OUAT and portraying mental health issues

[Felie]

As someone who knows a few things about mental health issues (personal experience, as well as having studied some psychology + sociology) I am a bit concerned about the way Once has been portraying people with obvious mental heal issues in the last two seasons.

Both Zelena and Ingrid have been portrayed as showing signs of suffering with mental health issues (troubled pasts leading to obsessiveness, loss and isolation turning their minds dark, etc.), and both are expected to be viewed as evil, to be written-off and defeated, instead of being given the help that they need. Neither of these women ‘turned to the dark side’, but have clearly been disturbed by the (legitimately) awful things they have experienced, and I’m getting a little tired at them vilifying people with mental health issues; a demographic who are more likely to be the victims of violence, as opposed to the perpetrators.

Rumple, Cora, and Pan were good villains motivated by desires which came from internal struggles – someone weak coveting power – someone poor and powerless coveting wealth and power – someone aging and trapped coveting youth and freedom. However, Zelena was mentally unhinged and coveted a re-written past in order to experience the life she felt she deserved. Ingrid was isolated, accidentally killed her beloved sister, was betrayed by her other beloved sister, and lived in solitary confinement for 30 years with nothing to do but dwell on all this pain and to suffer, and all she seeks is to reconnect to a time in her life where she felt love and support despite the fact that she was a ‘monster’ in her own eyes. Are we expected to root for her downfall? Because all I see is a desperate character who needs to be helped as well as stopped, but I fear the writers won’t let her live to receive the help she needs.

This, imo, is an extremely negative portrayal of people who suffer from mental health issues, and sends the wrong message about how they should be viewed, as all I see is the other characters dismissing their painful pasts in favor of vilifying them. I guess I just wanted to reach out and see if anyone else feels the same? Or do you think I’m over reacting?

[RumplesGirl]

This is a really good post, Felie.

I don’t think you’re out of line or over reacting at all. The biggest complaint I remember about Zelena and her plot line was that she was “loony” in her portrayal. She went from cold and menacing (312-313) to just batty overnight starting in about 316. And then she just got progressively worse in her depictition of someone who clearly needed help. And then Rumple just up and killed her…

I don’t think the writers are doing it deliberately, but that’s maybe the biggest problem. They don’t see how their writing is coming across when it comes to these sensitive issues. For instance, they didn’t sit down and say, “we are going to make Zelena unhinged and then kill her to make a point.” They just straight up don’t realize how their writing isn’t jiving with mental illness, casting these villains as crazed and evil and without salvation.

I remember back in episode 304, Rumple talked about his nasty habit of self preservation and several suicide help group nailed Adam to the wall on Twitter because they thought that ONCE was giving a negative view on staying alive and a rather glamorous view of suicide.

It would be nice for the writers to talk about this, but we know it won’t happen. They simply don’t see that their writing is problematic with some issues.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[WickedRegal]

One thing about Adam and Eddy….they create characters you sympathize with, but then they do things to purposefully get the audience to hate their guts just so they won’t be missed in the end, and that really really really irks me! That’s why a lot of Neal Fans despise Zelena because they feel she’s responsible for his death….me, as a hardcore Neal fan, I can’t give 100% of his death to Zelena…I can only pass the “she loaded the gun” judgment. I wanted to Zelena to live, and build the sisterhood she was supposed to have with Regina, which this Frozen Arc could have done for her….

Zelena suffered from many abandonment issues, and if you watch her first reaction to learning Regina was her sister, you can see that she’s slightly shocked but a little happy, but then that quickly turned to envy. Seeing her sister have everything she was supposed to have really stirred the pot of envy, and I always wonder what would’ve happened had the two of them met in the past on good terms. Could having a sister maybe save Zelena, I think yes…they both were two women who were in near impossible situations, who were also alone…having each other in their lives could have changed the course of history.

Ingrid on the other hand…I think there’s hope for her! A lot of it…she hasn’t really done anything to warrant death by anyone in Storybrooke…..she was honestly trying to save and protect Emma. And I do believe she suffers from a mental disorder, being locked in an urn for 30 years with nothing but the memories of being called a monster by one sister, and accidently killing the other will more than likely have that effect on you, so I think she should still have a chance to gain her happy ending. And if a HEA while alive isn’t in the cards for her….then I hope dying to protect Emma and Elsa is the next best thing.

"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor

[Felie]

This is a really good post, Felie.

I don’t think you’re out of line or over reacting at all. The biggest complaint I remember about Zelena and her plot line was that she was “loony” in her portrayal. She went from cold and menacing (312-313) to just batty overnight starting in about 316. And then she just got progressively worse in her depictition of someone who clearly needed help. And then Rumple just up and killed her…

I don’t think the writers are doing it deliberately, but that’s maybe the biggest problem. They don’t see how their writing is coming across when it comes to these sensitive issues. For instance, they didn’t sit down and say, “we are going to make Zelena unhinged and then kill her to make a point.” They just straight up don’t realize how their writing isn’t jiving with mental illness, casting these villains as crazed and evil and without salvation.

