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What if the reason Peter and Rumple’s relationship went south was because Rumple met Milah? Rumple wanted to grow up and marry Milah whilst Pan didn’t want to grow up at all.
Milah has been present at major events in the Rumple’s life- Rumple deserting the ogre wars to come home, Milah abandoning Rumple and Bae for Hook, Hook going to Neverland in order to get revenge on Rumple for Milah’s death. Being the reason for Rumple’s friendship with Pan breaking up wouldn’t be too far fetched. Also it could be explain why Rumple was so angry when she said she NEVER loved him. She was the reason his friendship with Pan broke up.
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Keeper of FelixWhat if the reason Peter and Rumple’s relationship went south was because Rumple met Milah? Rumple wanted to grow up and marry Milah whilst Pan didn’t want to grow up at all.
Rumple would have had to meet her pretty young. He described himself and Pan as being quite close as children, meaning that they stopped being close after childhood and there are several stages in between childhood and adulthood, like adolescence, teenage years, young adult. I could still play out the way you say though. Rumple meets a young girl and says, “someday I shall marry her!” and PP feels rejected because it would be like Rumple had a new family and so then PP wishes on a little blue star and goes to NL where he never has to grow up except of course there’s some terrible dark shadow and pours nightmares into his head and changes him.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Ooh, I can see that. The only thing is I thought age wise Milah was 1o years younger than Rumple.
“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass
Ooh, I can see that. The only thing is I thought age wise Milah was 1o years younger than Rumple.
Good point. She is somewhat younger. If we were to say that Rumple was maybe 15 when he decided to marry milah, to make it less creepy she would need to be 13-15.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Milah’s actress is only 8 years younger than RC so they could easily say Milah and Rumple were almost around the same age, maybe a year or two’s difference. I always considered Hook to be younger than Milah.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixThought I’d start the discussion on Pan
Question: How evil is Pan and what are his relationships like with other people?
Pan is very selfish but on the grand scale of evil he’s really not that high up. His master plan was motivated by self-preservation. Had the heart of the truest believer not belonged to Henry, it’s highly likely that he never would’ve crossed paths with the main characters. Pan could’ve succeeded without it affecting any of the major characters in any way. Pan in Storybrooke only happened because his hand was forced. For example, bodyswitching with Henry when he was about to be stuck in Pandora’s box.
Pan’s/Malcolm’s motivation for wanting to be young forever seemed to stem from the fact that he never got a real childhood. He was sold to a blacksmith and forced to work. This could explain his childish demeanour when he was older and his reluctance to work- he was trying to recapture his lost childhood. A lot of Pan’s actions in Neverland are very self-centred rather than done out of sheer evilness. For example, taking lost boys to Neverland because he was lonely. Trying to find the heart of the truest believer or else he’d die. Abandoning Rumple so that he could be a boy again and stay in Neverland. If Pan/Malcolm could have gotten all that he wanted without needing to abandon Rumple then it’s likely that he wouldn’t have let Rumple go. The only thing that Pan/Malcolm has threatened to do just out of sheer malice is to kill Baelfire and Belle just because of what they meant to Rumple. However, up until that point, Pan wasn’t concerned with making people’s lives a misery, he was too occupied with saving his own behind.
Pan has relationships with several people on the show:
Rumple- Pan is Rumple’s father and admits to Rumple that he despised him the moment he was born and admits to Felix that he never loved Rumple. Yet we saw in flashback that Malcolm must have carried some sort of affection for his son otherwise he wouldn’t have taken young Rumple to Neverland with him. Malcolm tried to leave Rumple with the spinsters, at least ensuring Rumple went to a decent home. If he never cared for Rumple, why not just sell Rumple off to anyone or just abandon Rumple in the woods. Why go through the trouble of finding someone who would take Rumple in? Malcolm certainly wouldn’t win any parent of the year awards but he did at least ensure Rumple went to a good home.
Present day Pan/Malcolm’s relationship with Rumple is one of the worst we have seen on the show. It’s full of hatred on both sides but perhaps more so on Pan’s side. A possible explanation for this is that Pan is well aware his time is running out, he doesn’t have many options left to choose from and he blames Rumple for it. Pan/Malcolm is doing everything he can to hurt/punish Rumple such as telling him he despised him, he never loved him, threatening to kill his loved ones yet once Rumple’s stabbed him with the dagger, Malcolm is trying to negotiate with Rumple and play the we can reunite card, which suggests that Malcolm was just being spiteful rather than having any great desire to harm/kill anybody just for the sake of it.
Felix- Pan and Felix had a genuine friendship which suggests that Pan is capable of caring for people outside of himself so long as he doesn’t have to put them before himself. Pan could tell when something was wrong just by a look on Felix’s face yet had no hesitation about using Felix’s heart to cast the dark curse. Felix was loyal to Pan to the end which suggests that Pan must have treated Felix in such a way that Felix felt the need to remain loyal to Pan even after it seemed Pan had been defeated when loyalty to Pan wouldn’t have benefitted Felix in any way.
