Neal's death in not on Zelena's hands

[Felie]

Neal’s death was his own fault. There, I said it *waits for inevitable rocks*. I know this may make me very unpopular with all you Neal fans, but hear me out first –

After he found out that the whole Lumière-vault-key thing was a set-up by the Wicked Witch, so that she could get her hands on Rumple, he shouldn’t have gone through with opening the ‘vault’. And the knowledge that it was a set-up by the Witch exonerates her from any blame concerning Neal’s death.

Here’s why I think this; Finding out that the whole thing was a set-up by the Witch to get her hands on Rumple meant that A) She knew about the ‘vault’ herself B) she also knew where to find it C) she also knew where the key was. So why didn’t Neal stop to think ‘why hasn’t she done the job herself?’, thus concluding that there must be a good reason why she wanted someone else to do it for her? Well, because of his own selfish desire to see his father and use him to get back to Henry.

Neal shrugged off all of Belle’s (very legitimate) concerns about, and arguments against, reviving Rumple. He was willing to risk everybody’s safety to fulfil his selfish desires, and it ended up costing him his life. Had he and Belle not discovered that the whole thing was a trick, then the Witch would have been 100% to blame.

This is just an observation I made, so please be civil folks.

[PriceofMagic]

I disagree. Zelena is still to blame. Neal was desperate, and desperation can lead people to make poor decisions.

You send a dehydrated man out to sea with nothing to drink, he’s going to drink the sea water regardless of the fact it’ll end up killing him. Are you responsible for his death? You dangle the chance to see Henry and Emma again in front of Neal, he’s going to take it.

Snow was to blame for Daniel’s death because she told Cora despite Regina telling her not to.

It’s Henry’s fault what went down with Peter Pan because Henry gave Pan his heart. It’s Henry’s fault Pan got to Storybrooke because Henry didn’t shout for help when Pan appeared in the ship cabin. Rumple’s sacrifice was Henry’s fault because the preceding events were Henry’s fault. Therefore Neal’s sacrifice to undo Rumple’s sacrifice was Henry’s fault.

It’s easy to play the blame game. Neal was vulnerable because he was desperate. When another person, such as Zelena, preys on a person’s vulnerabilities to get what they want, the only person to blame is not the victim but rather the one who preyed on the victim. In this case, that’s Zelena.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Felie]

Yey, A debate!  I love them so much! Thanks for leaving a comment on my thread PoM

Now, on with the show;

I think you’re comparison of Neal to a dehydrated man is flawed on three levels;
1) Neal was not in a damned-if-I-do-damned-if-I-don’t situation. The dehydrated man will die without water anyway, so what’s the difference as long as his thirst is quenched (a desperate, dehydrated man may think)? The dehydrated man knows that seawater is going to both quench his thirst and kill him, whereas in Neal’s situation there are many unknowns

2) the dehydrated man’s time is running out fast, as are his options, if he doesn’t get water soon he’ll die. Neal had the choice to walk away, find help and then return, or maybe even to move on with his life (a choice that would have been painful, yes, but a choice that would ultimately be the best for everyone)

3) after finding out it was a set-up he should have suspected, despite his desperation, that all was not as it seemed.

Also, comparing a grown man (who has been through, and seen enough to know better) to two children is not a good way to argue the point. With Zelena and Neal it was adult vs. adult, with the other two scenarios it was (manipulative) adult vs. (naive) child. Neal also had another adult telling him not to go ahead with his plans, while the only adult persuading him to go ahead was himself, NOT Zelena  (unlike the case with Henry and Pan, when Henry was persuaded by Pan to give his heart).  Your arguments are straw-man fallacies (ironic, considering our Oz themed topic ;)).

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[WickedRegal]

Personally….I think that we cannot place 100 percent of the blame on Zelena because she really had nothing to do with it…she was just standing by and not doing anything to stop it. It was Neal’s decision to bring back Rumple, he just never knew the cost (which is strange and ironic as Rumple’s quote was “All magic comes with a price”)

So I cannot blame Zelena for Neal’s death….if anything…Lumiere is more responsible if you ask me

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[PriceofMagic]

Touche Felie, however, Zelena still took advantage of Neal’s desperation. She deliberately planted Lumiere to give Belle and Neal just enough information to lead them to the vault. The only reason Belle suspected something was amiss was because Lumiere cocked up and made a mistake. I bet Zelena planted the key too. Had Lumiere not messed up, then Neal would’ve used the key anyway making his death Zelena’s fault.

Had Neal found out it was a trap in the library, he may have decided not to go through with it and tried to find another way. However with the way right in front of him, Neal took it. Neal took the bait just like Zelena wanted him to. What parent wouldn’t do anything they could to get back to their child?

Zelena took advantage of Neal, and it had to be Neal. Belle doesn’t have the emotional ties to Henry or Emma that Neal does. Zelena deliberately set it up so that Neal would open the vault.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Felie]

I agree with the first part of your post. Everything that happened in the castle and up until they found out it was a set-up was all Zelena’s doing. I meant to say that had they not discovered the set-up then it would have been her fault, but forgot to add it for some reason.

Had Neal found out it was a trap in the library, he may have decided not to go through with it and tried to find another way. However with the way right in front of him, Neal took it. Neal took the bait just like Zelena wanted him to. What parent wouldn’t do anything they could to get back to their child? Zelena took advantage of Neal, and it had to be Neal. Belle doesn’t have the emotional ties to Henry or Emma that Neal does. Zelena deliberately set it up so that Neal would open the vault.

Yes, I understand that he was desperate, but he wasn’t running out of time in any way. He could have waited and sought another path. The fact that he thought the answer to his problems lay only a few feet away from him was no reason to jump in without thinking it through. No one was there threatening him to do it ‘or else’, he had time to sit and think of the consequences/alternatives/etc.

It doesn’t matter that Zelena set everything up for Neal, we’ve already established her role in the whole thing. The fact is that Neal made a stupid, reckless decision, despite knowing that it was exactly what the Witch wanted him to do. He was an adult who should have known better, but I’m not saying he deserved to die.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

Personally….I think that we cannot place 100 percent of the blame on Zelena because she really had nothing to do with it…she was just standing by and not doing anything to stop it. It was Neal’s decision to bring back Rumple, he just never knew the cost (which is strange and ironic as Rumple’s quote was “All magic comes with a price”) So I cannot blame Zelena for Neal’s death….if anything…Lumiere is more responsible if you ask me

Yes. Just… yes.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[PriceofMagic]

I agree we cannot blame 100% of the blame on Zelena, but at the same time we cannot exonerate her from it either. Zelena played her part which led to Bae’s death.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Felie]

“To hell with the costs!” – Neal, just before turning the key.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Keb]

Yeah, Neal made a choice. But if I were going to put credit for his death somewhere, it would be on Zelena. She set it in motion, just as Regina gets credit for killing a village when all she did was order her guards to do it. Neal only chose to disregard unknown costs; it didn’t occur to him that his life might be the cost. Zelena knew it, and manipulated Lumiere into playing on Neal and Belle’s desperation. Lumiere, incidentally, slightly redeemed himself in saving Belle.

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

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