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That’s true Price and probably, if we did not know about the curse and that Snow and Charming are meant to be together, we’d probably sympathisize with Kathryn too.
Did we have zero sympathy for Kathryn? I recall some pretty intense vitriol launched at David Nolan during S1 because of how he acted during the whole situation.
I think how an audience feels about a given morally-dubious scenario, such as the David Nolan/MM affair, all depends on whose point of view we are seeing the scenario from.
POV is critical for how readers or watchers feel about characters. But for a show like ONCE where we have so many characters interacting and centric episodes, does morality changed based on from whose eyes we are looking?
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"POV is critical for how readers or watchers feel about characters. But for a show like ONCE where we have so many characters interacting and centric episodes, does morality changed based on from whose eyes we are looking?
I think the subjective lens through which the audience views a character can change over time as more of his or her back story is revealed. However, that does not change the objectivity of the moral choices one makes. Take Rumplestiltskin as an example. When we were first introduced to him, he was presented as an unhinged imp with a maniacal laugh who was the mastermind behind the “curse to end all curses.” He was perceived to be the Dark One whose dastardly plan, in conjunction with the Evil Queen’s obsession with revenge, devastated an entire land and its people. Objectively speaking, that is pretty dark and heavy. (Of course, I might add that Snow and Charming did almost the same exact thing as Rumple and Regina in recasting that dark curse, but that is for another post). While Rumple/Mr. Gold was an intriguing character in the first 7 episodes, it wasn’t until episode 8 when we learned about how he became the Dark One that he became sympathetic; what drove him to seek the power of the dagger was done in an effort to protect his son. Suddenly, we realized that it was the love of a child that led a humble, lame, poor man to choose dark magic in the first place, and it was an effort to find that same lost boy that led Rumple to create the dark curse. It seemed almost understandable why a man who first seemed so dark would choose such a dark means of locating his child.
Does that make Rumple’s actions in creating the dark curse suddenly morally defensible though? Did one man’s desire for reconciliation with his son justify him sacrificing one world for the next? I’d argue no, since the ends don’t always justify the means. Nothing could make the destruction of an entire realm morally right, nor could one man’s desires suddenly wipe his slate entirely clean for all the other wrong things he’s done such as killing people. Baelfire, who was that little light which kept his father human, saw that the dark magic made his father hurt people all of the time, and that he was only getting worse. While his son did eventually forgive his father, who came back for him, it didn’t suddenly absolve Rumple of the very real fact that his child had to grow up alone, nor did it change the fact that Rumple was the cause of so many other countless characters’ heartache.
As much as I understand and sympathize with Rumple as a character and like Rumbelle as a couple, I’m not blind to the fact that after he did the right thing of sacrificing himself to save everyone, he eventually fell back into his old pattern of darkness. Though perhaps Zelena deserved to die for the crimes she’d committed and attempted to carry out, her cold-blooded murder was not the way to deal with her. (A trail of Zelena’s peers, followed by a ruling of the law, was the way to handle her fate). Rumple lied to the woman he loves, saying he wouldn’t murder Zelena, and then did it anyway. He proposed to and married Belle while lying to her. Even when we come to better understand why the villains do the things they do, we hopefully are not blind to the wrong deeds they commit. Forgiveness does not equal total acceptance of wrongdoing, nor does love totally “fix” a character in question.
Rumple was wrong to lie to Belle by giving her a fake dagger and for killing another woman. Belle was perhaps too trusting and too naive to believe Rumple would be true to his word, so in that sense she allowed love to blind her. Maybe she just didn’t want to believe he’d fall back into his old ways. She said she loves even the dark parts of him, though I don’t think that means she has to accept them as morally okay, nor does that mean she has to stand for it when she discovers the truth. Hopefully, she won’t stand idly by if Rumple tries to justify his dark actions. No matter how wrong Zelena may have been for setting up the death of Rumple’s son, I doubt Bae would’ve wanted his father to relapse into darkness just to avenge his death or to marry Belle under false pretenses. Baelfire hated what dark magic did to his dad, as surely as I’d hope that Belle hates how dark magic continues to corrupt the man she loves.
