Neal's death in not on Zelena's hands

[PriceofMagic]

Yeah we can blame Zelena for that.

[Jenna_B]

This is quite the debate! And I mean that in a good way. It doesn’t seem anyone who’s posted is incredibly hurt/offended/put off by others’ thoughts. And this is probably one of the most sensitive topics that has come up during the show.

I want to add my opinions but my son’s dinner is calling – so now I am going to mull all of these thoughts over and come back with something hopefully somewhat well stated!

[Felie]

But dont we blame her for her actions and the intentions behind them and not the outcome? The outcome will I believe always (or mostly) be the result of multiple peoples intentions and actions. And if so the blame will be the same regardless of what result come from “evil” intentions. This is a very philosophical discussion. I love those

I know.. that is what I mean. I dont blame Z for Neals death, but for her intention to use him as a Tool to ressurect Rumple which she knew would result in his death.

I love debates like this too!

Yes. As I’ve said before on this post, her actions and intentions were immoral, and only she can be held accountable for them. Also, had she not been discovered by Neal and Belle then she would have been mostly to blame for his death. However, if her actions and intentions did not ultimately lead to the his death, then she cannot be blamed, despite all of her intentions. What I mean by this is; as soon as Neal found out about her plot his intentions then became the catalyst which led to his death. His knowledge of the situation overruled her influence since, as soon as her plan came to light, she no longer had any influence (if this makes any sense). Everything that happened thereafter was down to Neal’s actions making the Witch’s intentions of little consequence.

She is guilty of being immoral and attempting to trick Neal into exchanging his life for that of his father’s, but at this point she cannot be accused of being a murderer, or even of manslaughter.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

This is quite the debate! And I mean that in a good way. It doesn’t seem anyone who’s posted is incredibly hurt/offended/put off by others’ thoughts. And this is probably one of the most sensitive topics that has come up during the show. I want to add my opinions but my son’s dinner is calling – so now I am going to mull all of these thoughts over and come back with something hopefully somewhat well stated!

Thanks for leaving a comment!

I honestly thought that this topic would lead to some backlash myself, but the posts so far have all been genuine and thoughtful, despite, as you say, the topic’s sensitive nature and rawness (Neal hasn’t even been buried yet!).  I look forward to your post!

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Grimmsister]

Felie wrote-

“Yes. As I’ve said before on this post, her actions and intentions were immoral, and only she can be held accountable for them. Also, had she not been discovered by Neal and Belle then she would have been mostly to blame for his death. However, if her actions and intentions did not ultimately lead to the his death, then she cannot be blamed, despite all of her intentions

What I mean by this is; as soon as Neal found out about her plot his intentions then became the catalyst which led to his death. His knowledge of the situation overruled her influence since, as soon as her plan came to light, she no longer had any influence (if this makes any sense). Everything that happened thereafter was down to Neal’s actions making the Witch’s intentions of little consequence.

She is guilty of being immoral and attempting to trick Neal into exchanging his life for that of his father’s, but at this point she cannot be accused of being a murderer, or even of manslaughter.”

Hmm I see what you mean. But from your last line that she cant be accused of murder or manslaughter Im thinking you mean by the court of law or what? Because that is a whole different topic to get into and one I must confess to not know much about. But I would like to think that in a real world court of law, She would still be held somewhat accountable for his death. Again using the gun in hand analogy. She gave him the means, something he could have figured out eventually by himself for sure. But she gave them to him non the less. Say Woman A gave Dude B a gun and told him how to use it on Dude C. Then Dude B went out and shot Dude C with it. Woman A would be held as an accomplice in the murder by the court.

But just morally speaking. Is she accountable for his death in some way? Yes IMO, and Im not saying she alone is. You say after Neal discoveres the truth, she no longer has inflouence. But she had HAD inflouence, she “planted the seed” in him or maybe just watered the seed that was already there, meaning her actions did make the ball roll in the way of Neals death. Had she not done this, something else would have happened in Neals story and who is to tell what that might have been, it could have been with the same outcome, but it could also have been an intirely different one. But as it was, Her actions played a part in what came to be. Neal is not alone responsible for his own death, Z holds responsibility. And so in a more round-about-way does Rumple and even Regina and Emma, though they had absolutely no chance of predicting what of their prior actions would result in Neals death eventually. But morally I wouldn’t say Emma or Regina could be held responsible, but Rumple could, maybe, to an extent.

[Felie]

But just morally speaking. Is she accountable for his death in some way? Yes IMO, and Im not saying she alone is. You say after Neal discoveres the truth, she no longer has inflouence. But she had HAD inflouence, she “planted the seed” in him or maybe just watered the seed that was already there, meaning her actions did make the ball roll in the way of Neals death. Had she not done this, something else would have happened in Neals story and who is to tell what that might have been, it could have been with the same outcome, but it could also have been an intirely different one. But as it was, Her actions played a part in what came to be. Neal is not alone responsible for his own death, Z holds responsibility. And so in a more round-about-way does Rumple and even Regina and Emma, though they had absolutely no chance of predicting what of their prior actions would result in Neals death eventually. But morally I wouldn’t say Emma or Regina could be held responsible, but Rumple could, maybe, to an extent.

I’d say she is responsible for the events which led up to his death, but not his death. I separate the events leading up to his death from his death into two different categories; 1)events preceding the discovery of the set-up, 2)events following the discovery of the set-up. That knowledge, to me, is the tipping point in this whole thing. If someone tells you to walk into a building that is on fire, and you know it’s on fire, unless you are a child or incapable of making rational, then you are the only person to blame if you get burned.

Let’s add a touch of ouat-ness back into the mix; Emma and Regina are told by Mr Smee that the magic book they’ve been looking for is on Capitan Hook’s ship. Just as  Emma is about to go onto the ship Mr Smee has a crisis of conscience and tells them that the book is on the ship, but that it’s all a trap set up by Pan, who is back from the dead and after Emma for her ‘chosen one’ powers. Who is to blame if Emma, despite this new development and all of Regina’s warnings, decides to board the ship anyway, and get herself captured?

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Author]

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