I remember back in episode 304, Rumple talked about his nasty habit of self preservation and several suicide help group nailed Adam to the wall on Twitter because they thought that ONCE was giving a negative view on staying alive and a rather glamorous view of suicide.

It would be nice for the writers to talk about this, but we know it won’t happen. They simply don’t see that their writing is problematic with some issues.

Thanks! I’m glad I’m not the only one who sees it this way.

I don’t think they’re doing it deliberately either, but as you quite rightly pointed out, that almost makes it worse, in a way. They are showing an astounding lack of empathy for their own characters, and for anyone irl who may have suffered in similar circumstances.

The bolded comment makes me sad, as the equating of ‘craziness’ with ‘evilness’ and ‘without salvation’ is how a lot of mental health sufferers end up in the hospital (or worse!) at the hands of those who fear them, and you’re right to point out that this is almost exactly how they have written Zelina and Ingrid’s arcs.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

One thing about Adam and Eddy….they create characters you sympathize with, but then they do things to purposefully get the audience to hate their guts just so they won’t be missed in the end, and that really really really irks me! That’s why a lot of Neal Fans despise Zelena because they feel she’s responsible for his death….me, as a hardcore Neal fan, I can’t give 100% of his death to Zelena…I can only pass the “she loaded the gun” judgment. I wanted to Zelena to live, and build the sisterhood she was supposed to have with Regina, which this Frozen Arc could have done for her….

Zelena suffered from many abandonment issues, and if you watch her first reaction to learning Regina was her sister, you can see that she’s slightly shocked but a little happy, but then that quickly turned to envy. Seeing her sister have everything she was supposed to have really stirred the pot of envy, and I always wonder what would’ve happened had the two of them met in the past on good terms. Could having a sister maybe save Zelena, I think yes…they both were two women who were in near impossible situations, who were also alone…having each other in their lives could have changed the course of history.

Ingrid on the other hand…I think there’s hope for her! A lot of it…she hasn’t really done anything to warrant death by anyone in Storybrooke…..she was honestly trying to save and protect Emma. And I do believe she suffers from a mental disorder, being locked in an urn for 30 years with nothing but the memories of being called a monster by one sister, and accidently killing the other will more than likely have that effect on you, so I think she should still have a chance to gain her happy ending. And if a HEA while alive isn’t in the cards for her….then I hope dying to protect Emma and Elsa is the next best thing.

I saw that (bolded) on this site, and was quite shocked at how easily everyone turned on Zelena. It’s almost like the writers just say ‘she’s the bad-guy because we say so, hate her now’, and everyone does??? People were saying she deserved to die, that she asked for it etc.. Even die-hard Rumple fans (which blew my mind to Mars!!!)! But I could never bring myself to do anything but pity her, since she was obviously desperate and unhinged.

As far as Ingrid is concerned? I hope you’re right and both her and Elsa return to Arendelle together to fix things, but something tells me it won’t end too happily for Ingrid.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[obisgirl]

This is a very interesting topic. I studied psychology in community college and even before that, I’ve always been fascinated why certain characters lean towards good or bad and what makes them that way.

But since we’re talking about a show that has fairytale characters, in Enchanted Forest, I don’t think there was a place where characters who had problems could go to and talk about their issues. Everyone always seems to want a magical solution for everything instead of working on their problems and finding a better solution.

Clearly Rumple is unhinged this season.

I don’t think anyone questions that and so is Ingrid, the problem is that these characters, instead of seeking out help, they choose to cope with their problems on their own. Sadly, there’s still a stigma todays when it comes to mental illness that sometimes, people are just afraid to ask for help from other people. So in that way, I don’t think the portrayal is inaccurate.

[killianhookfan]

Interesting topic AND interesting because while we were watching last night my husband at one point said “She’s just like seriously disturbed” about Dairy Queen, and later I said “It’s like she became psychotic out of desperation to get her sisters back and she’s so creepy about it.”

I really like the way EM has played her because, unlike Zelena where I felt like she was just WAY over the top a lot of the time, Dairy Queen seems like a very normal person a lot of the time and then when her “evilness” comes out it is more understated combined with a desperation.  I actually think they have done a pretty good job of showing that Dairy Queen is the way she is BECAUSE of everything that happened to her and that she was so messed up that she wasn’t really capable of making healthy decisions and she had NO ONE to love her or help her so she became even more messed up.  Of all the characters I think they are showing that she truly is more mentally unstable as opposed to a “villain.”