While I think Belle and Rumple have true love, I think the way their story is currently being portrayed is not meant to be considered a healthy scenario. Belle can’t fix Rumple, as demonstrated by the failure of TLK to fully break his curse when he pulled away from her. The addict in question has to want to change, and the person who loves the addict cannot be an enabler if the addiction can ever be overcome. While Rumple is addicted to a fantastical element of magic, the scenario is similar to alcoholic addiction. The best movie I’ve seen that shows a realistic portrayal of love and addiction is perhaps When a Man Loves a Woman starring Andy Garcia and Meg Ryan. In that film, the husband had a difficult history of enabling his alcoholic wife. Her addiction was so strong it was putting herself and their children at risk. Eventually, the husband realized his behavior was enabling his wife to drink. To get clean, she first had to seek help outside of their marriage and he had to learn how to deal with an alcoholic wife. It was only in wanting to free herself that she was able to become sober once again, and it was in wanting to understand her illness that they were able to reconcile as a couple. Belle cannot excuse Rumple in his use of dark magic, and he has to want to free himself, if he is ever to overcome his dark one curse through TLK.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Dipping my toe briefly into the CaptainSwan ship, Hook was a pirate for some 300 years and I’m going to assume it was not sunshine and rainbows. Does he owe it to Emma to explain his past, even his most recent past like killing Blackbeard to get the Jolly Roger back, even though Ariel was counting on Hook’s help? What kind of lies are okay to tell your significant other? Is total honesty more morally responsible? And if Hook never fesses up, do we approve of a relationship that hasn’t been perfectly honest with one another?
I’ve thought about that too, and also had that issue with the other relationships involving the “reformed villains” (Rumbelle and OQ). Do their partners actually know about all of the terrible things they’ve done? Do they have a right to know, or does it not matter because that isn’t who they are anymore (so they say)?
Does Robin know, for instance, that Regina had an entire village–men, women, and children–put to death because of her obsession with Snow? And even leaving aside all of the many other horrible things that these guys have done, I think someone’s current/potential romantic partner has a right to know if that someone has murdered romantic partners before–Leopold and Graham for Regina, and Milah (and one could argue indirectly Cora) for Rumple. I know I wouldn’t want to be involved with someone who had a history of murdering his/her past spouses or lovers when they upset him/her! I don’t think that sends a great message about relationships.
In Robin’s defense, he said he heard stories about the Evil Queen but I don’t think he ever saw her in action, per say. Although, it would be shocking to find out next season if he did indeed witness Regina in full-on revenge mode.
Emma I don’t think is blind to what Hook did in order to get his vengeance. I mean, she was present for most of it. She knows the lengths that he went through but she sees now that he has changed and there’s a wonderful quote I saw on tumblr, that she sees he’s changed because she’s changed too.
In Belle’s case, I don’t know what to say about her. I mean, Hook told her point blank that Rumple murdered his wife and it didn’t make her flinch at all. And we also know that wasn’t a lie because we saw it. He grabbed her heart and crushed it. So, needless to say, it’ll be interesting to see how she reacts to finding out that Rumple murdered Zelena.
Rumplestiltskin and Belle (Rumbelle)
Idea: A passionate love that saves a soul from the darkest of evils
Problem: At the end of S3B, Belle is either woefully ignorant or blind that she has married a man that is dangerously addicted to magic. He is a manipulative liar who, at the end of the season, has murdered another person even after professing that he has changed. Belle has said a few times that she loves all parts of Rumple, even the parts that belong to the darkness. Is this sort of blind acceptance of a person’s flaws good?
Belle is a gangster’s girl. She’s determined to believe that she has something good.
Belle could be an interesting character. Despite all her apparent sweetness, I don’t think she has an ounce of empathy — otherwise, the magnitude of Rumpel’s crimes would overwhelm her. She had an “Ick!” reaction when she saw Rumpel torturing Robin; I’d say that she helped Robin escape not to ease his suffering but so that she could have her fantasy back. As long as Rumpel’s crimes are out of sight, she’s okay with them. I kind of think this makes her more monstrous than him, since Rumpel at least sometimes seems to have a tortured soul.
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
Dipping my toe briefly into the CaptainSwan ship, Hook was a pirate for some 300 years and I’m going to assume it was not sunshine and rainbows. Does he owe it to Emma to explain his past, even his most recent past like killing Blackbeard to get the Jolly Roger back, even though Ariel was counting on Hook’s help? What kind of lies are okay to tell your significant other? Is total honesty more morally responsible? And if Hook never fesses up, do we approve of a relationship that hasn’t been perfectly honest with one another?
And even leaving aside all of the many other horrible things that these guys have done, I think someone’s current/potential romantic partner has a right to know if that someone has murdered romantic partners before–Leopold and Graham for Regina, and Milah (and one could argue indirectly Cora) for Rumple. I know I wouldn’t want to be involved with someone who had a history of murdering his/her past spouses or lovers when they upset him/her! I don’t think that sends a great message about relationships.
Wait a minute….wait a minute….now, the Graham issue, I can give over as murdering of a romantic partner, even though if looked at through Regina’s point of view, was something that needed to happen. Had Graham awoken that night, he could’ve helped Emma break the curse, which in turn would have Henry be taken from Regina, along with her being killed by the town. Sooo….his death was a necessary death, it DID NOT make it right, but it HAD to happen. Though, as I said, will surrender that as murdering romantic partner.
