Morals and Points of View

[RumplesGirl]

This episode feels like one large exercise in moral relativity. Rumple argues that in the heat of the moment, people will do what they must to save their loved ones. Belle refuses to allow any sort of dark magic and wants Rumple to use his magic only for light purposes.

But by episode’s end, Belle has pushed Gaston into the River and seems defeated and accepted the idea that darkness might have to win sometimes.

So: are morals relative? And in the great Rumple v. Belle debate…who’s right?

[thedarkonedearie]

Such a loaded question haha.  They both are right I think.  Belle had to shove Gaston to protect Rumple.  Is that dark?  I mean yeah but she didn’t use dark magic.  She acted in self-defense to save her husband.  If she now thinks that means sometimes you need to use dark magic to get things done, I just don’t follow the logic.

[RumplesGirl]

I have a lot of thoughts so this might be jumbled but here goes.

I do tend to think that morality is relative. And maybe it should not be, but it is. Our world isn’t black and white, it’s grey. Anything you can call objective evil can be argued (apart from rape which is, IMO, the only true objective evil). Even murder gets rationalized with the death penalty, war, and in the case of the show, protecting someone (ie: Emma and Henry).

This is a show that humanized the Evil Queen by making her an abused child who held her first love in her arms while her mother crushed his heart; this is a show that turned Rumplestiltskin from a wicked imp into a regretful father; who made the Wicked Witch an abandoned and unlovable child; who will make the Lord of the Underworld a brother maligned with a frozen heart. This is a show that, for all its faults (and goodness knows I have no issue in pointing them out) has maintained that there is grey in the world; indeed, insisting that labels like heroes and villains are flexible and change based on, simply, who is telling the story. Let’s be clear: some of what Rumple is saying in this episode is hard to hear. He’s not giving way in his assertion that the darkness is a part of him, that it can be used to protect and save everyone and, simultaneously, help give Belle the kind of life they both want. Rumple’s snark comes out in full force when he questions Belle’s decision to break and enter Gaston’s locker in order to figure out a way to defeat the rogue hunter. If this is acceptable then why not other times when magic is handy to have around? Why is it that Belle is the one who gets to decide when the ends justify the means? Is it simply because her body count is much lower than Rumple’s? How about all the times when Rumple’s magic saved the pair of them (and more!) from utter disaster or destruction? If “Devil’s Due” refocuses Rumple’s character as the father who will do anything–anything, mind you–to protect those he loves, then this episode is about unfocusing Belle’s character, challenging her core and making her (and us) question whether or not she should bend to what it is Rumple is saying

But should that mean that Belle is ready to accept Rumple’s lifestyle and devil-may-care (pun intended) attitude toward Dark Magic? Well, I don’t know. Belle, if that hug and sorrow at the end are any indication, is resigned to the fact that Rumple was right, she was wrong and now she has to live with what she’s done to her former boyfriend/fiance. And yes, to an extent, that certainly is true and it would be interesting to watch her inner turmoil over damning Gaston to the River. There is, however, an issue that I hope (oh dear, that’s contraband) Belle raises with her erstwhile husband: Rumple doesn’t just use the darkness in the heat of the moment to protect those he loves! He uses it when he needs something, when it suits his (read: non-family oriented) ends. And this is really the problem with Rumple as a whole. His justification is always going to be that he’s protecting his family, be it Baelfire or Belle and the new baby, but he said it best last week, “I love this dagger.” He can’t let go of that enchanted object, of the feeling of power and control he has over his own life that the dagger gives to him. So whether it be for his family or not, Rumple still makes bad choices and uses dark magic for nefarious and decidedly non-light reasons. Rumple’s line that he wants to be the man who can use darkness for light “but not today” speaks volumes. When push comes to shove, he’ll take the road he wants to take, consequences be damned. Gaston’s end is an honest accident and Belle probably could have helped him move on by using her heroic virtues of compassion and forgiveness, but instead her lasting impression is not to refocus her own character by these high ideals but to accept Rumple’s own relative morality, to bend to the idea that “darkness always wins.” There is an in-between, Belle dear. We often call it a grey area and I bet, if you tried really hard, you could see it; sort of like how you saw the man beneath the beast and loved both at the same time. Understanding that morals are relative doesn’t mean you can’t strive toward those high ideals of heroism

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[PriceofMagic]

I think this could be really interesting and potentially could lead to Rumple actually becoming genuinely good.

Although Rumple seems pleased that Belle is seeing things his way, he doesn’t want her to be like him. I think things are going to start happening where Rumple will see that Belle is being corrupted by the darkness. He’ll have to make a decision whether to stay as he is and let Belle be dragged down to his level or whether to pull himself up and become good.

Belle is his “flicker of light amidst an ocean of darkness” and he’ll realise if he doesn’t change for the better, that light is going to be snuffed out.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[RumplesGirl]

Belle is his “flicker of light amidst an ocean of darkness” and he’ll realise if he doesn’t change for the better, that light is going to be snuffed out.