At the same time I think you could argue that ALL of the characters on the show who fall under the villain category are suffering from SOME form of mental illness whether it is depression, post traumatic stress disorder, full blown psychosis, or dozens of others.  And even if someone is suffering from a mental illness it doesn’t excuse behavior that harms another person.  So really, it would be hard for them to portray ANY of the villains without in some way also portraying various mental illnesses.  But I think that is where OUaT is unique in it’s portrayal of fairy tale characters.  There really aren’t any strictly good or evil characters on the show in the traditional sense.  Because we get to see the characters’ backgrounds and beginnings we are relating to them as “people” not fairy tale characters and we are then getting to understand WHY each of these people have made the choices they have made – which IS essentially showing us the state of mental health of each of the characters.  So we are being shown what can happen to someone if they are isolated from thear family, abandoned by their parents, orphaned as a child, lose people they love, regret decisions they have made, addicted to power, overcome with jealously, consumed with vengeance, etc.  We see what happens when people are faced with two decisions and they make a bad one – how it can hurt themselves and other, or if they make a good one how it can change their life for the better.

So I guess it all depends on how you look at the show.  If you just look write off all the villains as “crazy” then I think people are probably missing the point.

[Felie]

This is a very interesting topic. I studied psychology in community college and even before that, I’ve always been fascinated why certain characters lean towards good or bad and what makes them that way.

But since we’re talking about a show that has fairytale characters, in Enchanted Forest, I don’t think there was a place where characters who had problems could go to and talk about their issues. Everyone always seems to want a magical solution for everything instead of working on their problems and finding a better solution.

Clearly Rumple is unhinged this season.

I don’t think anyone questions that and so is Ingrid, the problem is that these characters, instead of seeking out help, they choose to cope with their problems on their own. Sadly, there’s still a stigma todays when it comes to mental illness that sometimes, people are just afraid to ask for help from other people. So in that way, I don’t think the portrayal is inaccurate.

My problem with this isn’t so much how accurate/inaccurate the portrayal of mental illness is in OUAT, rather the writer’s callousness and dismissiveness of the subject in general, albeit unintentional (I hope!). It’s not like they’re using mental health in order to legitimately address it, and tbh I’m really not interested in them addressing mental health issues in OUAT, I just wish they’d stop using it as a trope when writing their villains, eg. using it as a way to ‘justify’ why the villains doing bad things, and to justify the heroes taking them down.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Felie]

At the same time I think you could argue that ALL of the characters on the show who fall under the villain category are suffering from SOME form of mental illness whether it is depression, post traumatic stress disorder, full blown psychosis, or dozens of others.

This is a good point. However, Zelena and Ingrid have been shown/portrayed to actually have some sort of mental issues, i.e. their ‘craziness’ is a part of their character as well as it contributing to their motivations as villains, and has also been used as a reason to ‘take them down’.

And even if someone is suffering from a mental illness it doesn’t excuse behavior that harms another person.

An ironic quote I think may be relevant here; ‘having a mental illness is no excuse to act like you have a mental illness’

I agree with you as far as it shouldn’t allow them to get away with hurting other people – Zelena needed to be stopped and the DQ needs to be stopped. However, what the writers did was give them legitimate (in Ingrid’s case at least) reasons to be mentally unhinged and then, rather than stopping them and allowing them to work out their problems, have had the other characters label them as ‘crazy’ and put a bounty on their heads. Which to me seems really callous. Why not just make them evil for the sake of it if you want the viewers to see them as such before killing them?

So really, it would be hard for them to portray ANY of the villains without in some way also portraying various mental illnesses.

I disagree. Many interesting villains have been portrayed without invoking mental illness, including Pan in OUAT.

But I think that is where OUaT is unique in it’s portrayal of fairy tale characters. There really aren’t any strictly good or evil characters on the show in the traditional sense. Because we get to see the characters’ backgrounds and beginnings we are relating to them as “people” not fairy tale characters and we are then getting to understand WHY each of these people have made the choices they have made – which IS essentially showing us the state of mental health of each of the characters. So we are being shown what can happen to someone if they are isolated from thear family, abandoned by their parents, orphaned as a child, lose people they love, regret decisions they have made, addicted to power, overcome with jealously, consumed with vengeance, etc. We see what happens when people are faced with two decisions and they make a bad one – how it can hurt themselves and other, or if they make a good one how it can change their life for the better.

I hate to say it but there are many shows which do this better, including some children’s shows I’ve seen in the past. OUAT really isn’t unique in the way it gives most characters (good, bad, and neutral) decent back-stories.

So I guess it all depends on how you look at the show. If you just look write off all the villains as “crazy” then I think people are probably missing the point.

But it’s not the viewers dissmissiveness I’m commenting on here, its the writers’.

"so there’s this new show….."
"there’s lesbians in it"

[Gaultheria]

Are we expected to root for [Ingrid’s] downfall? Because all I see is a desperate character who needs to be helped as well as stopped, but I fear the writers won’t let her live to receive the help she needs.

Ingrid needs to be helped as well as stopped, but the town of several tens of thousands just needs for Ingrid to be stopped. Sensitivity isn’t a priority to the victims and their protectors when a mad(wo)man is holding a gun and is using it.

Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher

[Author]

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