Parallels

[Slurpeez]

I’ll just refer back to the themes of this season that A&E touched on belief and true self.  What Neal’s actions reveal is how far he has to go with his father.  I would recommend for those who haven’t read it mythologist Joseph Campbell’s Hero with a Thousand Faces. In it one of the key steps on any heroic journey is atonement with the father, which can refer to the reconnection with one’s own father after a youthful rebellion against him or a reconnection with the broader human family.  Knowing the risk and taking a leap of faith is what is required of true heroes, failure to do so would’ve meant that for example that the trigger would’ve have destroyed Storybrooke and using that bean would leave David, Snow Emma and Henry with a life built on blood and selfishness.

First, Bae has never actively rebelled against his father. When he first followed the Pied Piper, he was lured by the pipe’s enchantment and would have returned home if Rumple had trusted his son. When Bae left home for good he was trying to save his father from the Dark One curse, and then Neal is the one who was abandoned by his father! Neal has already paid the price for his father’s obsession with power. That’s a big difference between that book you cited and the story A&E are telling. I agree that Neal and Rumple need to reconcile, but Rumple needs to show his son, not just tell him, that he’s changed for the better.

Neal to my mind desperately wants a second chance with his Papa but abandoning him the way he was abandoned, and the way he abandoned Emma that is Neal’s nasty habit that he picked up from his Papa and has yet to shake. When he does he’ll be ready to get his Papa back but not before.

Neal wants to reconcile with his papa (e.g. see “The Miller’s Daughter” if you doubt). I believe Neal would’ve given his papa a second chance had Peter Pan not revealed the prophesy and Rumple’s dilemma. Yet, Neal can’t just think of his love for his father which is buried under layers of hurt. Neal must put his son’s safety first, as any responsible father would. As long as Rumple is dismissing vision Belle, thereby drowning out his own conscience, Rumple does in fact pose a threat to Henry! Neal is making the rational decision not to risk Henry’s life. It is up to Rumple, not Neal, to try and rebuild that trust with Neal, since Rumple is the one who dashed Neal’s faith in him in the first place. It’s not enough for Rumple simply to say he would’ve died to save Henry, just like it’s not enough for an alcoholic to say he’s giving up drinking. An alcoholic must actually give up drinking to show he’s reformed just as Rumple must actually sacrifice himself for Henry to show  that he truly has changed.

storyteller wrote: I frankly would love to have a scene where Neal is imprisoned and his father is the only one to let him out and Rumple willingly abandons him not in fear as he did before but in ire after reciting at length the deals he had to make, the lives ruined etc.

That would be very poetic. I would really love for Neal and Rumple to fix their damaged relationship because they were obviously very close once upon a time, but that’s a difficult thing to do when Neal is constantly putting down his own father and won’t even accept that he is willing to change.

It’s quite disturbing to read that Neal should be the one to atone for not trusting his dad when Rumple is the one who 1) broke his deal with Neal by letting him go as a child 2) sacrificed one world for the next just to be with him again and 3) tried to murder is own grandson all for the sake of some prophesy which PP is obviously manipulating to his own advantage. To me, that is tantamount  to saying a woman is guilty for not trusting her rapist! I use that hyperbole to illustrate a point that it’s wrong to blame a victim for being mistrustful of someone who has a proven track-record of harming others in favor of himself.

[storyteller]

Again all I can do is refer you back to the fact that Neal is just as much a lost little boy as his father. Symbol and myth govern my particular interpretation of the story.  I’ve seen nothing inconsistent with the Campbellian model, atonement (which literally means “at one ment” being at the same place spiritually, mentally etc. as another ex. Christians in compassion with Christ come to atonement with him on the cross and recognize his suffering in theirs)  with the father does not solely mean “I’m a an angry teenager and Dad won’t give me the car keys.” (if you have not read Campbell, heard his lectures or seen his interviews then it’s very difficult to restate what he does so well) Neal is angry at his father for abandoning him while at the same time he loves his Papa and in his heart of hearts is wishing and hoping for to have him.  This bifurcation leads Neal to fall into the same trap as his father namely  abandoning the one you love and then taking the cowards way out which in Neal’s case meant running away which is what he’s done his whole life, rather than go after Emma and openly confront his father.  Now he’s on the road back and that as we’ve seen in season two with Rumple and Regina is a perilous road.

Now why can’t Neal just think of love for his Papa if love is the most powerful magic and can overcome anything as Daniel told Regina. If Neal’s belief in love was strong enough he would’ve have believed his father when his father could present no evidence to the contrary and they would’ve have succeeded in rescuing Henry and the next stage of the journey would involve Neal protecting Henry from his father while at the same time learning the meaning of  the  “undoing” which I doubt involves Henry killing Rumple. I am not letting Rumple off the hook he has his own nasty habits to break but without Belle’s physical presence, the prophecy nagging at him and the fact that Neverland forces one to face the past he will be in a very dark place now.

