Neal & Emma

[kfchimera]

@EastOfTheSun wrote:

@MysteryKat25 wrote:

He can hope all he wants but at the end of the day Emma knows that he knew about all of it, abandoned her in jail, and as annoyed as she will hopefully be with August someday she’ll know that Neal had the option to come find her the moment the curse was broken and confess all and say he did what he did out of love…and instead was off avoiding her because of his dad and getting engaged to someone else. That does not scream love to me. Coward sure, like father like son, but he CHOSE this path. He may be nice and sweet but Emma’s right about the hurtful side. He makes bad choices and apparently hasn’t stopped making them…yet.

I agree with SOME things you say, (I say this loving Nealfire, Swanfire and liking CaptainSwan too)….Nealfire has to make up for his wrongs (sending Emma to jail SO not nice), he has made some bad choices for sure, and acted cowardly by leaving Emma because of the possibility of being reunited with his father….. BUT I think that he is a GOOD person , and he did want her to be happy and truly loves her, and that everything that happened after Manhattan, seeing her again was a total surprise for him, I believe in his mind he thought when Emma would break the curse, she would have her family, and that they would all go back to fairytale land!! We have not seen August/Neal talk about the details of the curse yet, SO we don’t know if August told him they would all go back to FTL (remember Neal acted surprised to see Emma, he told her “what are you doing here??” this could point to that theory, also to back that up Everyone in the episode “Broken” was asking themselves WHY they did not go back to FTL),

So MAYBE Nealfire though he DID NOT HAVE AN OPTION!! Emma was gone forever (I will believe that until having the writers prove me otherwise) that he would NEVER see Emma again, and as the writers have said he thought “that door was closed for him”, so that is why I think he tried to move on with Tamara, because he thought Emma was forever gone as a possibility for him, But now I guess things could change….Still I hope for Swanfire to work it out, I agree they have a LONG way to go,lots of issues to resolve, BUT maybe the could fall in love again, or maybe not…we will see…

That was my take on it too, Eastofthesun, but with one wrinkle. I think at the time Neal agreed to send Emma to jail, at least until he asked for the postcard, he thought Emma would be free once the curse was broken. Then at some point later on, August reveals that Emma won’t be in the real world when the curse is broken and tells Neal to move on. Not that anyone should take relationship advice from Pinocchio, let alone a version who has spent a decade as a bachelor in Phuket (party hot spot reputation & all). But we don’t know that Neal knew August’s FTL identity or even the story of Pinocchio. His reaction when Emma mentions Pinocchio in Manhattan was hard for me to read. Neal trusted August to give Emma money, that it seems August ran away with. So there was probably a lot August did not tell Neal. If Neal had known of Pinocchio’s reputation as a liar/puppet, would he have trusted him?

[MysteryKat25]

Great questions. We saw that August mailed a package to Emma in jail from Thailand so did he come back at any point and see Neal again or did he simply keep his promise about sending the postcard and then stayed in Thailand until Emma arrived in SB? I’m not convinced he ever said she wouldn’t be available when the curse broke (or how he might have known in detail what would happen at that time). Also, August did keep his word and sent the postcard which leads me to believe that he never told Neal any such thing. If he did then that’s more excusable but until I see it this is all I have to go on. I really think August was only involved long enough to send Neal away from Emma and then he took her money and ran off to Thailand and sent her the car keys.

I’m not saying I’m completely opposed to the SwanFire thing (and I’ve admitted before it’s probably endgame. I’ll deal as long as they make it worth it for me). I’m just saying that right now as sweet as some of the little moments can be, there are still major issues above and beyond just the fact that he has a fiancee. From what we actually KNOW, he fully expected to get the postcard, was begrudgingly doing what August wanted him to do etc, and then had a major turnaround where he either gave up or decided it was for the best when they parted ways last time – even though he then tried to send her money and give her a car – looking forward to him seeing that car again though!

The rest of it is just little issues I have with Neal currently (as much as I DO like him) because he’s basically sitting there making fun of her and oh how cute you’re jealous when he should have said something earlier instead of flirting around like they’re still teenagers and conveniently forgetting about Tamara until he needs her car. He had the whole way to the car to explain it (and it did look like he was about to before she showed up) but to mock Emma now is a little self-serving: he wants her to feel that way, he’s happy she does, and he did start to apologize for the way she found out about Tamara – I just don’t like the way he’s handled it because it does seem a little selfish / mean toward Emma. He’s trying to have his cake and eat it too.

