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Woah! Woah! Woah!
Ummmmm! Wow! Sooooo you mean tell me that all of Regina’s decisions were on her own??? Okay….so, let’s take this back before Regina was even conceived! Before her conception, Rumpelstilskin knew for years that he was going to darken her soul! And technically, because she’s the second born, Regina was darkened for no reason, as it was supposed to be Zelena Rumpelstilskin darkned, but we’ll blame all of that on Cora.
But Regina being the Evil Queen was decided for her, not really of her own free will. And no matter how many times she has tried to run from the darkness, Rumple being the evil imp on her left shoulder was right there to steer her back in. Did Rumple have to answer to Regina when she first called him….No! When Regina was leaving King Leo’s Palace, did Rumple have to show up on that road, and convince her to go back? NO! When Regina only wanted to bring Daniel back, which would have worked had it been the right heart, did Rumple have to get Jefferson and Whale to deceive her, thus tearing away her hope for love and happiness? NO! When Regina had quit Rumple lessons, in a last attempt to be good, did Rumple have to show up and install in her that there was no hope, and that the darkness had already snagged her, and that she’d be nothing without her anger? That there was no hope she could ever find love again, and is doomed to be evil? Did Rumple have to do that….NO!!!
By installing in her that her fate was sealed, and that all she had was the darkness….Regina was unable to find the courage to go into that Tavern and meet Robin Hood. And we have proof of Rumple’s influence blocking that happy ending, when Regina declared in 3×03 that the “Anger and darkness was all that she had” and she had no idea who she’d have been without it.
All of those things combined with Cora’s own dark influence, Snow betrayal, created the Evil Queen. Therefore Rumple holds responsibility over the deaths that were under Regina’s hands. I’m not saying all of it, because Cora and Snow played their parts, but Rumple’s dark influences and actions played a heavy part in the creation of his “MOnster” that he himself said he wanted to make out of Regina. So Regina’s fate toward darkness had been decided long before her birth, and Rumple knew exactly what to do and say to make her into a monster!
As for the Hansel and Gretel….for the last time! Regina always Asked the children to do her the favor, and warned them of the consequences!!! It was their choice to accept her offer, when they could have just as easily rejected. And no that is not similar to the Rumple and Regina situation, because Rumple was dead set on Regina casting that curse, no matter the cost, and would say or do anything to see it through.
As for Zelena situation….uhh Rumple was very hypocritical about that. If all of that was the case, had Regina killed Snow White for murdering Cora, there should not have been a problem besides Henry, who did not want his mother to backslide any further. Thankfully Regina realized that, and settled for watching Snow nearly destroying her own self. But Rumple telling Regina that she couldn’t have everything, and to let vengeance for Cora go….well it’s not that simple when the shoes on the other foot, and he himself couldn’t resist vengeance for Neal, wh0 would NOT have wanted his father to backslide! So really, Rumple played a hand in both killing Regina’s mother, by manipulating Snow, and killing Regina’s sister, by a vengeful manner.
And Rumple killing Zelena, and enacting the time portal which brought Marian back….I think once Regina learns the truth, all of that anger for Emma will be turned towards the very source of where the time portal started, Rumpelstilskin, who is responsible for Marian coming back!
And besides….the whole Zelena situation wouldn’t have happened, if he just said no to training her, but his curiosity killed the cat….in more ways than one. Besides, I doubt if Zelena even tried getting close to her sister, and the potential of love filling both the sister, Rumple would have saw that as a threat to him keeping his monster, and Zelena probably still would have end up dead by Rumple’s hand. But then again, we’ll never know.
[adrotate group="5"]"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
do you think you could manage to have this conversation with us without screaming? It’s really not necessary. We’re having a character conversation in which everyone’s opinions are valid but it’s hard to want to take this conversation further with you yelling at us.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Did Rumple have to answer to Regina when she first called him….No!
Doesn’t change the fact that she still called for him, looking for a dark magical solution
When Regina was leaving King Leo’s Palace, did Rumple have to show up on that road, and convince her to go back? NO!
Doesn’t change the fact that she went back of her own free will; Rumple offered an alternative. She took it. Doesn’t change the fact that she loved magic and the power.
When Regina only wanted to bring Daniel back, which would have worked had it been the right heart, did Rumple have to get Jefferson and Whale to deceive her, thus tearing away her hope for love and happiness? NO!
Doesn’t change the fact that she decided not to move on but rather gave into the darkness more because she enjoyed it and because she was miserable. It’s not as simple as you’re making it out to be.
hen Regina had quit Rumple lessons, in a last attempt to be good, did Rumple have to show up and install in her that there was no hope, and that the darkness had already snagged her, and that she’d be nothing without her anger?