Tinkerbell- We never got to see Pan and Tinkerbell interact on Once yet she was supposedly trusted by him. However, she was quite happy to betray Pan so long as she had an escape route off Neverland. This contrasts with Felix who was loyal to Pan to the end. So why the difference in attitude towards Pan between the two people Pan trusts the most?
Hook- Hook has been involved with Pan on several occasions including at one point doing some undisclosed “dirty work”. What’s interesting about this is that Pan himself refers to it as “dirty work”. With Pan being the morally questionable character that he is, what sort of work would he consider to be of a dirty nature or is he just talking about it in general being something that’s not quite above board?
Wendy- Wendy was scared of Pan. She only did what he asked in order to keep Michael and John safe, and vice versa them for her. However, since the Darlings weren’t able to be in direct contact with each other, they only had Pan’s word that the other was safe and at anytime Pan could have killed them without the other knowing. This could suggest that Pan does actually keep his promises when he gives his word.
Conclusion: Pan is a character who is selfish, spiteful and put his own well-being above others including family and friends. He is capable of caring for others but only if it serves his self-interest. He seems to keep his promises but again this could only be because it serves him to do so. Pan is not particularly evil unless his goals contradict the goals of the major characters.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixQuestion: How evil is Pan and what are his relationships like with other people?
Easy answer. EVIL. He’s really the first time they’ve done evil for the sake of evil. They never explore his background to tell us “how evil was made.” He’s just simply evil.
Pan is very selfish but on the grand scale of evil he’s really not that high up. His master plan was motivated by self-preservation.
I’d say selfishness, not self-preservation which means that his own life was in danger had he not gone through with his plans. He feared dying, something all men must do (obvious GoT reference is obvious)
No one is actively seeking to kill him. He caused his own troubles by being selfish and cold.
Pan in Storybrooke only happened because his hand was forced. For example, bodyswitching with Henry when he was about to be stuck in Pandora’s box.
He was trying to rip off Henry’s shadow and kill him. Don’t take away his agency. He chose to continually go after Henry.
Pan’s/Malcolm’s motivation for wanting to be young forever seemed to stem from the fact that he never got a real childhood. He was sold to a blacksmith and forced to work
Heaven forbid children be forced to work. Or to learn a trade that will ensure them that they have a steady job, food, and roof over their heads when they grow up. Malcolm was a selfish, wanton, man. His childhood was no different than others who are apprenticed off.
Rumple- Pan is Rumple’s father and admits to Rumple that he despised him the moment he was born and admits to Felix that he never loved Rumple. Yet we saw in flashback that Malcolm must have carried some sort of affection for his son otherwise he wouldn’t have taken young Rumple to Neverland with him. Malcolm tried to leave Rumple with the spinsters, at least ensuring Rumple went to a decent home. If he never cared for Rumple, why not just sell Rumple off to anyone or just abandon Rumple in the woods. Why go through the trouble of finding someone who would take Rumple in? Malcolm certainly wouldn’t win any parent of the year awards but he did at least ensure Rumple went to a good home.
He took Rumple to NL because Rumple had the bean. He needed the bean.
He left Rumple with the spinsters but never intended to come back for him. Yeah, he left Rumple with two woman who would feed him, but we don’t know his motivations behind it. He flat out said he never cared for Rumple
Felix- Pan and Felix had a genuine friendship which suggests that Pan is capable of caring for people outside of himself so long as he doesn’t have to put them before himself
So genuine that Pan kills him!!! That’s friendship.
Pan didn’t give two figs for Felix. He used what Felix offered him, loyalty.
Felix was loyal to Pan to the end which suggests that Pan must have treated Felix in such a way that Felix felt the need to remain loyal to Pan even after it seemed Pan had been defeated when loyalty to Pan wouldn’t have benefitted Felix in any way.
he benefits by getting to stay young forever and continue his reign of Sir Clubs-a-lot. Pan let Felix be dark and twisted. That’s where the loyalty came from.
Hook- Hook has been involved with Pan on several occasions including at one point doing some undisclosed “dirty work”. What’s interesting about this is that Pan himself refers to it as “dirty work”. With Pan being the morally questionable character that he is, what sort of work would he consider to be of a dirty nature or is he just talking about it in general being something that’s not quite above board?
We’ll never know. But whatever it was, I don’t think it was involved sunshine and puppies.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Conclusion: Pan is a character who is selfish, spiteful and put his own well-being above others including family and friends. He is capable of caring for others but only if it serves his self-interest. He seems to keep his promises but again this could only be because it serves him to do so. Pan is not particularly evil unless his goals contradict the goals of the major characters.
This here…this is all that needs to be said. Best conclusion of who Peter Pan is, SELFISH, MANIPULATIVE, & IMMORAL. He is dare I say….the one villain no one had sympathy for, and everyone hated. But Robbie Kay did such a brilliant job playing him. Peter Pan made Cora seem like Mother of the Year.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Question: How evil is Pan and what are his relationships like with other people?