And then there’s the bar thing: he totally had the opportunity to win me over when Emma was pouring her heart out saying how much she loved him back then and was hurt by it and instead he just glossed over it with well something good was supposed to come out of it (which it did: Henry) and it’s all fate, destiny, etc. He sure as heck didn’t fight back and say he loved her! I was waiting for him to stand up to her the way he eventually did to Rumple in his apartment when he protected her. I expected them to yell, scream, do SOMETHING, and he just bemoans destiny and acts like it’s no big deal. If he wanted to prove to her that there was “good reasoning” behind it and not just taking advice from Pinocchio this would have been the opportune time. Heat of the moment, high emotions, adrenaline rush: I wanted the argument and it was one-sided! Emma was the only one talking about feelings. Yes Neal said he wanted her to be with her family again…but he basically said “and I don’t want anything to do with that world / life so that’s why I walked away so easily.” THIS was the biggest issue I had with it. Even if he’s just talking about the past (she did use past tense) he could have saved himself over and over in Manhattan saying that he did all of this because he loved her and he never once used that word!

Now in all fairness he may have felt guilty because of the Tamara thing and making love declarations to exes isn’t overly helpful in that situation but using past tense would have been ok. I was expecting him to say something like “I LOVED YOU TOO, but blah blah blah.” …he didn’t do that. He could have alleviated so much of Emma’s obvious pain by saying he cared about her too and that’s not what any of this was about, and he chose not to do that.

Kinda goes along with the “lost boy” / Peter theory – they were always just looking for a “mother” to make them feel loved and Peter was never very good at realizing what was right in front of him until it was too late (ended up with Wendy’s granddaughter rather than Wendy herself). Right now he’s still got tons of chances / ways to fix it but I want that conversation. I WANT him to say it rather than just be gleeful over the fact that she’s apparently jealous when he created this situation on his own.

As for August and what he may or may not have told him…August better get ready for Emma’s wrath cause now he’s ruined her life twice over (once in trying to fix it and put her back on the right path but still) and regardless of what he said it does not *currently* excuse Neal’s behavior. He still chose staying away from Rumple over building a life with Emma. The only reason he’s still around is because Hook almost killed his dad, and because now he knows he has a son. Otherwise he’d have stayed right where he was the moment Emma said they were leaving and going back to the rest of their family.

He may come around soon, I hope he gets his act together, I do enjoy their interactions: it just doesn’t excuse the lousy behavior he’s shown recently, even when not meaning to. I expect a good long conversation addressing some of these things on their walk back from goodness knows where Cora sent them. Give me SOMETHING to WANT to love about him (in general he is lovable, albeit sometimes misguided) and not just have him keep making fun of her jealousy and enjoying it when he’s still with someone else! Such a guy thing to do *growls*

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[MysteryKat25]

Just a side note: I’m not posting here to be mean or anti-SwanFire or anything. Even though I am a CaptainSwan fan I do see the potential in SwanFire and frankly if it’s gonna happen I just want them to win me over and I’ve seen a couple of missed opportunities lately. I’m very open-minded on it, really I am!

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[Josephine]

Where do people get that Peter Pan ended up with Wendy’s granddaughter? He never settles down and comes back to the future generations of girls in Wendy’s family to go take the place of “Mother” before they grow up.

As you look at Wendy, you may see her hair becoming white, and her figure little again, for all this happened long ago. Jane is now a common grown-up, with a daughter called Margaret; and every spring cleaning time, except when he forgets, Peter comes for Margaret and takes her to the Neverland, where she tells him stories about himself, to which he listens eagerly. When Margaret grows up she will have a daughter, who is to be Peter’s mother in turn; and thus it will go on, so long as children are gay and innocent and heartless.

–J. M. Barrie, Peter Pan

I think that K&H hit it on the head as was stated previously that he thought that door was closed. He really never thought he’d ever have a chance with her, again, so he went on with his life. All the relationships lately are going back to what Eddie and Adam keep saying about true love vs. other types of love and making certain decisions.

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[MysteryKat25]

You’re probably right Jo, I am thinking of the movie “Hook”…haven’t seen any other version in awhile so in need of a refresher course for sure. As for originals vs anything else the originals are often much darker / more depressing than the Disney versions (and others) that we’re familiar with. Regardless I look forward to where they take any of the storylines, just to see what twists and turns they come up with. That’s just what it made me think of given the Peter / Lost Boy theorizing going on.