Doesn’t change the fact that she decided not to take the way out. She chose to stay in darkness partly because she enjoyed it.
Her heart was darkend the second she realized Snow played a part in Daniel’s death. She chose to hate that girl on her own.
As for the Hansel and Gretel….for the last time! Regina always Asked the children to do her the favor, and warned them of the consequences!!! It was their choice to accept her offer, when they could have just as easily rejected. And no that is not similar to the Rumple and Regina situation, because Rumple was dead set on Regina casting that curse, no matter the cost, and would say or do anything to see it through.
This is pretty twisted logic. Regina is the adult sending children into a harmful situation. She’s at fault here, not the children. She is sending children unaware of the consequences of going into said house, into-lliterally–the mouth of a murder for her own selfish gains. She is not telling them, this woman will eat you if you are caught. She makes it sound as if they will be 100% fine. If you blame Snow and Rumple for killing Cora even though they did not put Cora’s heart in her, then Regina is to blame for the death of those children, even though she did not eat them herself.
As for Zelena situation….uhh Rumple was very hypocritical about that. If all of that was the case, had Regina killed Snow White for murdering Cora, there should not have been a problem besides Henry, who did not want his mother to backslide any further. Thankfully Regina realized that, and settled for watching Snow nearly destroying her own self
Henry had nothing to do with that. Regina realized that watching Snow tear herself apart would be better than killing Snow outright.
I think once Regina learns the truth, all of that anger for Emma will be turned towards the very source of where the time portal started, Rumpelstilskin, who is responsible for Marian coming back!
What? Rumple locked them in a vault to prevent them from going back. Not his fault Emma figured out how to open the portal and Hook left with Marian before Rumple got there. Marian being alive in SB is all on Emma.
ETA: also, this isn’t the Regina thread. So can we save the defense and discussion of Regina for there? Unless it directly relates to Rumple….
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Woah! Woah! Woah!
Ummmmm! Wow! Sooooo you mean tell me that all of Regina’s decisions were on her own??? Okay….so, let’s take this back before Regina was even conceived! Before her conception, Rumpelstilskin knew for years that he was going to darken her soul! And technically, because she’s the second born, Regina was darkened for no reason, as it was supposed to be Zelena Rumpelstilskin darkned, but we’ll blame all of that on Cora.
Regina isn’t some mindless zombie that doesn’t know the difference between right and wrong. She makes her own decisions. To think otherwise and class Regina as a poor little victim led astray is a discredit to her character.
But Regina being the Evil Queen was decided for her, not really of her own free will. And no matter how many times she has tried to run from the darkness, Rumple being the evil imp on her left shoulder was right there to steer her back in. Did Rumple have to answer to Regina when she first called him….No! When Regina was leaving King Leo’s Palace, did Rumple have to show up on that road, and convince her to go back? NO! When Regina only wanted to bring Daniel back, which would have worked had it been the right heart, did Rumple have to get Jefferson and Whale to deceive her, thus tearing away her hope for love and happiness? NO! When Regina had quit Rumple lessons, in a last attempt to be good, did Rumple have to show up and install in her that there was no hope, and that the darkness had already snagged her, and that she’d be nothing without her anger? That there was no hope she could ever find love again, and is doomed to be evil? Did Rumple have to do that….NO!!!
Regina got the nickname “the evil queen” given to her by her own subjects! She had a tendency to burn down their villages and murder them all because she thought they were protecting Snow White. She was going to have Marian executed as an example of what happens when someone helps Snow White. Rumple was nowhere near that situation. Therefore, Regina DID become the evil Queen of her own free will.
By installing in her that her fate was sealed, and that all she had was the darkness….Regina was unable to find the courage to go into that Tavern and meet Robin Hood. And we have proof of Rumple’s influence blocking that happy ending, when Regina declared in 3×03 that the “Anger and darkness was all that she had” and she had no idea who she’d have been without it.
Regina was still hung up on Daniel, and was married to Leopold at the time. The practicality of just walking out on Leopold with a random stranger just because pixie dust said so was not going to end in Regina’s favour. Regina was afraid to be happy but also probably felt overwhelmed that her supposedly happy ending was right there in front of her.
All of those things combined with Cora’s own dark influence, Snow betrayal, created the Evil Queen. Therefore Rumple holds responsibility over the deaths that were under Regina’s hands. I’m not saying all of it, because Cora and Snow played their parts, but Rumple’s dark influences and actions played a heavy part in the creation of his “MOnster” that he himself said he wanted to make out of Regina. So Regina’s fate toward darkness had been decided long before her birth, and Rumple knew exactly what to do and say to make her into a monster!