Easy answer. EVIL. He’s really the first time they’ve done evil for the sake of evil. They never explore his background to tell us “how evil was made.” He’s just simply evil.
They don’t explore his background so he doesn’t really get a reason why he is like he is besides the snippets through dialogue. However on the grand scale of evil, Pan’s plan was rather small.
Pan is very selfish but on the grand scale of evil he’s really not that high up. His master plan was motivated by self-preservation.
I’d say selfishness, not self-preservation which means that his own life was in danger had he not gone through with his plans. He feared dying, something all men must do (obvious GoT reference is obvious)
No one is actively seeking to kill him. He caused his own troubles by being selfish and cold.
The shadow showed him a big hourglass and said once it runs out he will die. Pan’s life was in danger in that if he did nothing he’d die. The shadow showed him a countdown to his death, obviously Pan wanted to stop that. Whether he was right to or not if he had the chance is its own discussion point.
Pan in Storybrooke only happened because his hand was forced. For example, bodyswitching with Henry when he was about to be stuck in Pandora’s box.
He was trying to rip off Henry’s shadow and kill him. Don’t take away his agency. He chose to continually go after Henry.
You misunderstand me. I am not trying to take away Pan’s agency. He chose to do everything he did. What I’m saying is had the Nevengers not interfered and Pan’s plan had succeeded without a hitch, Pan would never have set foot in Storybrooke. Being in Storybrooke was never part of Pan’s plan.
Pan’s/Malcolm’s motivation for wanting to be young forever seemed to stem from the fact that he never got a real childhood. He was sold to a blacksmith and forced to work
Heaven forbid children be forced to work. Or to learn a trade that will ensure them that they have a steady job, food, and roof over their heads when they grow up. Malcolm was a selfish, wanton, man. His childhood was no different than others who are apprenticed off.
They stopped sending children up chimneys and down mines for a reason. Is slaving in front of a fire day in day out for a blacksmith really any better for a child? It’s hardly a paper round.
Rumple- Pan is Rumple’s father and admits to Rumple that he despised him the moment he was born and admits to Felix that he never loved Rumple. Yet we saw in flashback that Malcolm must have carried some sort of affection for his son otherwise he wouldn’t have taken young Rumple to Neverland with him. Malcolm tried to leave Rumple with the spinsters, at least ensuring Rumple went to a decent home. If he never cared for Rumple, why not just sell Rumple off to anyone or just abandon Rumple in the woods. Why go through the trouble of finding someone who would take Rumple in? Malcolm certainly wouldn’t win any parent of the year awards but he did at least ensure Rumple went to a good home.
He took Rumple to NL because Rumple had the bean. He needed the bean.
He left Rumple with the spinsters but never intended to come back for him. Yeah, he left Rumple with two woman who would feed him, but we don’t know his motivations behind it. He flat out said he never cared for Rumple
Malcolm could’ve just took the bean off of Rumple, he didn’t need to take him to Neverland with him.
Also Malcolm did just want to be rid of Rumple, but why not leave him in the woods or sell him off to be an apprentice? Why go through the trouble of at least finding Rumple a decent home? To ease a guilty conscience perhaps?
Felix- Pan and Felix had a genuine friendship which suggests that Pan is capable of caring for people outside of himself so long as he doesn’t have to put them before himself
So genuine that Pan kills him!!! That’s friendship.
Pan didn’t give two figs for Felix. He used what Felix offered him, loyalty.
Pan had to sacrifice the heart of the thing he loved most, he said so himself about love “it doesn’t just come from romance or family, it can also come from loyalty and friendship”. Pan himself brought up friendship so I think Pan did consider Felix a friend, however Pan, being the selfish character that he is, put his own goals above others.
Felix was loyal to Pan to the end which suggests that Pan must have treated Felix in such a way that Felix felt the need to remain loyal to Pan even after it seemed Pan had been defeated when loyalty to Pan wouldn’t have benefitted Felix in any way.
he benefits by getting to stay young forever and continue his reign of Sir Clubs-a-lot. Pan let Felix be dark and twisted. That’s where the loyalty came from.
Pan let the other lost boys do what they want yet they aren’t as loyal to Pan as Felix is. They gave Pan up on the promise of a home from Emma (which is unclear whether or not she delivered on). Also Felix wasn’t affected by Pan’s pipe music (though it wasn’t explained why). I think there is more to it than just Pan let Felix do what he wants.
Hook- Hook has been involved with Pan on several occasions including at one point doing some undisclosed “dirty work”. What’s interesting about this is that Pan himself refers to it as “dirty work”. With Pan being the morally questionable character that he is, what sort of work would he consider to be of a dirty nature or is he just talking about it in general being something that’s not quite above board?
We’ll never know. But whatever it was, I don’t think it was involved sunshine and puppies.
I agree. Perhaps Hook was involved in trapping Wendy in Neverland?
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix
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