BUT….the Leopold….nooooo….that I can’t give. I have absolutely NO sympathy for Leopold’s death! The man was a sixty something year old jerk who WILLINGLY married his ex-fiancée’s eighteen year old daughter. And then didn’t even marry her for love…he just wanted to find a baby sitter/mother for Snow White, and didn’t even have the decency to get Regina’s answer instead of just accepting whatever his ex-fiancée/Cora answer. Then he blatantly ignored Regina, imprisoned her within the kingdom, and only showed her off as a “trophy wife” at grand events and celebrations, and once that was over, he pretty much locked her back up in the castle, because as Regina told Sydney/Genie in the Forbidden Fruit episode…King Leopold was a jealous man.
And before anyone brings up 2×02 moment when Regina was leaving the castle, and turned back….Please…I beg of you to remember that a certain Dark One did show up, and convinced her to turn back. And knowing Cora, she probably placed a curse on Regina that kept her within the kingdom, only allowed to leave whenever she’s with Leopold(which was never as he seemed to never take her anywhere.)
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
BUT….the Leopold….nooooo….that I can’t give. I have absolutely NO sympathy for Leopold’s death! The man was a sixty something year old jerk who WILLINGLY married his ex-fiancée’s eighteen year old daughter. And then didn’t even marry her for love…he just wanted to find a baby sitter/mother for Snow White, and didn’t even have the decency to get Regina’s answer instead of just accepting whatever his ex-fiancée/Cora answer. Then he blatantly ignored Regina, imprisoned her within the kingdom, and only showed her off as a “trophy wife” at grand events and celebrations, and once that was over, he pretty much locked her back up in the castle, because as Regina told Sydney/Genie in the Forbidden Fruit episode…King Leopold was a jealous man.
While I like Regina, especially since her transformation in S3, I don’t think her unhappy marriage morally justifies her decision to murder Leo. I argued above that Zelena didn’t deserve cold-blooded murder, and she’d actually done morally dangerous things like killing people. While Leo was a lech for marrying a woman only 8 years older than his daughter and unwise to ignore Regina’s emotional plight, I don’t think he was pure evil. Instead, I think he was a man who was self-absorbed and still in mourning for her dead wife, whom Cora murdered. No matter how miserable Regina was in the marriage, no matter how heavily into the dark arts she became thanks to Rumple, the cold-blooded murder of Leo was not the answer.
Maybe, just maybe, if young Regina had gone to Leopold and confessed her unhappiness, he would have released her of their marriage contract before they married. If Regina had wanted, she could’ve had Leo lock away Rumple in a magic cell so as not to influence her, as Prince Charming and Snow later did. I’m just trying to say there were better options than murder. Regina could’ve walked away from that marriage before it happened, since she’d already pushed Cora through a mirror. All she had to do was rid herself of Rumple as I suggested above. People always have another choice, even when they think they don’t. She didn’t have to go through with the marriage to man she didn’t love.
However, Regina did go through with marrying Leo. That was her choice, even if she was guided by people around her. She married Leo and was unhappy in that union. Let’s say that Regina had taken Tinkerbell’s advice and followed through with meeting Robin Hood that night in the tavern. That was after Regina had married Leopold. Now, I’m not one to condone extra marital affairs, but let’s say Regina, a young queen, had fallen in love with a thief. It may have been very tricky yes, not to mention socially unacceptable, for Regina to have a relationship with him. Yet, jut maybe Leo would’ve heard her out if she’d presented her case to him. He may have been a jealous man, or maybe that was Regina’s interpretation. It’s hard to know for sure, since she was lying to the genie to get him to murder Leo on her behalf. She may have been blacklisting the name of her husband to arouse sympathy with the genie. Did Regina ever even try and make her unhappiness known to her husband by talking to him, or did she just grin and bare it all in silence? Now, people may say divorce just was not an option back then, but Leo seemed on the whole, not as evil as say King George. Maybe he would’ve heard Regina’s request to leave their marriage and let her go, or at the very least, found a reason to divorce Regina quietly and after a set time, given Regina her leave to do as she pleased and take up with Robin Hood.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
BUT….the Leopold….nooooo….that I can’t give. I have absolutely NO sympathy for Leopold’s death! The man was a sixty something year old jerk who WILLINGLY married his ex-fiancée’s eighteen year old daughter. And then didn’t even marry her for love…he just wanted to find a baby sitter/mother for Snow White, and didn’t even have the decency to get Regina’s answer instead of just accepting whatever his ex-fiancée/Cora answer. Then he blatantly ignored Regina, imprisoned her within the kingdom, and only showed her off as a “trophy wife” at grand events and celebrations, and once that was over, he pretty much locked her back up in the castle, because as Regina told Sydney/Genie in the Forbidden Fruit episode…King Leopold was a jealous man.
