Neal's death in not on Zelena's hands

[Felie]

Thanks for commenting on my thread 🙂

Yeah, Neal made a choice. But if I were going to put credit for his death somewhere, it would be on Zelena. She set it in motion, just as Regina gets credit for killing a village when all she did was order her guards to do it. Neal only chose to disregard unknown costs; it didn’t occur to him that his life might be the cost. Zelena knew it, and manipulated Lumiere into playing on Neal and Belle’s desperation. Lumiere, incidentally, slightly redeemed himself in saving Belle.

Comparing the village massacre to Neal’s death is a false comparison to make, since you seem to be comparing Zelena to Regina, instead of comparing Neal to the villagers. Regina, as far as I can remember, either killed all those villagers by her own hands (using magic), or ordered her soldiers to massacrer them. The villagers (aka; the ones that perished) had absolutely no choice in their outcome, nor did they have any chance of escape. They were powerlessly at the mercy of an evil tyrant who played an active role in their bloody end. However, as you quite rightly pointed out, Neal was the one who decided to take the action which ultimately led to his death. In your example you are comparing those who died powerless, and without choice in a massacre (the villagers) to a man whose literal attitude to the potential consequences of his actions was, and I quote; “To hell with the costs!”.

As I mentioned in a post above, had Neal and Belle not discovered Zelena’s plot then, and only then, would the blame lie in Zelena’s hands. As the only thing Neal would have been ‘guilty’ of is naivete. As they did discover the plot however, the choice Neal took to be reckless and go ahead with turning the key regardless of the potential danger such an action could lead to, meant that he was the one responsible for his own death. He was an adult who made a choice, despite Belle’s warnings and concerns, therefore he must bare the blame. Adults don’t get to make informed decisions and cast blame on someone else when it doesn’t work out. And by informed I mean he was informed by Lumiere that the whole thing was a set-up by the Wicked Witch, which should have been the only information he needed to make the right decision.

[darkones1fan]

I think this is a good division of blame. 50% Neal  30% Zelena 10% Cora and  10% Lumiere

[Felie]

Or… alternatively; 100% Cora, since… you know… Just because ;P

But seriously, if I were to allocate blame percentage – 95% Neal, .5% Zelena, 4.5% unknown forces ;P

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[darkones1fan]

Or… alternatively; 100% Cora, since… you know… Just because ;P But seriously, if I were to allocate blame percentage – 95% Neal, .5% Zelena, 4.5% unknown forces ;P

Interesting, interesting, I would replace the 4.5% unknown forces with Cora only because she messed up the Wicked Witch, although I wonder what percent of blame Rumple would get. (Most people would consider none) But WR and I were talking earlier and she had a good point to make of Neal’s death being Karma coming back to haunt Rumple.

[Grimmsister]

Neal was the one who decided to take the action which ultimately led to his death.

As I mentioned in a post above, had Neal and Belle not discovered Zelena’s plot then, and only then, would the blame lie in Zelena’s hands. ….
He was an adult who made a choice, despite Belle’s warnings and concerns, therefore he must bare the blame. Adults don’t get to make informed decisions and cast blame on someone else when it doesn’t work out. And by informed I mean he was informed by Lumiere that the whole thing was a set-up by the Wicked Witch, which should have been the only information he needed to make the right decision.

Can I chime in a bit here 🙂 interesting topic.

Yes it was Neals own choice when he discovered the truth. But Z will still bare the blame partly since it was her choice to manipulate Neal knowing what would happen to him.

Same as if someone puts a loaded gun in a suicidal persons hand and wait for the person to pull the trigger. Thats the persons own choice, but the gun wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the other guy.

[darkones1fan]

I guess it all depends on whether we put more stock on Neal’s actions or Zelena’s influence. Actions do speak louder then words but how much do words effect actions

[PriceofMagic]

I agree Grimm.

