Love and Romance on OUAT: What's the Message?

[RumplesGirl]

They love each other, that is without question, however Belle wouldn’t want to give up on Rumple so she would start exercising some control over his drug. Rumple’s going to do it anyway, so Belle would rather he did it with her knowledge, where she can reign him back in if he starts going too far, rather than him indulging behind her back. Rumple’s going to work out pretty quickly that if he’s on his best behaviour, then it would be easier to convince Belle to let him indulge in his drug a little bit. That then becomes a cycle. Rumple is good, Belle won’t give up on him and lets him indulge a little bit. Rumple behaves himself, Belle gives him his drug and she stays with him.

Put this into a non-Rumbelle scenario because what you’ve just described is the very definition of an enabler. Man X is addicted to meth. Woman Y loves him and says I will stay with you and give you meth only when you’re good. Woman Y is not ending the very dangerous addiction, she’s fueling it based on good behavior. Is that morally and ethically okay? What happens when Man X doesn’t get his fix? Does he go looking for it elsewhere? What sort of problems might that cause?

I think the relationships need to be identifiable with the audience so they have to have some measure of reality to them. However, people also watch the show as a form of escapism, they want to get lost in this fantasy world so you can’t make it too reality based. it’s a fine line to walk.

I agree it’s a fine line. The question, to the general public, then becomes: is ONCE leaning one way or the other? Are the relationships and love stories on ONCE more for escapism and can never be replicated in the real world without dangerous consequences; or are they grounded in a reality that we understand and can mimic?

[PriceofMagic]

Put this into a non-Rumbelle scenario because what you’ve just described is the very definition of an enabler. Man X is addicted to meth. Woman Y loves him and says I will stay with you and give you meth only when you’re good. Woman Y is not ending the very dangerous addiction, she’s fueling it based on good behavior. Is that morally and ethically okay? What happens when Man X doesn’t get his fix? Does he go looking for it elsewhere? What sort of problems might that cause?

Enabling someone’s self-destructive behaviour isn’t very healthy for either party. At the same time, if someone doesn’t want to give up their self-destructive behaviour outright, is it better to try and aim for damage limitation in the hope that they will eventually realise the error of their ways and change for the better rather than just leaving them to destroy themselves quickly?

I agree it’s a fine line. The question, to the general public, then becomes: is ONCE leaning one way or the other? Are the relationships and love stories on ONCE more for escapism and can never be replicated in the real world without dangerous consequences; or are they grounded in a reality that we understand and can mimic?

I think the relationships on Once are neither one or the other but are on a sliding scale. SwanFire was more reality based whilst OutlawQueen is more fantasy based. RumBelle sit somewhere in the middle of the two but leans slightly towards the reality side whilst Snowing is in the middle but leans more to the fantasy side.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Keb]

I think we should also look at the fact that this show has, repeatedly, pointed out that True Love extends beyond just romance. Henry’s mothers both have used True Love to break curses on him now, for example.

I would love to see the family/friendship aspects of love examined more. One reason it sucks that Red vanished is that her relationship with Snow was an interesting and close family-friendship relationship, and we didn’t get to explore that nearly enough.

Romance is awesome and I lovelovelove Rumbelle but the relationships that characters form beyond the bonds of romance–which have been proven to be capable of True Love–tend to interest me more. (Like, every friendship Belle’s ever had…more of that please? And David & Gold broshipping is delicious.)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[RumplesGirl]

I think we should also look at the fact that this show has, repeatedly, pointed out that True Love extends beyond just romance. Henry’s mothers both have used True Love to break curses on him now, for example.

Sure. The reason I didn’t include Henry/Regina and Henry/Emma in the original post is because I don’t really see any problems in the relationships necessarily. In both examples the message seems fairly clear: parental love is equal to, and might be greater than, romantic true love. There are issues with Regina using Henry as her motivation to be good instead of being good for the sake of good; and there are issues with Emma in S1 trying to figure out what motherhood actually is and how to relate to Henry, but on the whole I don’t see these are problematic for the theme of love in ONCE, whereas Snowing et al. have some seriously negative aspects to their love.

I would love to see the family/friendship aspects of love examined more. One reason it sucks that Red vanished is that her relationship with Snow was an interesting and close family-friendship relationship, and we didn’t get to explore that nearly enough.

Friends as love is also interesting, it’s just that there are so few examples that get the kind of treatment it needs and deserves.

Red Riding Hood and Snow White

Idea: Two people from drastically different social tiers who come together, bonding over shared experiences of persecution.

Problem: Is it an an equal, give and take friendship? Snow seems to benefit more as Red is typically used as a sounding board for Snow’s problems. This might just be because Snow is the main character, though.