 

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[obisgirl]

I am done with this thread.  I feel really outnumbered here and it’s sad.  It’s like some of you all forgot why Rumple created the Dark Curse to begin with.  Like the reason Rumple chose to put the prophecy aside in the finale and help with the search for Henry in Neverland was to honor Neal.

Most of what I’m seeing is all about Neal’s pain and such, and what about Rumple’s pain? Where’s the sympathy there? He is trying really hard to do what’s right and all Neal can see his dad when he was fourteen.  That’s the tragic thing here.  Rumple is more than willing to make amends here and Neal can’t even make the first step! That’s all I’m saying.

Where is RumplesGirl when I need her?

[kfchimera]

Slurpeez, I agree with a lot of that, but it makes me uncomfortable to make quite so strong an analogy here.
I think a lot of people do not realize just how victimized Neal has been, because they are so stuck on how he left Emma. Of course the writers created a lot of ambiguity in how they wrote Neal leaving Emma, because they wanted it to be consistent with their premise that Emma arrives unloved, alone, walls-up in SB. They tried to give him a justified reason with the whole “in the way of the curse” storyline, but the way it was presented left a lot of room for interpretation. Magic itself defies logic so I get why people are confused.

What does make me raise my eyebrows a little here is this logic: Neal just doesn’t appreciate Rumple, doesn’t he realize how many people Rumple hurt for him!?

Say what again? Shouldn’t that be a reason to be UPSET with Rumple, to realize that despite pleading not to crush this guy, or turn that one into a snail, or that one into a Rose (ok, after he left but still Rumple did it), that these are NOT acceptable ways to show your love?

http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/59639330618/a-creative-spark-set-afire-acceptable-ways-to

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[kfchimera]

Obisgirl, the problem is, you’re missing that NEAL DOES SEE HIS FATHER’S PAIN. He has met him halfway. He came to SB, invited him (off screen) to meet Tamara. Rumple’s pain is sad, but you can love one character without demonizing the others! It is sad for both.

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[Slurpeez]

Slurpeez, I agree with a lot of that, but it makes me uncomfortable to make quite so strong an analogy here.

I used hyperbole to illustrate a point. I’m not saying it’s a nice analogy, but I made it because I’m sick and tired of people constantly bashing Neal, a victim of his father’s actions, in favor of Rumple, a perpetrator, or in favor of Hook. And I say that as a fan of Neal, Rumple, and Hook. I love all three of them. All of them have their flaws, and all have been abandoned only to then turn around and abandon others. It’s a nasty habit, but I’m trying to shed light on this issue and look at it from another angle.

Let’s all be friends, please. I’m not trying to bash anyone personally. I’m trying to defend Neal, whom I see is constantly being criticized. Maybe it won’t change a person’s mind who is already determined to hate Neal, but I did it for any readers out there who are keeping an open mind and want a different perspective.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[PriceofMagic]

I think Neal should have stuck with Rumple. He would’ve been the lesser threat to Henry. Felix and Neal’s conversation at the beginning of the episode clued Neal in that Henry has the heart of the truest believer and Pan wants it. Rumple wants to reunite with Bae, harming Henry in any way would prevent that. Rumple would be on a figurative leash whilst he was with Bae. Rumple couldn’t poof away aand kill Henry because Bae would never forgive him. Neal has no idea what PP wants with Henry, for all he knows Pan might want to kill Henry. Neither option Neal had was ideal but sticking with Rumple would’ve afforded Bae some control over what happened whilst with Pan Neal has no control at all.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

[storyteller]

I would just remind you that in Storybrooke, Neal told his father to his face that the only reason he stayed was for Henry.  My personal opinion is that was a half truth, he was staying for his Papa as well but the fear and anger he feels has outweighed his love. The criticism is not of Neal or Rumple but an examination of the sins of the father passed down from generation to generation, The overall point that must be made is that Neal’s journey is to break the family curse of cowardice and abandonment just as much as his father.

With that said I thank everyone for a spirited debate, and hope that we can all take something away that challenges our conventions and opens our minds.

 

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[RumplesGirl]

*has been summoned*

Ok. So the Neal/Rumple debate has been a pretty hot once since the airing of 304. Should Neal have stayed? Was he right in leaving Rumple?

My own personal views on this subject are scattered across the forum if you feel up to hunting for them and I’m only going briefly reiterate them.

This is a hard subject given that I will literally defend Rumple with everything I have. Most of the people having this conversation know this about me. Had he actually killed Henry in 222, I probably would have performed some sort of magnificent rationalization dance to the tune of “self-preservation.”  The problem of course comes in that Neal is my second favorite character and that Rumple is currently “the Darker One” (to quote Bobby Carlyle)

On the one hand when Neal *did* leave I was like “NOOOOOOOO! He can change! I’ve seen it! He has good in him! Just BELIEVE! HAVE FAITH!” But do you already see the problem? I”VE seen it. I have the luxury of sitting in a chair every Sunday night and watching Once Upon a Time. Neal doesn’t. So all he knows is that PapaStiltskin has this nasty habit of killing people when it suits him. A maid saw the dagger? KILL HER! Your sons knee was injured by man with mule? TURN MAN INTO SNAIL AND STOMP!

