Oncers who don't ship……….

[Jenna_B]

We had a conversation in chat about a month or two ago, now. We were talking about ships and the various groups within the fandom. People had various opinions regarding what ship/faction is the largest and many seemed to base it on the amount of chatter generated online by each group. But I don’t think the amount of ‘noise’ a group makes means they represent a large group or a small group – they represent the loudest parts of each group only. And when the loudest start to become negative, it can really intimidate and sour others’ opinions and desire to contribute. I know the 2nd half of S3 really upset many fans, and others who weren’t as upset didn’t really know how to react or how to best acknowledge other members’ feelings here. But if in this one forum, we as members can try to keep a positive outlook in the general threads, and keep the venting and griping to their individual thread, it is possible for us to have the discussions and even debates many seem to want to have. I know toward the end of S3 we had a pretty good number of lurkers post and those of us more active on the thread really encouraged it — so I think sometimes it just takes members encouraging and being positive to get others to emerge and also share opinions in a positive way.

There have been a number of non-CS conversations in the CS thread that were excellent debates — and I couldn’t help thinking how great it would be to get the opinions of non-CSers as well…but that wasn’t going to happen if they aren’t in the thread to see the discussion in the first place. I think it’s just a matter of people actively promoting conversation outside of ‘ship context. It can be difficult, and I don’t think it needs to be purely the mods who encourage non-shipping conversations. But the more people just keep quiet, and don’t contribute, the easier it is for people who are going to talk to stay in their comfort zone.

RG – you made the new thread that points out some non-shipping threads – thank you! Maybe, though, it could be named something like character threads or non-shipping threads to really stand out to members so we know where to go to maybe reactivate the discussions in more appropriate places? (You know how we all love to ask the mods instead of look! Myself included! But maybe people would be drawn to them if it were clear as day? 🙂 )

[RumplesGirl]

RG – you made the new thread that points out some non-shipping threads – thank you! Maybe, though, it could be named something like character threads or non-shipping threads to really stand out to members so we know where to go to maybe reactivate the discussions in more appropriate places? (You know how we all love to ask the mods instead of look! Myself included! But maybe people would be drawn to them if it were clear as day? 🙂 )

fine

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[obisgirl]

We had a conversation in chat about a month or two ago, now. We were talking about ships and the various groups within the fandom. People had various opinions regarding what ship/faction is the largest and many seemed to base it on the amount of chatter generated online by each group. But I don’t think the amount of ‘noise’ a group makes means they represent a large group or a small group – they represent the loudest parts of each group only. And when the loudest start to become negative, it can really intimidate and sour others’ opinions and desire to contribute. I know the 2nd half of S3 really upset many fans, and others who weren’t as upset didn’t really know how to react or how to best acknowledge other members’ feelings here. But if in this one forum, we as members can try to keep a positive outlook in the general threads, and keep the venting and griping to their individual thread, it is possible for us to have the discussions and even debates many seem to want to have.

Testing for Daniel!

[Bo-Peeps]

In very non-specific (and long winded!) terms…

If someone is going to separate things by labels, then simply respect the “Internet rights” of freedom of expression of ALL the labelled parties  to post in their comfort zones and styles.

Anyone can go on any board and lurk/read the existing posts to see where they might best gel.

If you can sit down and watch the show on Sundays as a momentary escape and entertainment it doesn’t make any difference how you label yourself or how anyone else labels you. TV viewing is a one on one event.

However, The Internet obviously exists for communication. All kinds. If you can or need to find a dwelling place on the Internet where you find like minded people with whom to share your appreciation, that is icing on the cake.

Not everyone likes the same cake flavors and no one should aggressively  or belligerently tell them they should/shouldn’t ~but it happens and there is little you can do to stop them. You can always point blank ignore/block them at the very least if there is not an active, hands on moderating team. But moderators can’t be everywhere all the time. And they shouldn’t have to be forums “parents”, ever.

On most message boards, even ones with stringent guidelines, a poster can lurk around for a while and figure out who all posts where and what is the style of posting. Then join in or not.

When a thread clearly labels what goes on there and you enter it, talking and not just reading, you have made that choice and shouldn’t act surprised with whatever you experience.

If someone needs to express themselves differently or on a different level, one can find an existing thread or if one isn’t available, create one and enjoy the discourse

Shippers, non-shippers, antis, pros, whatever you classify yourself, or others, just post in whatever thread you chose with personal accountability and a semblance of common sense. There is space for all of it. 🙂

If you are the only one feeling or thinking a certain way, you will find out soon enough by a deafening silence or a torrent of opinion (grin)!

***Always in search of a good flock***

[Myril]

Maybe I better get me at least an umbrella now, just in case, if tomatoes and alike come flying my way 😉

@Jenna_B I’ve seen the topic you started, about bringing some of the probably interesting character aspects discussed into character discussion besides shipping. Not quite what I thought about though.

In my perception this forum is a shipping forum, and I am basing that not on what is going on in the shipper threads but already on what people bring up in episode discussions, spoilers, speculations. It is still one of the more civilized places where mainly shippers hang around, but like probably most of the fandom a lot of shipping is present.