Basically what your saying is that Regina is not responsible for her own actions and it’s always somebody else’s fault. So when Regina locked Belle in her tower and then put Belle in the asylum for 28 years, I guess it was all Belle’s fault because she just so happened to be loved by Rumple. When Regina was trying to make Henry believe he was crazy in season 1, I guess it was all Henry’s fault just because he had to be an inconvenience and discover the truth about Storybrooke. When Regina took Graham’s heart, made him sleep with her then crushed it when he dumped her, I guess it was all Graham’s fault because he decided to do the noble thing and spare Snow’s life. How dare he! Poor little Regina is so innocent, all those other people made her do it. All the misery she has caused wasn’t her own doing because poor little Regina can’t be held accountable for her own actions.
As for the Hansel and Gretel….for the last time! Regina always Asked the children to do her the favor, and warned them of the consequences!!! It was their choice to accept her offer, when they could have just as easily rejected. And no that is not similar to the Rumple and Regina situation, because Rumple was dead set on Regina casting that curse, no matter the cost, and would say or do anything to see it through.
Yes Hansel and Gretel could have easily rejected Regina’s offer when their choice was either help her or never see their father again. Regina kidnapped their father to put them in that position. Regina herself said “You’re not the first children I’ve sent into the sticky sweet house but you are the first to come out”. Rumple was nowhere near the Hansel and Gretel situation, neither was Cora since she was in Wonderland. I guess it must all be Snow’s fault since she had to be inconsiderate and not just let Regina kill her. Regina isn’t to blame at all.
As for Zelena situation….uhh Rumple was very hypocritical about that. If all of that was the case, had Regina killed Snow White for murdering Cora, there should not have been a problem besides Henry, who did not want his mother to backslide any further. Thankfully Regina realized that, and settled for watching Snow nearly destroying her own self. But Rumple telling Regina that she couldn’t have everything, and to let vengeance for Cora go….well it’s not that simple when the shoes on the other foot, and he himself couldn’t resist vengeance for Neal, wh0 would NOT have wanted his father to backslide! So really, Rumple played a hand in both killing Regina’s mother, by manipulating Snow, and killing Regina’s sister, by a vengeful manner.
Two things:
1. It’s easy to say “let it go” when you’re not the one who’s lost someone in a tragic way or been on the receiving end of someone’s misdeeds.
2. The is a slight difference between Regina’s revenge and Rumple’s revenge. Regina wanted to harm a member of Henry’s family and still have Henry love her- something which was nigh impossible. Regina couldn’t literally have both. Rumple wasn’t trying to kill a member of Belle’s family and still have Belle love him. Therefore, Rumple’s revenge wasn’t going to be directly at odds with having Belle love him.
And Rumple killing Zelena, and enacting the time portal which brought Marian back….I think once Regina learns the truth, all of that anger for Emma will be turned towards the very source of where the time portal started, Rumpelstilskin, who is responsible for Marian coming back!
Emma was the one who decided to bring Marian back, not Rumple.
And besides….the whole Zelena situation wouldn’t have happened, if he just said no to training her, but his curiosity killed the cat….in more ways than one. Besides, I doubt if Zelena even tried getting close to her sister, and the potential of love filling both the sister, Rumple would have saw that as a threat to him keeping his monster, and Zelena probably still would have end up dead by Rumple’s hand. But then again, we’ll never know.
Zelena was jealous of Regina when she saw Regina being trained through the magic mirror thing. That was before Rumple and Regina had even met Zelena. Rumple knew a daughter of Cora’s would cast the curse. He wasn’t expecting there to be two daughters. He trained Zelena because he wasn’t sure which daughter would be the one to cast the curse.
Zelena was never going to have love for Regina because she saw her as stealing the life she should’ve had. That was the whole point of Zelena’s plan to go back in time- to erase Regina from existence and live the life she believed she should’ve live.
Also Regina NEEDS to be responsible for her own actions otherwise her whole redemption arc was a pointless waste of time since Regina would not “need” to be redeemed because she wasn’t accountable for her actions. To take away Regina’s accountability for her past actions and blame it all on Rumple would be to diminish her character and turn her into a complete and utter Mary-Sue.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felixdo you think you could manage to have this conversation with us without screaming? It’s really not necessary. We’re having a character conversation in which everyone’s opinions are valid but it’s hard to want to take this conversation further with you yelling at us.
