Love and Romance on OUAT: What's the Message?

[RumplesGirl]

So here’s a question I would like to bring up: What about the progression of how long it takes for these characters to “fall in love”? It seems most of the time it is a very short jump from just meeting to True Love. Let’s see

Really great question, Watcher! I have quite a bit to say about this, so I’m going to just talk at you for a bit. I’ll use Snowing as my template since they’re the big one. I actually don’t have a lot of issues with timeline when it comes to Snowing. Season one–which can pretty much be called “The Story of How Snow and Charming Fell in Love,”–was not only a subversion of the classic Disney and Grimm tales of Snow White and her Prince Charming, but also, I think, a twisty take on the courtly love trope. According to Barbra Tuchman, who is probably the most recognizable name for this topic, courtly love as expressed and performed in medieval society/literature went through a few stages:

1) Attraction, normally through the gaze or glance

2) Worship of the lady from afar

3) Declaration of passionate devotion

4) Virtuous rejection

5) Renewed wooing with oaths of fealty

6) Physical manifestation of love-sickness

7) Heroic deeds of valor

8) Consummation

9) Endless adventure

Attraction Through The Gaze

Snowing, upon first glance, are not in love so much as cautiously attracted to each other. There are no sweeping declarations of love, but a lot of snark. I think one thing to keep in mind is that in the courtly love trope, this would typically be between a Queen and her Knight, but ONCE did do some impressive subversion here since Snow White is a Princess in Hiding As a Bandit and her Knight in Shinning Armor is actually a Farmer.

Worship of the Lady From Afar

This actually works for both Snow and Charming, neither can forget the other. Their somewhat possessive love began at the end of “Snow Falls.” Snow and Charming don’t meet for over a month after that incident yet both are struck by their feelings for each other.

Declaration of Devotion

Charming’s letter to Snow White that he cannot forget her and that he has come to love her. Snow, conversely, does this as well but instead of telling Charming actually ends up telling Red when Red comes for a visit.

Rejection

This is the big subversion, for me. Snow rejects Charming not because she must remain pure and their love needs to remain idealized instead of sexualized. Snow rejects Charming to save his life but if it weren’t for King George’s threats, she’d run off with Charming in a heart beat. This does not a proper Princess make!

Renewed Oaths of Fealty

Charming, leaving Abigail before their wedding, and going after Snow because he loves her.

Love-Sickness

Snow exhibits this more than Charming. In the month following her meeting with Charming, she can’t stop thinking about him, she misses appointments with Ruby. And, in time after she “breaks up” with Charming, she becomes desperate enough to take a magical potion in order to forget him.

Heroic Deeds of Valor

We can count the Siren in “What Happened to Frederick,” as well as the Mal-Dragon. But I think the most heroic deed of valor in order to win Fair Lady’s heart is actually in “Heart of Darkness” when Charming takes the arrow, preventing Snow from going to the Dark Side by killing Regina.

Consummation

Emma’s the rather obvious proof of this one, but actually I would count the TLK that opens the show as the ultimate consummation for Snowing.

Endless Adventure

Also known as Season 2 and 3

Now, I don’t expect that other ships on this show should follow the exact way that Snowing did because each love story is unique. But what made Snowing, in S1 at least, a fully formed story was that it was clearly following an established pattern with a few twists and turns that made it special. Some of the other ships, OQ in particular for me, happened without any sort of warning and were predicated on magical circumstances rather than STORY. This is why I find deus ex machina pixie dust so darn problematic. WHY exactly did pixie dust align these two souls? What is there between Regina and Robin Hood that allows for Soul Mate-hood? With Snow and Charming, who are TL and SM I would argue, their story helped me understand their bond. It worries me that the message of OQ is, yes, “second chances” but without express reasoning behind it.

Older fairytale Disney movies don’t really go into the development of the relationship before true love’s kiss. I mean, I barely remember the original Snow White movie but I’m fairly sure that Snow White and Prince Charming did not know each other before true love’s kiss happened at the end.

This is very true, especially the BIG THREE classics of Snow White, Sleeping Beauty, and Cinderella. In all those cases the TL is predicated on Love At First Sight, an annoying trope to be honest. That’s why I liked ONCE’s version of Snow White and Charming. They didn’t fall for each other at first glance. There was something there, but it wasn’t until after much had happened that it became clear that it was true love.

 

[obisgirl]

Fascinating post RG 🙂

[MatthewPaul]

Older fairytale Disney movies don’t really go into the development of the relationship before true love’s kiss. I mean, I barely remember the original Snow White movie but I’m fairly sure that Snow White and Prince Charming did not know each other before true love’s kiss happened at the end.