While I like Regina, especially since her transformation in S3, I don’t think her unhappy marriage morally justifies her decision to murder Leo. I argued above that Zelena didn’t deserve cold-blooded murder, and she’d actually done morally dangerous things like killing people. While Leo was a lech for marrying a woman only 8 years older than his daughter and unwise to ignore Regina’s emotional plight, I don’t think he was pure evil. Instead, I think he was a man who was self-absorbed and still in mourning for her dead wife, whom Cora murdered. No matter how miserable Regina was in the marriage, no matter how heavily into the dark arts she became thanks to Rumple, the cold-blooded murder of Leo was not the answer.
He may not have been pure evil….but he was obviously veryyyyy possessive. Evidence of such….Regina could barely leave the castle, and could never step foot outside the kingdom. Only Leopold and his dear daughter Snow could do such.
Maybe, just maybe, if young Regina had gone to Leopold and confessed her unhappiness, he would have released her of their marriage contract before they married. If Regina had wanted, she could’ve had Leo lock away Rumple in a magic cell so as not to influence her, as Prince Charming and Snow later did. I’m just trying to say there were better options than murder. Regina could’ve walked away from that marriage since she’d already pushed Cora through a mirror. People always have another choice, even when they think they don’t. She didn’t have to go through with the marriage to man she didn’t love. However, Regina did go through with marrying Leo. That was her choice, even if she was guided by people around her. She married Leo and was unhappy in that union.Had she gone to Leopold, and confessed such feelings…I’m very sure that he wouldn’t have given two cents. At the end of the day, he needed a baby sitter/mother for Snow White, the Kingdom needed a Queen, and Regina being the fairest in the land along with being some strange, very twisted chance with his ex fiancée’s daughter….Leopold would not have let her go.Other chances than murder…I really wish I could say that I agree, but in those circumstances, I don’t see no other route Regina could have taken. Rumple was locked away because he wanted to be locked away….and his curse wasn’t cast, so I doubt he’d let Leo lock him away. Now that I think about it….I can’t say that Regina would have made it far had she not listened to Rumple, and actually left. She was exactly what Leo needed, and he may have just attempted to track her down. But…the tragic death of Daniel more than likely heavily influenced Regina, which maybe a reason as to how Rumple could so easily persuade her.Let’s say that Regina had taken Tinkerbell’s advice and followed through with meeting Robin Hood that night in the tavern. That was after Regina had married Leopold. Now, I’m not one to condone extra marital affairs, but let’s say Regina, a young queen, had fallen in love with a thief. It may have been tricky yes, not to mention socially unacceptable, for Regina to have a relationship with him. Yet, jut maybe Leo would’ve heard her out if she’d presented her case to him. Now, people may say divorce just was not an option, but Leo seemed on the whole, not as evil as say King George. Maybe he would’ve heard Regina’s request to leave their marriage and let her go, or at the very least, found a reason to divorce Regina quietly and after a set time, given Regina her leave to do as she pleased and take up with Robin Hood.
As I said above….Regina falling in love with Robin Hood would have been wonderful, but nine times out of ten tragic. The Queen leaving the King and the Kingdom for a noble thief who robs the rich to give to the poor…..yeah, the mortification of that alone would have stemmed enough rage out of any King. Now, I’m not just saying this just because I’m an Evil Regal, but I cannot say that Leopold wouldn’t have tried to track Regina down, drag her back home, and either kill Robin Hood for treason, or hand him over to King John. And more than likely…he’d believe her to probably be kidnapped, only intensifying his rage, and would’ve searched every kingdom and land to bring back his trophy wife as well as Snow’s mother/baby sitter.
So….running from the tavern was the best decision Regina could have done for both her and Robin.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Disregard
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Oooooookay.
This is a gentle reminder that this is NOT a “defend your ship” thread. I really don’t want it to turn into that, guys. We have shippers from all over here–CS, SF, OQ, Rumbelle, Snowing, ect. Shippers, by their very nature, defend their ship and the characters passionately and can do it standing on their heads most of the time. That’s NOT the intent of this thread or else it will get ugly fast. We have indivdiual shipping threads and character threads.
I really want to try and get at the heart of a moral message–whatever it may be–of ONCE using our ships, ALL OF THEM, as examples. But PLEASE refrain from defending your ship and being fervent shippers. (Let’s not do the GIF thing either, okay?)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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