Tinkerbell and Regina Mills

Idea: Instant friendship that is torn apart due to fear but manage to find trust again

Problem: In reality, if Regina had ruined Tink’s life the way she did, would there really be forgiveness? Because of Regina, Tink lost her identity. That’s not something that is easy to come back from.

There are others: Mulan and Aurora exist in a kind of limbo between romantic love and friendship love. There’s Hook and Charming’s budding friendship; there’s Ariel and Belle. But again, apart from maybe Hook and Charming, none of these have been expounded upon to any great length because the problematic romantic love stories took greater hold.

The bigger issue with friendship love in ONCE is that it has been relegated to brief asides that don’t shed a lot of light on any sort of message EXCEPT maybe that it’s not that important.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[obisgirl]

I would love it if Once delved more into friendship love and actually took the time to develop and maintain friendships.  Ruby and Belle were friends for about two episodes before that just…went away altogether once she lost her memory.  I like Regina and Tink’s friendship and I wish, really wish Rose were still on Once because I think she could really use some good girlfriend advice next season.  But Regina will likely have to go through the heartache of lost love on her own.  I don’t know how she would feel towards Snow or if Regina would even accept Snow’s comfort.

Friends seem to come and go and that’s sad because before you have a romantic relationship, it’s that of a friend.  I liked that Ruby and David were friends and had more of a big brother/sister friendship which is very rare on TV nowadays.

[PriceofMagic]

I would love it if Once delved more into friendship love and actually took the time to develop and maintain friendships. Ruby and Belle were friends for about two episodes before that just…went away altogether once she lost her memory. I like Regina and Tink’s friendship and I wish, really wish Rose were still on Once because I think she could really use some good girlfriend advice next season. But Regina will likely have to go through the heartache of lost love on her own. I don’t know how she would feel towards Snow or if Regina would even accept Snow’s comfort.

I agree. Red just kind of disappeared on Belle once she lost her memory, however a lot of characters seemed to forget about Belle for most of season 2. Even Snowing didn’t bother to keep an eye on her whilst Rumple was out of town.

The only friendship Belle seems to have had that has lasted over seasons is the one she has with Grumpy. He was the one who asked the Blue Fairy to make a second dose of memory potion for Belle (Though why Blue Fairy didn’t do that automatically seems a bit shady). Red and Belle haven’t interacted since Belle lost her memory and Ariel and Belle aren’t even in the same realm anymore.

I don’t know whether Regina would’ve turned to Tinkerbell over the Robin Hood situation because Tinkerbell was the one who was very pro-Robin and encouraged her to take the chance. So Regina might see it as if Tinkerbell hadn’t interfered, she wouldn’t be in the situation she’s in now.

I think it would be interesting to look at the different types of friendships that have been shown on Once and discuss whether both participants are actually on an equal and mutual standing with each other or does one participant gain more out of the friendship than the other?

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[surayya]

depiction and message of love and romance in Once Upon A Time, generally speaking and not directed at any ship whatsoever. That felt like safer ground rather than singling out one ship.

First off, thank you! thank you! thank you! I honestly had to take a breath & and leave this site when I saw the thread you mention- As you have done, I wanted to point out how each ship on the show can easily be made to be seen as promoting very negative aspects of human behavior- from Rumbelle to Snowing, SQ to Regina/Graham, SF to Ariel/Eric, But decided not to bother as I doubted it would be welcome there. This is a much more appropriate, unbiased & less confrontational way to talk about the subject of relationship portrayals, without it singling out & alienating any one ship (& therefore group of fans) as being in ‘poor taste’.

So much to read & comment on- I’ll take it one couple at a time & try not to get to off topic 😉

1st Snowing:

Snow White and Prince Charming (Snowing) Idea: the perfect true love Problem: an almost obsessive, unable to exist outside of each other love. As of the end of S3B, Snow and Charming literally share a heart. If one of them dies, it’s likely that the other will drop dead as well. There have been times on the show when, given the choice between her husband or her child, Snow has declared her choice, easily, to be her husband. Now I’m not married nor do I have children so I don’t know if this considered normal (please chime in on this if you’re knowledgeable).  Is this sort of all consuming love healthy? Or natural? Or even possible?

As S3 progressed I actually started to feel this way about them as well, so to a large extent I agree that Snowing often has come off as obsessive or at the very least, very needy… I think Snow more than Charming in most cases & it got quite  annoying- although being separated & living a lonely cursed life for 28yrs could make almost anyone rather needy I guess :/

I’m not married, nor do I have children, so cant really comment on the kids 1st thing- but I do think maybe once your children have grown into self sufficient adults, you should probably put your partner 1st in most cases, since that is the person who you are actually, ideally spending the rest of your life with etc. where as adult children move away as a natural process of living their own lives (I totally get this isnt the case for every culture though, so it’s just a loose personal opinion). I guess what I’m trying to say (not very well), is I think the dynamics of parent & child change as children grown into mature adults- hope that makes sense.