Actually, Snow does meet the prince before the true love’s kiss occurred. It was at the beginning of the movie when Snow’s singing “I’m Wishing.” The Prince (not officially named Charming in this movie by Disney FYI) eavesdrops on her singing and introduces himself. Snow is at first startled but then they start singing together. It’s still “love at first sight”, though. What’s interesting is that there was going to be a subplot where the Prince is captured by the Evil Queen and has to escape before he goes off to wake up Snow, much like what happened on Once, but it was cut at some point during the movie’s production.

[PriceofMagic]

Very interesting post RG.

@surayya Feel free to use what you like.

My question is, should the show, being fiction, take the time to actually show the characters growing into a proper relationship over time and trials or just have it be a bit more accelerated? Personally, I think a bit of both. It is unrealistic for two people to meet and in a few weeks be in love (I finished highschool a few years ago, I’ve been there, done that, and seen fail all around me) or should they properly portray what it takes to maintain and grow in relationship over time, getting past fights and arguments, trials, and everything that comes in a real life relationship package?

I think it is a bit of both too. Technically RumBelle became true love in their first episode together. However, it was stated within the episode that it had been a “couple of months” since they first met and then the Lacey and Skin Deep flashbacks expanded on this by showing that the two didn’t immediately fall in love but they got used to each other over time and the love developed from there.

We were shown Snowing were true love in the first 5 minutes of the pilot yet season 1 told their story of how they came to get to that point.

I think you can say immediately that a couple is true love, but you have to take the time to show WHY a couple is true love and how they got to that point. This is my main issue with OutlawQueen. We’re told they’re soulmates/possible TL “because pixie dust says so”, as for WHY they’re soulmates/ possible TL, again it’s “because pixie dust said so”. The audience is being told why instead of being shown why. It is entirely possible that Regina and Robin did take the time to get used to each other in the missing year hence why they are so drawn to each other in Storybrooke and the audience just hasn’t been shown that part yet. We may see that in season 4 which would add another layer to their scenes in season 3, like Think lovely thoughts added another layer to the Rumple/Bae portal scene.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

We’re circling back to something we’ve discussed before and to which I’m not sure I’ve found a satisfactory answer; there may not be one, truth be told. The quandary I’m having is: a good watchable, engrossing storyline versus the morality this good watchable, engrossing storyline is built around. For a show that was always billed as a “family drama” I’m not so sure this label holds its water. And yes, this is still just a silly little fantasy show, but is there a morality switch in our heads that goes off when the TV goes on?

I keep using Snowing as an example because they’re held up as “perfect true love” on the show but I’ll dip my toes into the other ships as well.

Season one, for me, is hands down the best season of the show. I was rooting for Snow and Charming in the past…but I was also rooting for David Nolan and Mary Margaret Blanchard. Now, as @Surayya pointed out a page back, this was an extramarital affair. It’s called that in “The Stable Boy.” Now to David and Mary Margret’s credit, they recognized the amorality of their actions in regards to David’s wife, Kathryn. However, this did not stop me rooting for the couple who were doing something that is morally bankrupt because it was engrossing. And we covered ourselves with, “well, they don’t know who they truly are. If they did, David wouldn’t be with Kathryn in the first place. This is all the fault of the Curse.” So my realistic moral problem was squashed by the fantastical reality of the show.

A brief aside, but is this a problem of modern television? Affairs are left and right on TV. For the first few seasons of Grey’s Anatomy, I wanted Meredith Grey and Derek Shepard together more than I wanted air to breath, yet he was married to Addison. On Scandal, I actually like Olivia Pope and President Grant, but he’s married AND the President of the United States and if the affair was ever confirmed, he could loose his position! On Outlander, I am in desperate need of a Jamie/Claire hug, kiss, something other than the steamy snark happening. But she’s married and (understandably) lying to everyone about who she is. Is good quality television predicated on presenting something amoral to the audience as watchable? Is this an exercise in wish fulfillment? Are we all longing to be more open sexually, attachments and commitment be darned? (I’m wondering how many of you just shouted, “what?! RG NO!!!” And if you did…what does that say about what we find enjoyable?)

Moving away from Snowing, we were discussing earlier in chat the OutlawQueen and Maid Marian situation. Here again we have two people who have presented as “supposed to be together” (RH and Regina) yet someone else gets in the way, Maid Marian, Robin’s wife. How do we resolve this and still keep a sense of “morality” about the show? If Marian dies and Robin does running back to Regina, is that REALLY the kind of man we want for our favorite Evil Queen? If Robin decides to leave Marian for Regina, is that “fair” for Marian and with whom do our sympathies tend? If Robin decides to STAY with Marian and leave Regina, do we applaud this or do we hate him for this?