I’m sorry @RumplesGirl….my Evil Regal Feelings tend to overeact at times…they’re super sensitive during a hiatus. Then going through the Once withdrawals, plus my patience level has been low lately(curse that Eve for eating that forbidden fruit and forcing women to go through this!)…Sorry!
And I guess….the overall Rumple/Regina situation put into simpler quote….Regina may have pulled the trigger, but Rumpelstilskin loaded the gun. So her turning out the way she did, he had major influence, and it was practically as easy as taking candy from a baby considering Henry Sr. was too much of a coward to talk sense into her. But then again…what’s happened is what’s happened….and even though it sent her through much turmoil and depression, without Rumpelstilskin, there would be no Storybrooke. And I can’t believe I’m saying this, but thank god he pushed her into casting the curse….Enchanted Forest was just….no comment.
Back to the Rumpelstilskin conversation topic…..The line of redemption for him…..where does it stand? Has he taken too many steps back, and how long do you think it’d be before he can get back on the side of good and Honest.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Back to the Rumpelstilskin conversation topic…..The line of redemption for him…..where does it stand? Has he taken too many steps back, and how long do you think it’d be before he can get back on the side of good and Honest.
I don’t think Rumple has really left the side of good. He’s in anti-hero territory right now, and hopefully with Belle by his side, he can progress and elevate himself into hero territory.
Rumple and Regina are the ones that tend to do the darker things so that the heroes don’t have to. They are valuable to the team, they just sometimes need reigning in.
Here’s a question: With the prophesy now passed and with Neal’s unfortunate demise, how do you think the Henry/Rumple relationship will fare?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felixhmm I tried to write a lenghty response to this fate vs free will discussion, but it became a big unreadable mess LOL.. and Im too tired right now to start over so I boiled it Down to this-
WR: I love Regina as much as any other Evil Regal, but what you are doing is reducing her to some object of Rumple’s desires and in a way, at least thats what it feels like to me, you are de-humanizing her. When you take away her blame you also take away her free choice- She becomes nothing but Rumple’s doll.
We dont need to take away the blame on her in order to feel compassion for her.
There is enough Things to blame Rumple for on his own, he doesnt need to be blamed for Reginas mistakes too. I agree though that he had a lot to do with why she made some of her mistakes, but they are still her mistakes. We can blame him for putting the knife(magic book) in her hands, but we cant blame him for her choice to ultimately use it.
(I might have used that knife methaphor on here before, sorry for that, but its a good one 😉 )
Back to the Rumpelstilskin conversation topic…..The line of redemption for him…..where does it stand? Has he taken too many steps back, and how long do you think it’d be before he can get back on the side of good and Honest.
He’s definitenly in anti-hero territory right now. The next half will determine where he lands, I think.
Here’s a question: With the prophesy now passed and with Neal’s unfortunate demise, how do you think the Henry/Rumple relationship will fare?
I have a very negative outlook on this. Sorry.
I think the writers will keep Henry away from Rumple. They don’t seem to be interested in Rumple’s family outside of Neal and Belle, which is mental given that Emma and Henry are his family, and by that extent so are Snow and Charming. I would like to believe that they’ll put Henry and Rumple together to talk and mourn, as they should. but…*sigh* My hopes. They be low, folks.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"And I guess….the overall Rumple/Regina situation put into simpler quote….Regina may have pulled the trigger, but Rumpelstilskin loaded the gun. So her turning out the way she did, he had major influence, and it was practically as easy as taking candy from a baby considering Henry Sr. was too much of a coward to talk sense into her. But then again…what’s happened is what’s happened….and even though it sent her through much turmoil and depression, without Rumpelstilskin, there would be no Storybrooke. And I can’t believe I’m saying this, but thank god he pushed her into casting the curse….Enchanted Forest was just….no comment.
Back to the Rumpelstilskin conversation topic…..The line of redemption for him…..where does it stand? Has he taken too many steps back, and how long do you think it’d be before he can get back on the side of good and Honest.
did I miss this before or you just added it? Well it seems like we are basically saying the same thing anyway just using the Words a bit differently maybe, you even used the same methapor only with a gun 😀
Here is a question for ya: if Regina’s choices are determined by outer influences, such as Rumple… Then this must also mean Rumple’s choices are determined by outer influences.. what are those then?
Here is a question for ya: if Regina’s choices are determined by outer influences, such as Rumple… Then this must also mean Rumple’s choices are determined by outer influences.. what are those then?
Rumple is a also a product of circumstance but he also made his own choices. Milah, war, poverty, Malcolm…they all made Rumple the man he is…but so did Rumple himself.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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