I’d also like to add that S1 Snowing in a weird way, promoted the idea of ‘cheating on spouses as being acceptable if you truly feel drawn to someone else’. I mean how many people decided they no longer wanted Snowing together when Charming cheated on his ‘wife’? Most of us pretty much thought ‘they’re cursed, so we’ll let it slide’.

[/quote]

Snowing represents the loved up, can’t live without each other aspect Rumbelle represents the loving someone even their flaws aspect SwanFire represents the innocent first love aspect. OutlawQueen represents the love after death aspect CaptainSwan represents the second chance aspect

I really like this point, well spotted & I am going to steal it for use else where if you dont mind? 🙂

I think the message of Once in regards to love and romance is that there is no perfect relationship. Most fairytales end with “and they lived happily ever after” (usually as the characters get married). Once shows that even these “happily ever after” relationships have their ups and downs. For example, RumBelle fight and sometimes Rumple screws up big time, but they still love each other deeply.

This, absolutely this!

Is the ONCE love displayed by Snowing different than the Bella/Edward pairing because ONCE is essentially about fairy tales?

Dont hate me for it, but the Twilight saga books are a guilty pleasure of mine- I LOVE Alice, Jasper & Carlisle *hangs head in shame* lol 😛 Seriously though, I dont see a difference at all between the 2 mentioned couples- both are overly co-dependent IMO. I guess the big question is “Is that level of codependency seen as acceptable for ‘fantastical’ works of fiction, because it isnt healthy in reality, or realistic in nature? Or does it kind of fall under the same purview as 1st person shoot em up type RPG’s do- where people actively run around fictional or ‘based on reality’ worlds, with the sole purpose of killing?”

Do we accept Snowing’s love as more pure because of genre? And…is THAT okay?

I dont think either one is more pure personally-genre differences or not.

Should we expect that these relationships have a measure of reality to them? Do they need to, in order to be believable? Or should we make them as fantastical as possible to dissociate from reality?

I think, no matter how far fetched these relationships may seem, there is a measure of reality in each relationship for the very points POM pointed out- The fact we have very real concepts of types of love being portrayed, yet set up in such utterly fantastical ways, means they are in reality duel nature’d- they hold just enough ‘reality’ to be relatable, but are portrayed in a utterly fantastical fashion so we can dissociate from them if we choose too- If that makes sense (It’s getting late here).

I think the relationships need to be identifiable with the audience so they have to have some measure of reality to them. However, people also watch the show as a form of escapism, they want to get lost in this fantasy world so you can’t make it too reality based. it’s a fine line to walk.

POM said it way better than I did 😉

The question, to the general public, then becomes: is ONCE leaning one way or the other? Are the relationships and love stories on ONCE more for escapism and can never be replicated in the real world without dangerous consequences; or are they grounded in a reality that we understand and can mimic?

I think the general public would lean towards fantastical escapism & I base that solely on what I’ve seen & heard. I think those who watch a fantasy drama hoping for more realistic or harsh realities to unfold, are just going to wind up disappointed in the show & change channel. That’s not to say everything that happens plot or relationship wise has no basis in reality, because it does, just that fantasy by its very nature is reality wrapped in a sparkly, ‘unlikely’ package 😉 Nor have I encountered any casual viewers who delve into the relationships or plots – pros or cons, like we do- they are simply watching to be entertained (I have family members & a great deal of friends who “watch & enjoy” Once, but they dont participate in our crazy fandom at all- I consider them to be “casual viewers/public audience”- I often think they have a better idea of the show’s actual concepts than we do sometimes- since they dont watch through shipping or anti ship goggles 😉 ).

Will come back tomorrow & give thoughts on the other relationships- it’s to late now, but I’m loving this thought provoking thread 🙂

 

 

 

[RumplesGirl]

I think it would be interesting to look at the different types of friendships that have been shown on Once and discuss whether both participants are actually on an equal and mutual standing with each other or does one participant gain more out of the friendship than the other?

I definitely want to cover friendship here as well. Because while I’m more okay with the message of romantic love given on ONCE (the many facets of it and its intricacies, given that it’s a TV show) the way friendship love on this show is shown is really bothering me lately, in that…there is none.

As S3 progressed I actually started to feel this way about them as well, so to a large extent I agree that Snowing often has come off as obsessive or at the very least, very needy… I think Snow more than Charming in most cases & it got quite annoying- although being separated & living a lonely cursed life for 28yrs could make almost anyone rather needy I guess :/

I can honestly say that how people feel about Snowing, as mentioned in this thread, is delightfully surprising. I actually expected to get some criticism for that.