But where is the leap of faith? Neal is capable of them, hence the “Imma jump out this window and cling to a shadow and hope I don’t go splat on the ground.” Maybe if Neal *had trusted* his Papa things would have worked out differently and maybe family would have been reunited sooner and then you just have to *trust* that Rumple won’t suddenly decide he doesn’t want to die and set out to kill Henry.

KFC is right in that you don’t get a cookie for not killing somebody everyday but when it comes to your children…what lines can you cross (ie: making a dark curse) and which ones won’t you cross (ie: leaving your child alone with a known murderer)

Ok. Those were RG’s two thoughts.

Now I will step on my box

This is a debate totally worthy of having. It’s a hot bed issue. I don’t like that people feel alone and like they fighting all by themselves because it *can* feel like you’re being ganged upon even if that’s not the intent of the authors. We all come to this with (can you guess what I’m about to say?) a subjective lens that we will never be able to rid ourselves of. I actually think there is  host of things happening here that are influencing all our decisions whether that be your love of Rumple, your unhappiness with Neal, or your ideas of faith and family.

I sincerely hope this doesn’t send Rumple over the edge, though I suspect it might because he just lost his will to live again. But I also think that the first time that happened, it spurred him toward self-sacrifice.

Mantra of the day: it’s a TV show. They are going to create as much tension and drama as possible.

Everyone here gets a hug and a cookie.

If the debate wants to continue that’s fine. I see no reason to shut down the thread except to urge caution at to SEE ALL SIDES OF THE STORY.

EDIT

In the time it took me to write that: please, no personal attacks. Please debate with each other kindly and with respect.

Also you can assume that RG has assumed a hawk like position over this thread and is going to be watching it closely.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Slurpeez]

I think Neal should have stuck with Rumple. He would’ve been the lesser threat to Henry. Felix and Neal’s conversation at the beginning of the episode clued Neal in that Henry has the heart of the truest believer and Pan wants it. Rumple wants to reunite with Bae, harming Henry in any way would prevent that. Rumple would be on a figurative leash whilst he was with Bae. Rumple couldn’t poof away aand kill Henry because Bae would never forgive him. Neal has no idea what PP wants with Henry, for all he knows Pan might want to kill Henry. Neither option Neal had was ideal but sticking with Rumple would’ve afforded Bae some control over what happened whilst with Pan Neal has no control at all.

How exactly could Neal have prevented his dad from killing Henry without the dark one’s dagger? While I doubt Rumple would kill Henry outright in front of his son, the last time he attempted to murder Henry, Rumple still thought his son was alive. The only thing that stayed Rumple’s hand was the news of Neal’s “death” which meant Rumple no longer had anything to live for in his mind. Not even Belle was enough to assuage his nihilism. When Rumple thought Neal was a vision and said he would sacrifice himself for Henry, Rumple still believed his son was dead. Once Rumple discovered that Neal was alive, however, Rumple once again had something to live for and consequently told Belle to go away when she said he needn’t kill Henry. As I said before, it’s twisted logic on Rumple’s part to believe that he could ever have a second chance with Neal if he kills Henry, but Rumple’s own cowardice and sense of self-preservation is so strong that he could chicken out at the last moment and kill his grandson if he thought he was about to die. I’m not saying I believe Rumple actually would do this, but he did chose himself over his own son once. He’s still capable of doing it again, and this is reflected in his own inner debates with vision Belle, and why the doll keeps coming back. Until Rumple deals with his own cowardice and his daddy issues, I don’t think Rumple is strong enough to sacrifice himself. His intentions are good, but he is a weak man who needs to first conquer his inner demons before he proves himself trustworthy.

I would just remind you that in Storybrooke, Neal told his father to his face that the only reason he stayed was for Henry.  My personal opinion is that was a half truth, he was staying for his Papa as well but the fear and anger he feels has outweighed his love. The overall point that must be made is that Neal’s journey is to break the family curse of cowardice and abandonment just as much as his father.

I agree with you here. I think Neal really does want to reconcile with his papa, as evidence by Neal’s reaction to Rumple’s speech to Belle in “The Miller’s Daughter.” Deep down, Neal is still struggling with his abandoment issues and he’s trying desperately not to let Henry face the same thing he went through. And I agree, that part of Neal’s healing process will come when Rumple deal’s with HIS daddy issues. When Rumple shows that he’s changing, it will in turn help Neal to let go of his own issues. It’s multi-generational.

With that said I thank everyone for a spirited debate, and hope that we can all take something away that challenges our conventions and opens our minds.

I happen to love spirited debate so long as it’s constructive, which I thought this was. Thanks for also bringing up some really excellent points.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

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