That’s a good point. So far no one has gone from light to darkness because of Rumple. Cora was already self centered and selfish; Bae managed to keep himself on the right side of the line. Lacey gave in, I guess, but she was already straddling the line. If Lacey is Belle without the brakes, then it would be very easy for Belle to move over to Lacey-territory with little provocation.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[mousears]

I have a lot of thoughts so this might be jumbled but here goes. I do tend to think that morality is relative. And maybe it should not be, but it is. Our world isn’t black and white, it’s grey. Anything you can call objective evil can be argued (apart from rape which is, IMO, the only true objective evil). Even murder gets rationalized with the death penalty, war, and in the case of the show, protecting someone (ie: Emma and Henry). This is a show that humanized the Evil Queen by making her an abused child who held her first love in her arms while her mother crushed his heart; this is a show that turned Rumplestiltskin from a wicked imp into a regretful father; who made the Wicked Witch an abandoned and unlovable child; who will make the Lord of the Underworld a brother maligned with a frozen heart. This is a show that, for all its faults (and goodness knows I have no issue in pointing them out) has maintained that there is grey in the world; indeed, insisting that labels like heroes and villains are flexible and change based on, simply, who is telling the story. Let’s be clear: some of what Rumple is saying in this episode is hard to hear. He’s not giving way in his assertion that the darkness is a part of him, that it can be used to protect and save everyone and, simultaneously, help give Belle the kind of life they both want. Rumple’s snark comes out in full force when he questions Belle’s decision to break and enter Gaston’s locker in order to figure out a way to defeat the rogue hunter. If this is acceptable then why not other times when magic is handy to have around? Why is it that Belle is the one who gets to decide when the ends justify the means? Is it simply because her body count is much lower than Rumple’s? How about all the times when Rumple’s magic saved the pair of them (and more!) from utter disaster or destruction? If “Devil’s Due” refocuses Rumple’s character as the father who will do anything–anything, mind you–to protect those he loves, then this episode is about unfocusing Belle’s character, challenging her core and making her (and us) question whether or not she should bend to what it is Rumple is saying But should that mean that Belle is ready to accept Rumple’s lifestyle and devil-may-care (pun intended) attitude toward Dark Magic? Well, I don’t know. Belle, if that hug and sorrow at the end are any indication, is resigned to the fact that Rumple was right, she was wrong and now she has to live with what she’s done to her former boyfriend/fiance. And yes, to an extent, that certainly is true and it would be interesting to watch her inner turmoil over damning Gaston to the River. There is, however, an issue that I hope (oh dear, that’s contraband) Belle raises with her erstwhile husband: Rumple doesn’t just use the darkness in the heat of the moment to protect those he loves! He uses it when he needs something, when it suits his (read: non-family oriented) ends. And this is really the problem with Rumple as a whole. His justification is always going to be that he’s protecting his family, be it Baelfire or Belle and the new baby, but he said it best last week, “I love this dagger.” He can’t let go of that enchanted object, of the feeling of power and control he has over his own life that the dagger gives to him. So whether it be for his family or not, Rumple still makes bad choices and uses dark magic for nefarious and decidedly non-light reasons. Rumple’s line that he wants to be the man who can use darkness for light “but not today” speaks volumes. When push comes to shove, he’ll take the road he wants to take, consequences be damned. Gaston’s end is an honest accident and Belle probably could have helped him move on by using her heroic virtues of compassion and forgiveness, but instead her lasting impression is not to refocus her own character by these high ideals but to accept Rumple’s own relative morality, to bend to the idea that “darkness always wins.” There is an in-between, Belle dear. We often call it a grey area and I bet, if you tried really hard, you could see it; sort of like how you saw the man beneath the beast and loved both at the same time. Understanding that morals are relative doesn’t mean you can’t strive toward those high ideals of heroism

Quote

Wow – Just WOW … so eloquently written RG!!!  you covered every single point!  Well done!!!

[thedarkonedearie]

I like how RG put it.  There is a grey area that Belle is not recognizing.  But like what is dark magic?  Is all of Rumple’s magic dark bc he’s the DO?  That’s sort of the impression I got when Emma was the DO bc no one wanted her to do any magic since it was all dark.  But then how could Rumple ever use magic that isn’t dark then?  And like, is using magic to throw a guy who’s trying to kill you in the river dark magic?  I mean what if Regina used her magic to do that?  Or Emma?  Is it not dark magic because they aren’t the DO?  When Emma killed Cruella was that dark magic?  She “used” magic to toss Cruella over the cliff, but if Cruella just fell on the ground and lived would it still be dark magic or is it only dark because she murdered her?  This show needs to convey to me what they consider to be dark magic bc I don’t think even Belle knows at this point.  Apparently opening a lock is dark magic but is it only dark bc it wasn’t theirs?  Like how is this distinguished?  The motion of magic to open the lock remains the same, whether it was their locker or not.  If Emma had used magic to open the locker, would that be considered using dark magic?  Or is it only dark bc Rumple is the DO?  It’s just so confusing bc the show hasn’t nailed down some of it’s definitions thanks to season 5a.

[RumplesGirl]

Wow – Just WOW … so eloquently written RG!!!  you covered every single point!  Well done!!!

Thanks!

Is all of Rumple’s magic dark bc he’s the DO?  That’s sort of the impression I got when Emma was the DO bc no one wanted her to do any magic since it was all dark.

This is really confusing, I agree. If I just straight up ignore S5A (which, god knows I want to) then no, Rumple’s magic is not JUST Dark Magic because he’s the DO. We’ve seen him use it for good and helpful reasons–and even just normal, everyday reasons that have nothing to do with good or bad (like, I dunno, closing a door). S5A really did a number on the mythology and mechanics of the show and, honestly, not for the better. It used to be that magic was magic and it was the person and intention of the person that determined what was going on. Crush a heart? Dark Magic, be you the Dark One or not. Wave your hand and help out a sick child? Not dark magic, be you the Dark One or not.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Gaultheria]

Anything you can call objective evil can be argued (apart from rape which is, IMO, the only true objective evil).

Cultures all over the world and all through time might all agree that rape is wrong, without being able to agree on what rape is, so I don’t think even this is something that counts as objective evil.

Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher

[RumplesGirl]

RumplesGirl wrote:

Anything you can call objective evil can be argued (apart from rape which is, IMO, the only true objective evil).

Cultures all over the world and all through time might all agree that rape is wrong, without being able to agree on what rape is, so I don’t think even this is something that counts as objective evil.

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That is most definitely a fair point.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

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