive the Queen, inadvertently mocking her intelligence also. Had Graham just went back and told Regina that he didn’t have the heart to do it, there would’ve been a price for going back on his word, but the mere fact you looked her in the face and lied/deceiving her with the heart of a pig made matters worse. He’d have a better chance saying that Snow ran away, evading him. But he chose to lie…which made matters worse.

Robin: My love for Robin will greatly diminish if he goes back to Regina, only because something tragic happens to Marian. Because that’s placing Regina in second place, and is not alright with any Evil Regals. If she’s not the first, then screw it! But…I do hope that after 4×01, Regina does give Robin his space to sort his feelings out, and to come to realization on his own that things with Marian aren’t working out because they’re not on the same page anymore.

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[PriceofMagic]

@WR Graham going back and saying Snow ran away/evaded him would’ve still been lying. Graham could’ve killed Snow, he chose not to. He chose to save her life by not killing her and to make Regina think she was dead so she wouldn’t continue to pursue her. I don’t think Graham gave Regina the pig heart because he failed or was trying to fool her, he wanted her to think Snow was dead. He just wasn’t expecting her to realise it was a trick before he had chance to be as far away from the castle as possible.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Slurpeez]

Now that we’ve had almost an entire full season since this discussion first began, maybe we can re-visit it. I would like to know what a happy ending is even supposed to look like on this show. Nearly every couple has had a rough go of it in S4. Namely, I wanted to add something here about how romance, and marriage in particular, is addressed on this show, and what it means for “happy endings” now that everything is being turned on its axis. This is a reply I wrote to something that @nevermore wrote in a different thread about the less-than-favorable portrayal of marriage on this show.

And all the other married relationships are absolute disasters. Ok, maybe it makes for better drama. Or, maybe contemporary US culture is so pessimistic about marriage and commitment more generally that it gets reflected in shows like this. To me, personally, Rumbelle is deeply problematic, but it’s simply the extreme example along a spectrum of negativity, which is how relationships with any mileage under their belt are portrayed on this show — as potentially abusive, deceitful, non-committed (Robin and Marian before we knew Marian is Zelena), or seemingly solid but recently revealed as morally deluded (Snowing). In other words, if you were wondering what happens after the fairytale “happily ever after”, the answer is abuse, neglect, separation, divorce. Well, and death of course. Oh, and sometimes weird pregnancies with the wrong people.

Almost everyone wants a fairytale happy ending, but so few people seem to know what that actually even looks like. This is a major problem, not only on this show, but in the wider culture. Disney fairytale movies and romantic comedies all end with a wedding (as if that were the end of a relationship, rather than the beginning of a lifelong partnership). Yet, few stories show what actually comes after the wedding, or if we do see what happens, the couples in question usually end up becoming less than interesting (e.g. Snowing), going through adultery (e.g. Rumple/Milha/Hook, “Marian”/Robin/Regina or Kathryn/David/Mary Margaret), hating each other to the point of killing the other (e.g. Rumple/ Milha or Regina/Leopold) or getting divorced (e.g. Rumple/Belle).

Even Snow and Charming, who are meant to be a paragon of faithful married love on the show, used each other to cast the dark curse! Snow actually killed her husband, without knowing there’d be a way to save him via magical-plot-device heart transplant. They have been reduced from an amazing power couple to backseat, bumbling idiots who may or may not commit selfish acts of villainy from time to time (e.g. Lily). Even couples who supposedly had very good off-screen marriages (David’s parents, according to Ruth in S1), turn out to not have been as great as previously thought (according to David in S4). Leopold and Eva supposedly were deeply in love, but he wasn’t even present at her deathbed. There are literally no good examples of committed, faithful, long-term marriages for anyone to look to on the show. Oh, to be sure, there probably are good and happy  off-screen marriages on the show (e.g. Philip and Aurora or Cinderella and Thomas), but we never see those couples, so they might as well not even exist.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[PriceofMagic]

The romances that fit into all three categories:
Heterosexual
White
Aged late 20s to early 30s

Seem to be presented in a more positive light than couples that don’t fit into all 3 categories. For example, of the 4 main couples (RumBelle, Snowing, OQ and CS), RumBelle is written as the relationship that has the most problems. The only difference between the 4 is that RumBelle does not fit the age category because of Rumple.

We do not see mature couples on the show that end well. For example, Rumple/Milah, Rumple/Cora, Cora/Henry Sr, Milah/Hook, Leopold/Regina etc.

It seems like true love and happiness on the show only happen if you’re under 40.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Sweets]

Oh, to be sure, there probably are good and happy  off-screen marriages on the show (e.g. Philip and Aurora or Cinderella and Thomas), but we never see those couples, so they might as well not even exist.

Even with Philip and Aurora Mulan was a (possible) interloper in their relationship.

What I don’t think you can do successfully on this show is apply real-world standards of morality and ethics to the relationships shown on the show. Most of the issues the main couples face has to do with magic.

Rumbelle has struggled with what the Dark One power does to Rumple.

Snowing cast the 3rd Dark Curse and we still haven’t seen the effects of that

Outlaw Queen had the whole Marian/Zelena debacle

Captain Swan’s….time is coming

I find that it is hard for me as a viewer to make true judgement calls on what it means to have a Happy Ending in a world where glamour spells, curses, and prophesies exist. But I think that makes Once enjoyable for me because it is so unrealistic.

That’s why I particularly don’t like the Zelena pregnancy story because it seems so….Grey’s Anatomy-like.

[Author]

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