I like the people here in this forum, so I still hang around as well, and there are a couple of interesting discussions even for me once in a while going on. But by now I discuss the show, characters, spoilers, speculations and other things mostly in another place. It is not just the shipping, it plays a part though, besides that I am never only a fan, but as well a social scientist with some interest in cultural studies and media. As fan I sure have my favorite characters – which have pretty much been reduced by now though to Red/Ruby, a character barely on the show anymore, and to a degree Emma, but as a single woman, none of the ships around for her I see as endgame and I don’t think her happiness is in finding her prince( my love for the show as a whole is gone). As more observer reviewer I see not even any favorite character as safe from anything though, not from death, not from unhappy ending. Yes, I am a person who can love a character and nevertheless kill her or him (I suffered with Willow about the loss of Tara, and at the same time found it was good story telling and something that pretty much had to happen)

I think there is more than a shipping rift in the fandom There are some really annoyed by now about, as they perceive it, the abundance of Regina stories and sudden, effortless redemption, there has been longer than probably any shipping war a constant squabble about who is the better mother, Regina or Emma, there are people now disliking, or as they say it, hating Emma as a character, either because she doesn’t give Hook the boot or treated him like a piece of wood, not to mention her high walls, her inconsideration of Henry and disregard of her loving parents, take your pick. And, I risk to mention it, views and opinions on Neal, his character as much as he is story was handled, are all over the place. We have discussions about all kind of isms and in very passionate ways. As a scientist I find it interesting how a trivial fantasy show about family and love mirrors some at the moment quite fundamental discussions concerning gender, gender roles, family, love, human relationships and morality. As a fan though I find it occasionally straining, because at the moment the best thing seems to be not to move at all, with any move one might put one’s foot into it. I like a good argument, not shy of conflict, but prefer it in a productive manner.

Character discussion can’t exclude discussing relationships the character has with other people, and that includes romantic relationship. Yes, we could try to avoid the hottest bricks, but in some cases there is not much left to discuss then. As I hinted, if talking about Emma I would question why there should have to be any happy big romance as endgame at all, why there has to be romance now, why women are so often in media and entertainment shown as predominantly defined by their relationships, while men are defined by their action, and if OUaT is (still) any different in that. I have some rather harsh views and opinions on any guy Emma had a relationship with so far, and about these relationship, and shippers might not like that. As I have some harsh views on the relationship of Emma’s parents to her though as well. Not much different my views about Regina and her character, relations and development.

But we can try it. Let’s see what happens.

Maybe some more non-shippers have the courage to out themselves? There will be a nice picnic in a week with devilish lasagne, outlandish New York style pizza, spicy apple cider, and later some steaming apple turnover and hot chocolate with cinnamon for dessert. Trying to hire for dinner music the colorful Fairy Choir featuring the singing half-brother of Robin Hood, known as Galavant, and the wolfpack promised a special serenade with surprise guest after moonrise.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[RumplesGirl]

Maybe some more non-shippers have the courage to out themselves? There will be a nice picnic in a week with devilish lasagne, outlandish New York style pizza, spicy apple cider, and later some steaming apple turnover and hot chocolate with cinnamon for dessert. Trying to hire for dinner music the colorful Fairy Choir featuring the singing half-brother of Robin Hood, known as Galavant, and the wolfpack promised a special serenade with surprise guest after moonrise.

I don’t understand why being a shipper disqualifies me from partaking in character discussion and the like. I am active in almost every single thread on this forum, and not just because I’m keymaster. It’s like saying that I am incapable of conversing with the rest of the fandom without it devolving into ship talk and worse still, it devolving into negative conversation as if any criticisms I have simply stem from “angry shipper”

I–and many others–are more than capable of having rational conversations about character, plot, ect without resorting to the shippyness of it all–and by that I mean trying to sell your ship and your ship’s beliefs to someone who does not buy into them, either because they are on the opposite side of the debate or because they simply don’t care/don’t ship.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Bo-Peeps]

It absolutely does NOT disqualify you, Rumplesgirl, or me, or anyone who participates in this forum who also happens to post in anything labeled as a shipping thread, blatantly or otherwise.

Any suggestions otherwise are erroneous… at best.

 

 

***Always in search of a good flock***

[Jenna_B]

I don’t understand why being a shipper disqualifies me from partaking in character discussion and the like. I am active in almost every single thread on this forum, and not just because I’m keymaster. It’s like saying that I am incapable of conversing with the rest of the fandom without it devolving into ship talk and worse still, it devolving into negative conversation as if any criticisms I have simply stem from “angry shipper”…I–and many others–are more than capable of having rational conversations about character, plot, ect without resorting to the shippyness of it all–and by that I mean trying to sell your ship and your ship’s beliefs to someone who does not buy into them, either because they are on the opposite side of the debate or because they simply don’t care/don’t ship.

