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It’s still a good discussion to have. When we recognize and talk about the portrayals and world views in the media we consume, we not only raise our own (and fellow fans’) awareness, but we build the platform for future discussions and improvements.
I don’t expect A&E to spend time actually dealing with the most problematic stuff in their show when they could be pulling new shinies out of the toybox instead–but they have been forced here and there to acknowledge some of the issues, and the discussion is still a positive thing.
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I don’t expect A&E to spend time actually dealing with the most problematic stuff in their show when they could be pulling new shinies out of the toybox instead
I’m not even sure A and E realize that there ARE problematic issues in their show. The class issue @Nevermore raises is a good stepping off point. For A and E, having large swaths of their villains come from the lower class is just their pattern. I don’t honestly think A and E are trying to say something about up and comers but A and E write in terms of checklists.
–lower class? check
–orphan/missing one parent? check
–trouble with love in the past? check
In order to be a villain you have to met a minimum of two of those. If you don’t then A and E will add some “twist” to ensure that you do.
And that might be the larger issue, at least for me….not what the show is saying but how the show runners do not recognize that their show is saying these things.
(same applies to non heterosexual love stories, rape, misogyny, and rape culture)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"In order to be a villain you have to met a minimum of two of those. If you don’t then A and E will add some “twist” to ensure that you do.
There are a couple of exceptions. Ursula was depicted as the daughter of the sea king who became a “villain” after she lost her voice, rather than a love interest or family member. She also had her father, who though strict, loved her. Cruella was born to life of privilege and parents two parents who provided for her. Then she killed one of them because she was a psychopath. Also, King George was pretty bad, perhaps even before he lost his adoptive son, Prince James, who didn’t even know about his humble beginnings as David’s twin brother. That lot seemed to be pretty bad.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
I feel like Ursula and Cruella were the exceptions to the list above
True, which is what made Cruella a bit more interesting (imo) than the others we’ve seen in the past. She was just missing a parent, but that was actually through her own machinations.
Ursula….well, she was missing a parent so that’s one checkmark but she was such a filler/useless character and NON villain that you can make the case that she shouldn’t even be in the villain conversation. At the very least, not alongside the others.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"In general, however, I agree with the point that @Aglepta made. These are fairytales set in a feudal society. So there was always bound to be class struggle. It’s only in the modern, industrialized parts of the world today that there even is such a thing as a middle class or a meritocracy. Back then, it was all about nobility and honors bestowed upon one either through conquest or through birth/marriage.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
In general, however, I agree with the point that @Keb made. These are fairytales set in a feudal society. So there is always going to be class struggle. It’s only in the modern, industrialized parts of the world today that there even is a middle class or a meritocracy. Back then, it was all about nobility and honors bestowed upon one either through conquest or through birth/marriage.
True but the show isn’t depicting a class struggle, or at least it’s not a central theme that the writers are consciously writing. They are depicting lower class people trying to rise above and, in a majority of cases, becoming villains. Is there a character who managed to enter the upper echelon of their own accord and not become a villain in the process? That’s the litmus test. Charming married in/was forced in because of his brother but it had nothing to do with his own hard work to make a “better” life for himself. Maybe Ruby or the dwarves or Gepetto but that has a lot to do with befriending the right people.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"They are depicting lower class people trying to rise above and, in a majority of cases, becoming villains. Is there a character who managed to enter the upper echelon of their own accord and not become a villain in the process?
Emma Swan (before she became the dark one). She was voted in as town sheriff. But, that actually supports the point I was trying to make. Modern, industrialized and democratic countries like the USA allow people to be voted into office based on their own merit. But, generally speaking, in feudal society, you were pretty much screwed unless you were born to privilege or married up. It’s just the way it was. It may not have been fair, but that was the system. Sucked to be a peasant.
That’s the litmus test. Charming married in/was forced in because of his brother but it had nothing to do with his own hard work to make a “better” life for himself. Maybe Ruby or the dwarves or Gepetto but that has a lot to do with befriending the right people.
Yep. It was all about who you knew back in medieval times.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
Sucked to be a peasant.
Yes I know. That’s why I didn’t include Emma. She’s not a product of that society. She doesn’t count.
Yep. It was all about who you knew back in medieval times.
Yes and that was my point. OUAT doesn’t show any one being able to rise above of their own accord and not become a villain You either know people or you go dark.
It was only in the Night’s Watch that a bastard like Jon Snow could hope to become Lord Commander based on his own merit without having to resort to dirty tactics
Well….Samwell does act as a go-between and lies to both Pyke and Mallister and gets everyone’s assurances to vote for Jon, otherwise Mr. Snow wouldn’t have gotten very far. Point is, machinations happen everywhere.
OUAT, though, has a pattern. Villain? For the most part, you need to be poor first.
PS: add Jafar to the list; he fits the checklist.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"There are a couple of exceptions. Ursula was depicted as the daughter of the sea king who became a “villain” after she lost her voice, rather than a love interest or family member. She also had her father, who though strict, loved her. Cruella was born to life of privilege and parents two parents who provided for her. Then she killed one of them because she was a psychopath. Also, King George was pretty bad, perhaps even before he lost his adoptive son, Prince James, who didn’t even know about his humble beginnings as David’s twin brother. That lot seemed to be pretty bad.
So on the topic of King George this is admittedly a bit of a stretch but if you recall, his kingdom was threatened with poverty. Hence his little arrangement with Midas, the whole Charming subterfuge, and the rest as they say is history.
True but the show isn’t depicting a class struggle, or at least it’s not a central theme that the writers are consciously writing. They are depicting lower class people trying to rise above and, in a majority of cases, becoming villains. Is there a character who managed to enter the upper echelon of their own accord and not become a villain in the process? That’s the litmus test.
Right, that’s exactly the problem. I agree with @RG — the kicker isn’t necessarily that OUAT has a class issue. It’s that it’s not aware that it has a class issue (or a gender issue, or a race issue and on we go), and THAT is the thing that unites all the different critiques I’ve seen articulated in the fandom, and notably on these forums. Portrayal of class stratification isn’t the same as the naturalization of class stratification. For example, if I’m reading A. Dumas, I’m not going to expect a commentary on class consciousness. But if I’m reading contemporary fantasy, I’m likely to look for that in-between the lines metacommentary on the type of society it describes.
In part, that’s because we are all operating within a particular cultural and historical paradigm. Even if you’ve never read Marx, you have a sense of the arguments because you might have read Ursula Le Guin’s The Dispossessed. Not the best example maybe, but the point is, none of these people are writing or creating shows in a vacuum. Therefore I think there ought to be some self-awareness. The same way that it’s pretty outrageous that they have dismissed issues of consent in the era of Title IX policies and public outcry over rampant sexual harassment on college campuses. Just sayin’
Yes and that was my point. OUAT doesn’t show any one being able to rise above of their own accord and not become a villain You either know people or you go dark.
Actually, I just thought of several good exceptions.
Mulan is the first exception; she earned her heroine status though being an awesome warrior. We know she values honor, sacrifice and ethics. She’s a protector of her people.
Also, if we’re allowed to expand beyond just OUAT, the Wonderland daughter show had plenty of great examples. Will Scarlett, despite being a thief, was actually a good man. Anastasia, despite being poor and turning into the Red Queen for a time, actually found redemption and became a good ruler in her own right. Together, she and Will ruled Wonderland as the benevolent White King and Queen (you know, until A&E decided to muck about add Will to S4, thus leaving that happy ending in doubt). Also, Cyrus and Alice. Niether were royalty but were the main heroes of the tale.
"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy
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