The only reason Belle and Neal found out about the plot was because Lumiere slipped up and Belle realised he was lying. Zelena INTENDED for Belle and Neal not to find out about her plot and to resurrect Rumple anyway.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[Felie]

Thanks for commenting XD

Can I chime in a bit here interesting topic. Yes it was Neals own choice when he discovered the truth. But Z will still bare the blame partly since it was her choice to manipulate Neal knowing what would happen to him. Same as if someone puts a loaded gun in a suicidal persons hand and wait for the person to pull the trigger. Thats the persons own choice, but the gun wouldnt be there if it wasnt for the other guy.

Your comparison is definitely a good one. I really did have to think long and hard about it.

A suicidal person knows that the gun will kill them (or seriously damage them) if they decide to go ahead with using it. And if they do decide to use the gun their only intention is to die. The one who gives a suicidal person a gun presumably has the intention of giving a suicidal person the means to take their own life. The reasons both participants have in giving the gun/wanting to take their own life could be varied. As you have stated, if the person then uses the gun to commit suicide then some of the blame could be said to lie with the gun-giver (though I’m not so sure the scenario is as simple as that).

Neal’s intention in using the key was to revive his dad and, up until he found out about the set-up, was blissfully unaware that using the key would do anything different. However, discovering the set-up made it clear that there could be some potential unwanted/unintentional (read; dangerous) consequences to using the key. Knowing that the Witch set everything up meant that she herself knew where everything was, bringing into question her need for Neal and/or Belle to turn the key for her. This should have alerted them to the possibility that there was danger in turning the key.
If the suicidal person uses the gun, he wants to die and knows he most likely will. When Neal used the key he didn’t know what was going to happen, his intentions were true, but his actions were reckless (he took a chance; it didn’t pay off). The gun-giver doesn’t know what the suicidal person will do, but thinks that he may use the gun to kill himself. Zelena attempted to trick Neal into sacrificing his life for Rumple’s, but was ultimately found out and her dark motives were discovered.  If she had not been discovered then she would have been mostly to blame.

I think a more accurate comparison would be; A person who is desperate to be reunited with a dead relative is given a gun by a friend who tells them it’s a magic gun that, upon pulling the trigger, will allow them to see the dead loved one again. They latter find out that their friend is actually working for their enemy, but decide to go ahead and pull the trigger anyway.

Anyway… I may have to revisit this post later, when I’ve had more time to think.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

I agree Grimm. The only reason Belle and Neal found out about the plot was because Lumiere slipped up and Belle realised he was lying. Zelena INTENDED for Belle and Neal not to find out about her plot and to resurrect Rumple anyway.

Zelena’s intentions became irrelevant upon Neal discovering them. In other words; Neal’s knowledge of Zelena’s intentions to use him to open the vault for her negated/neutralised those intentions. Everything that happened after the discovery of the set-up was the result of actions taken in light of an informed decision.

Knowledge – Neal knew of Zelena’s plans, plus her knowledge of the vault

Decision – Neal decided to go ahead with opening the vault regardless of the unknown dangers

Action – Neal opened the vault

Result – Neal’s life was exchanged for Rumple’s life

I’d just like to say that I don’t think the character deserved to die. Nor do I believe that Zelena is 100% off the hook; her intentions were indeed bad. She did lead him to the cliff, but it was still his choice to leap.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Keb]

Neal obviously did NOT consider that the price might be his life. He also firmly believed that his father was stronger than the witch and capable of remaining outside of her control. Yes, he dismissed the costs when he shouldn’t have, but he was still in partial ignorance when he used the key. That shifts more of the blame to Zelena in my opinion, and obviously Rumple agrees–because that is what he yells at her when she shows up. And she responds with “Oops,” in a clear admission that she is partially at fault.

I’d put it at 60% Zelena, 10% Lumiere, and 30% Neal. But on my spreadsheet you basically get chalked up 1 per death you’re involved in. Which is why right now I’ve got Rumple and Snow each taking a hit for Cora’s death (but not Regina–hmm, what was my thinking then? Actually, similar to now–she didn’t KNOW that’s what she was doing, just as Neal didn’t know he was killing himself).

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

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