And I think that’s exactly it, RG.  It’s a relatively small forum; most people that either post or just read can gather fairly quickly who likes what ship, isn’t a shipper, etc.  The problem is that people then quickly put that person into a ‘shipper category, when really, there are few seriously hardcore-incapable-of-having-nonshipping-conversations/arguments.  Sure, you can include me as a CSer, but certainly don’t label me as such and write me off as incapable of non-CS conversation, or even of  not being able to understand the merits of SF/SQ, because I do believe they all have merit.  And some of my favorite people to discuss/debate with – RG, MP, Jo, Ranisha for very quick example – are not members of “my ‘ship,” but I have wonderful and thought provoking conversations with them!

 

So let’s just be the group of people to start encouraging more non-ship conversation!  Somebody’s gotta do it!  Ok, now I’m turning into a cheerleader and kind of annoying myself.  🙂

[obisgirl]

In very non-specific (and long winded!) terms… If someone is going to separate things by labels, then simply respect the “Internet rights” of freedom of expression of ALL the labelled parties to post in their comfort zones and styles. Anyone can go on any board and lurk/read the existing posts to see where they might best gel. If you can sit down and watch the show on Sundays as a momentary escape and entertainment it doesn’t make any difference how you label yourself or how anyone else labels you. TV viewing is a one on one event. However, The Internet obviously exists for communication. All kinds. If you can or need to find a dwelling place on the Internet where you find like minded people with whom to share your appreciation, that is icing on the cake. Not everyone likes the same cake flavors and no one should aggressively or belligerently tell them they should/shouldn’t ~but it happens and there is little you can do to stop them. You can always point blank ignore/block them at the very least if there is not an active, hands on moderating team. But moderators can’t be everywhere all the time. And they shouldn’t have to be forums “parents”, ever. On most message boards, even ones with stringent guidelines, a poster can lurk around for a while and figure out who all posts where and what is the style of posting. Then join in or not. When a thread clearly labels what goes on there and you enter it, talking and not just reading, you have made that choice and shouldn’t act surprised with whatever you experience. If someone needs to express themselves differently or on a different level, one can find an existing thread or if one isn’t available, create one and enjoy the discourse Shippers, non-shippers, antis, pros, whatever you classify yourself, or others, just post in whatever thread you chose with personal accountability and a semblance of common sense. There is space for all of it. If you are the only one feeling or thinking a certain way, you will find out soon enough by a deafening silence or a torrent of opinion (grin)!

I strongly agree with all of this. At the end of the day, we’re all fans of this show regardless what we ‘ship. And I’ve rarely seen anyone say you’re not being a fan because of this or that.

I understand ‘shipping isn’t for everyone and actually, sometimes I envy the small lot of you because you guys enjoy the show no matter where the story goes. Like I wish some Oncers would realize there’s more to OUAT than ‘ships. There’s the overall story too which often gets hazy once ‘shipping gets involved. There are some really nice people in the fandom and there’s the jerks no wants to see. And it’s often the bad cookies who ruin it for everyone else.

[Phee]

I get the impression that shippers are more interested in the destination than the journey.

I think some are, but I think they’re the minority.

Some people would probably look at me and think that I’m so passionate about SF because I just straight up believed they were endgame and now I’m pissed, but that’s not the case. I started shipping SF because of potential I saw in Emma and Neal individually, and having evaluated their journeys thus far, I decided I loved their story together, as well as appreciating them as individuals. If they’d kept Neal alive and had them not end up together, as long as they’d developed each character in a believable way in their own right, it wouldn’t have broken me that they didn’t end up as endgame. I’ve been rather ranty recently on the topic of SF, but the sinking of that ship is just one part of how I believe the writers have made both Emma and Neal OOC as individuals, and that’s what pisses me off the most, because at the end of the day, I just want consistent and believable characters and story across the board.

I didn’t ship Frankenwolf until they had their monster to monster conversation on the dock, and it hit me that those two have that commonality to bond over. Now I can look back at previous scenes they’ve had and it makes me wanna ship them more and think they’d be a perfect endgame, but it was that emotional connection that stems from their individual life experiences that first made me think that their story together would be a beautiful thing with lots of potential. Seeing them continue to grow as individuals would have led to them growing closer to each other, which would have resulted in a believable and strong relationship.

I crackshipped Hookriel hardcore because I’d dreamed up lots of story potential for it, lots of fun “journey” potential for them both, that just so happened to involve a relationship between them.

Romantic relationships are a part of any character’s “journey”, so I don’t think that aspect of the story can be ignored completely. If you’re discussing how a character evolves emotionally, that’s inevitably gonna include the emotional connections they have with others, and in most cases that’s gonna involve romantic relationships as well. But that doesn’t mean that the ship aspect of any character’s journey is their be all end all.

Rightly or wrongly, I do read other people’s posts with their bias in the back of my mind. If I know someone is ship-neutral, I’m less likely to feel defensive if they say something detrimental about my ship/fave character, because I know they’re not being influenced emotionally either way, they’re being more objective. But if I see someone with a known bias saying something, I will naturally assume that their bias is influencing their opinion and it’ll get under my skin more. And rightly or wrongly, I naturally assume that others feel the same about my posts too.

[Author]

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