Agreed on the decisions stuff. There’s potential for most couples to have either been just a love in the past (like Rumple & Milah, or Rumple & Cora) and then true loves (like Rumple & Belle). The contrasts and comparisons are interesting (I used the Rumple example because of the magical evidence defining it undoubtably as true love for RumBelle).

It’ll be interesting to see where Neal & Emma end up because of the decisions they have both made. It just breaks my heart to see that Neal was so upset about walking away from her that he had August send her the car keys (and money was supposed to go too, grr at August) and that Emma spent 2 years in Tallahassee looking for him and he never showed. Feels like they’ve already invested a lot into it and it didn’t work out before, so lots to make peace with to move forward if only for Henry’s sake.

As I said earlier, he’s been making a lot of bad decisions and he hasn’t learned from it…yet. I think he will soon once he sees what he’s lost out on and how much pain there is all around. Even if it’s in another form of just being around for Henry’s sake and making peace with the past – which in itself is a good stepping stone to a future with Emma if that’s the case. Foundations are vital. Jumping back into something because it was right for the people you used to be 10 years ago makes me nervous and feels like it just sets up disappointment since they’ve changed.

Darn you Emma for being so shippable with everybody! (Though I do love that as well, it’s non-predetermined in the viewers minds since we didn’t grow up with the story of Emma and _____) but must there be so many good options?!? (They’ve eliminated quite a few already but it was still a long list to begin with!)

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[Josephine]

This conversation brings to mind the song by the group Little Texas called “What Might Have Been”. The story is about a couple separated and coming together once more, but realizing maybe it’s better to leave everything in the past and move on. Is it really worth it to pick back up again or should you move on to other things.

What Might Have Been

“What Might Have Been”

Sure I think about you now and then, but it’s been a long, long time
Well I’ve got a good life now, I moved on
So when you cross my mind

I try not to think about what might have been
Cause that was then and we have taken different roads
We can’t go back again
There’s no use giving in
And theres no way to know what might have been

We can sit and talk about this all night long and wonder why we didn’t last
Yes, they might be the best days we will ever know
But we’ll have to leave them in the past

So try not to think about what might have been…

Same old look in your eyes,
It’s a beautiful night
I’m so tempted to stay
But too much time has gone by
We should just say goodbye and turn and walk away

Try not to think about what might have been…

No we’ll never know what might have been.

Let’s hope our SwanThief/SwanFire has a better ending. We might not know what might have been, but there still is “what may be”. 😎

Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.

[MysteryKat25]

Beautiful connection Jo! I can honestly see it going either way since nothing is set in stone. They’ve already shown a lot of “might have beens” so it’s not out of the realm of possibility, and then there’s the beautiful story arc it would bring to bring them back together. The show would be way too predictable if the only love stories were those involving characters we’ve grown up with and know who they belong with.

Emma’s just so darn shippable I doubt they’ll even tie her down to anybody anytime soon. She’s got other priorities and as much as it annoys some it gives the rest of us hope for whatever ships we like instead of just knocking everybody else out of the ring which is good storytelling in my opinion. Triangles can get annoying but at the same time this was never a show where it has a “will they or won’t they” for the two main characters and you know eventually it has to get to that point.

There’s lots of loving relationships to follow and a little bit of something for everyone. Leaving Emma open to whatever and having her love life take a back seat to more pressing matters is a good thing. (All the ships can find their little moments along the way and enjoy the journey) 🙂

Personally best case scenario is that they give us enough to work with to at least be torn and wonder who so-and-so should be with so that ultimately we’re ok with whoever they end up with. I’m enjoying being torn and seeing a couple different directions Emma could go. It means they can still surprise me and that regardless of which ship ends up happening I have hope that I’ll learn to love it.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[rapunzel_is_a_ginger]

If Neal actually IS Peter Pan though, I think a lot of his behavior could be explained by that. The jealousy and bad decisions are marks of immaturity. I think he feels bad for what happened and still loves Emma, but at the same time I don’t think he has the emotional maturity to open up and reverts to being semi-flirtatious and sarcastic to cover it. When he can’t cover his emotions, you can see the difference. One of the moments I’m thinking of is when Rumple is trying to apologize as he’s dying and Neal responds “But I’m still angry.” His voice there just sounds so childlike and “small” but the situation won’t let him revert to his normal sarcasm. Neal is going to have to do a lot of emotional “growing up”.