Given that we’re all rather annoyed with them, especially after S3B, what does that say about how we–the people in the real world–view the idea of perfect true love? Are we all cynically bitter? Is that the message of ONCE’s true love—to open ourselves up to the possibility that perfect true love might really exist?

I’d also like to add that S1 Snowing in a weird way, promoted the idea of ‘cheating on spouses as being acceptable if you truly feel drawn to someone else’. I mean how many people decided they no longer wanted Snowing together when Charming cheated on his ‘wife’? Most of us pretty much thought ‘they’re cursed, so we’ll let it slide’.

Lol…yeah. Adam and Eddy can harp on “we’re a family show” as much as they want but…it kinda falls on deaf ears when you examine the body of work.

Dont hate me for it, but the Twilight saga books are a guilty pleasure of mine- I LOVE Alice, Jasper & Carlisle *hangs head in shame* lol

Judgement 😉

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[TheWatcher]

So here’s a question I would like to bring up: What about the progression of how long it takes for these characters to “fall in love”? It seems most of the time it is a very short jump from just meeting to True Love. Let’s see:

Snowing: Snow meets charming during a heist, they must help eachother get back the ring. Poof. True Love over the course of, what? A day?

Swanfire: This is a bit harder since we didn’t get a lot of flashbacks of this couple. But it seems to happen in a matter of months or atleast less than a year.

OutlawQueen: The most obvious one yet. Regina and Robin meet, Regina sees the ink. Poof. Love. Made worse as they were said to be true loves before even meeting each other without any evidence. One must wonder if they would be together if regina had never see the tattoo

CaptainSwan: Hook confesses his love to Emma in Neverland, which probably takes place, what? A few weeks (maybe a month or two) after they initially met in the EF?

RumBelle: This is the only couple who seems to have had the proper time to allow falling in love. Belle seemed to be with Rumpel for quite awhile, her attraction to him growing and vice versa, becoming friendly with one another and THEN poof. True Love.

My question is, should the show, being fiction, take the time to actually show the characters growing into a proper relationship over time and trials or just have it be a bit more accelerated? Personally, I think a bit of both. It is unrealistic for two people to meet and in a few weeks be in love (I finished highschool a few years ago, I’ve been there, done that, and seen fail all around me) or should they properly portray what it takes to maintain and grow in relationship over time, getting past fights and arguments, trials, and everything that comes in a real life relationship package?

When it comes to the EF, I actually get the love at first sight or falling for eachother rather quickly. Its a land of magic and Happy Endings, so it makes sense that this is how things works there. Snowings relationship makes sense because that is how a fairytale romance works. But this world however is a land without either. It would be interesting if that were shown. Two people from the enchanted forest meeting in our land, getting together, and then realizing things aren’t so easy here. Im rambling aren’t I?

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[obisgirl]

My question is, should the show, being fiction, take the time to actually show the characters growing into a proper relationship over time and trials or just have it be a bit more accelerated?

Older fairytale Disney movies don’t really go into the development of the relationship before true love’s kiss.  I mean, I barely remember the original Snow White movie but I’m fairly sure that Snow White and Prince Charming did not know each other before true love’s kiss happened at the end.

Nowadays, you think, well, how can that version of true love’s kiss even be real when you don’t know the other person?  Plus, it seems ridiculous now that we’ve been exposed to the prequel and epilogue of the story.

I like that Once in most cases the show takes time to develop the relationship before we get to the happily ever after.  It gives the relationship a strong foundation I think.  We were shown that Snow and Charming were true love from the pilot but over the course of season one, we saw through flashbacks how they got to that place.  How the relationship is developed on the show, in my opinion should never be rushed.  Adam and Eddy have to give a plausible foundation for why these characters work well together as friends, partners to eventual true love.  If the relationship were rushed like in the original Disney movies, that would not be satisfying to me anymore because it could be viewed as “lazy writing.” You’re not taking the time to build the foundation of the relationship.

I know Outlaw Queen is criticized for being too rushed but I really don’t view it that way at all.  Because they had a history together before they were even together! Regina know that he was meant for her a long time ago in the Enchanted Forest but chickened out and didn’t meet him them because of her own fears and insecurities.  They had a relationship of sorts in the EF during the lost year; while they did not like each other at a glance, there was an attraction. And yes for the sake of the fact there were only 11 episodes remaining in the season,  things did need to be sped up for story purposes.  But I’m okay with that.  I would rather watch what we got for Outlaw Queen than Regina keeping her distance from him for the bulk of the season and not do anything. That might be interesting for awhile but ultimately, seeing someone wallow in their own grief on a TV show can get annoying (I watch soap operas and see this all the time and I just roll my eyes whenever it happens).

[Author]

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