@PriceofMagic and I discussed Belle as enabler for a drug addict and what kind of moral message this is sending as far as how supportive is too supportive. But if Belle walks clean away from Rumple, will we shun her for not sticking by her man; after all she made promises and vows!

Dipping my toe briefly into the CaptainSwan ship, Hook was a pirate for some 300 years and I’m going to assume it was not sunshine and rainbows. Does he owe it to Emma to explain his past, even his most recent past like killing Blackbeard to get the Jolly Roger back, even though Ariel was counting on Hook’s help? What kind of lies are okay to tell your significant other? Is total honesty more morally responsible? And if Hook never fesses up, do we approve of a relationship that hasn’t been perfectly honest with one another?

There are more examples from other ships, but I wanted to spread out the love a bit more.

All of the things I have brought up make for GOOD programming, or else we wouldn’t be here. But what kind of moral message are we taking away from the show (and its ‘ships) as a whole?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Keb]

It’s actually arguable whether in the Disney animated feature Snow and the Prince are meeting for the first time at the well. In “I’m Wishing,” Snow sings that she’s “wishing for the one I love to find me today.” It’s ambiguous, but it suggests that there’s already someone she loves–not that she’ll meet someone she CAN love.

His first words to her (all in song) are “Now that I’ve found you, hear what I have to say.” That can be read two ways: He’s just met her, OR he’s been looking for her for some time. Since the Queen forced her to dress in rags and act as a servant, it may be that she suddenly vanished from the royal scene, leaving the Prince searching for the girl he’d already fallen for.

It certainly CAN be read as love at first sight, but that’s not the only possible reading of their encounter at the well. Cinderella and Ariel are more guilty of this than most of the other Official Princesses. (And of course it’s a long-standing cinematic trope for two characters to meet, fall in love, and presumably/actually marry within the 90 or so minutes of a film–which necessarily shortens the relationship for the viewer even if a longer time is represented.)

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[TheWatcher]

To add to what RG said about Hook telling his past to Emma, I often wonder the same thing but about Neal. Should he have eventually revealed to her his past, that he was from a magical land, that he has actually been to Neverland and known Peter pan, tinkerbell, and Wendy, that he came to this world in a magic bean portal, etc. With Emma/Hook its a bit easier because what Hook would tell her isn’t something that sounds crazy, but imagine meeting a guy and he starts talking about magic portals and fairy tales as reality. She’d think he was off his rocker and would probably leave. So, in that case, should Neal have eventually revealed who he was, knowing Emma wouldn’t believe him (she only believed Henry when he was on his deathbed after all). Would it still be a good relationship if Neal/Emma or Hook/Emma goes on without telling the truth about their pasts?

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[RumplesGirl]

To add to what RG said about Hook telling his past to Emma, I often wonder the same thing but about Neal. Should he have eventually revealed to her his past, that he was from a magical land, that he has actually been to Neverland and known Peter pan, tinkerbell, and Wendy, that he came to this world in a magic bean portal, etc. With Emma/Hook its a bit easier because what Hook would tell her isn’t something that sounds crazy, but imagine meeting a guy and he starts talking about magic portals and fairy tales as reality. She’d think he was off his rocker and would probably leave. So, in that case, should Neal have eventually revealed who he was, knowing Emma wouldn’t believe him (she only believed Henry when he was on his deathbed after all). Would it still be a good relationship if Neal/Emma or Hook/Emma goes on without telling the truth about their pasts?

Good questions, though I do think it’s important for the purposes of this individual thread that whatever actions the characters have taken… they have taken. The writers wrote the scenarios in question for a specific reason and I’m trying to puzzle out what the moral message of the arching story of love–all of it–is on ONCE. I know various shippers have wondered what would have happened had Neal told Emma but the show chose not to go that route, meaning there is a moral message behind that ship and a moral message behind the other ships based on the actions that have actually been taken.

The last question you asked, though, is something I’m pondering in my post above yours.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

I think how an audience feels about a given morally-dubious scenario, such as the David Nolan/MM affair, all depends on whose point of view we are seeing the scenario from. Using Snowing as the example, the audience were rooting for them in season 1 as David Nolan and MM despite their relationship being an extra-marital affair. In real life, if a man was having an affair with his ex-wife, than that would be frowned upon.

However, because we were seeing it from MM’s point of view, we sympathised with her. Kathryn was presented as an obstacle to David and MM being together. Had the audience seen it from Kathryn’s view, then they probably would’ve been a lot less forgiving of MM, especially as she knew David was married yet continued to have an affair with him.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[obisgirl]

That’s true Price and probably, if we did not know about the curse and that Snow and Charming are meant to be together, we’d probably sympathisize with Kathryn too.

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