[MysteryKat25]

Very good point Rapunzel_is_a_Ginger! That would explain a lot. After all he presumably stayed 14 for a couple hundred years, that’s enough to make anybody a little awkward.

Keeper of Hook's Trenchcoat.

[antbee]

@EastOfTheSun wrote:

I agree with SOME things you say, (I say this loving Nealfire, Swanfire and liking CaptainSwan too)….Nealfire has to make up for his wrongs (sending Emma to jail SO not nice), he has made some bad choices for sure, and acted cowardly by leaving Emma because of the possibility of being reunited with his father….. BUT I think that he is a GOOD person , and he did want her to be happy and truly loves her, and that everything that happened after Manhattan, seeing her again was a total surprise for him, I believe in his mind he thought when Emma would break the curse, she would have her family, and that they would all go back to fairytale land!! We have not seen August/Neal talk about the details of the curse yet, SO we don’t know if August told him they would all go back to FTL (remember Neal acted surprised to see Emma, he told her “what are you doing here??” this could point to that theory, also to back that up Everyone in the episode “Broken” was asking themselves WHY they did not go back to FTL),

So MAYBE Nealfire though he DID NOT HAVE AN OPTION!! Emma was gone forever (I will believe that until having the writers prove me otherwise) that he would NEVER see Emma again, and as the writers have said he thought “that door was closed for him”, so that is why I think he tried to move on with Tamara, because he thought Emma was forever gone as a possibility for him, But now I guess things could change….Still I hope for Swanfire to work it out, I agree they have a LONG way to go,lots of issues to resolve, BUT maybe the could fall in love again, or maybe not…we will see…

Yes, I agree that he made the wrong choice although he did have good intentions, but he needs to do a lot for Emma to forgive him. However, I don’t think he was acting smugly at all when he and Emma were bantering, ymmv, but even though he may have feelings for Tamara, I think he settled for her because he never thought he would have a chance with Emma again. Now that Emma is back in his life though, I think part of him really wants to recapture what they had before hence him trying to banter like they use to, but the other part thinks that it won’t ever happen because she’s moved on and he’s not worthy enough for her.

And then there’s the bar thing: he totally had the opportunity to win me over when Emma was pouring her heart out saying how much she loved him back then and was hurt by it and instead he just glossed over it with well something good was supposed to come out of it (which it did: Henry) and it’s all fate, destiny, etc. He sure as heck didn’t fight back and say he loved her! I was waiting for him to stand up to her the way he eventually did to Rumple in his apartment when he protected her. I expected them to yell, scream, do SOMETHING, and he just bemoans destiny and acts like it’s no big deal. If he wanted to prove to her that there was “good reasoning” behind it and not just taking advice from Pinocchio this would have been the opportune time. Heat of the moment, high emotions, adrenaline rush: I wanted the argument and it was one-sided! Emma was the only one talking about feelings. Yes Neal said he wanted her to be with her family again…but he basically said “and I don’t want anything to do with that world / life so that’s why I walked away so easily.” THIS was the biggest issue I had with it. Even if he’s just talking about the past (she did use past tense) he could have saved himself over and over in Manhattan saying that he did all of this because he loved her and he never once used that word!

Like Rapunzel, I think part of it is Neal still being stuck at 14 for a very long time, and the other part is that he probably feels like there was no chance even if he said that he still had romantic feelings for Emma. I’m sure eventually he will fight for her, but I don’t think the writers wanted that to happen at that time because right now Emma really isn’t the focus anymore because they had to set up Cora and Regina trying to find the Dagger, Hook going to NYC to kill Rumple, and revealing the prophecy that Rumple knows about Henry more than focusing on Emma’s romantic life. I’m sure later on, probably next season, they’ll get around to that again, but I just don’t think they had the time and space to work that into the last few episodes. I think it’s enough, at least for me, that there’s some feelings there on both sides. I don’t know if anything will come of it, but I think it was nice to see Neal and Emma bantering in this episode and in “The Queen Is Dead” because when they did, it was one of the few light-hearted moments of two very intense episodes. To me it was like how there was the funny scene in “Manhattan” of Snowing talking about how messed up Thanksgiving would be because that episode was also very intense, and they needed a way to add a touch of levity in the past three episodes.

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