Plausible Family Trees

[RumplesGirl]

Consider how irritated Rumple was at being disturbed by David who said he wasn’t taking no for an answer and that Rumple must have something. Rumple I’ll bet told him the Excalibur tale to get him to go away. Then when Snow wanted to pay off the debt angered that his time has been wasted Rumple exposes David’s deception and exacts her mother’s necklace for his troubles.

He may have said Excalibar but I think David knew the story and didn’t Rumple to lay out all the details.

At that point, when Charming pulls the sword in stone routine, was that before or after his secret wedding to Snow performed by Lancelot? Timeline headaches!

Before. Snow had just woken up. The secret wedding was in the battle of the war, which began AFTER this episode.

It really doesn’t feel plot critical to me to learn how exactly Regina’s original royal line might have played into things, as there are multiple kingdoms in this realm.

Often times it feels like you have more kingdoms than realm. Somehow we’ve got Snow, George, Regina, Aurora, whoever Moe served under, Mal, and Ella

[storyteller]

I also don’t think George is related to Regina, unless in the way many European monarchs related to each other because of constant intermarrying. We also cannot conclude that Henry had 4 brothers because we don’t know the rules of succession in that fictional Kingdom. Regina took over Leo’s throne, in part because she framed Snow for murder, but it could be the usual rule that a spouse would take over, if heirs not born or too young (as Regent at least). I’m not a historian, but I believe at different points various monarchies have allowed for succession through a female child rather than only the male line. So it might also be the case females could inherit the throne in this Once fantasy kingdom setting. (Eva in Miller’s Daughter is already a princess though not married). So maybe Henry had another brother who had 3 kids and a wife. I think the writers just left space to figure it out later, if they manage to book Rose to play young Cora and want to pad out some storytelling in a future episode. It really doesn’t feel plot critical to me to learn how exactly Regina’s original royal line might have played into things, as there are multiple kingdoms in this realm.

Until we have an episode that confirms it of course we can assume that those preceding Henry in the succession are his elder siblings . Aside from satisfying a curiosity it is a logical avenue that one can travel when you consider the possibilities. Now, if A & E follow the standard convention of male heirs taking precedence (which historically follows from Salic Law) which we have seen nothing so far to contradict we can assume that for the moment that Henry has elder siblings and that they are male.  Now could Henry have an elder sibling with children, of course and a Richard III-esqe  plot could follow.  I would argue that Regina’s family situation is critical to understanding how Cora and Henry ended up at the manor house, how far Cora’s ambition went and just what impact if any was such a treacherous family on young Regina’s development.

As far as Snow is concerned she is a sole child and the legitimate heir, Regina as Queen Consort usurped power and because Snow fled to the woods after Graham spared her life and made no initial attempts to redress the situation Regina was able to rule unopposed. That is why in 3×02 Regina tried to force Snow to renounce her rights, when she did have a mind to exercise them. The role of women in the EF does seem to be rather conventional however, I would point to what Belle said about “lack of opportunities” for women in that realm and the eyebrows that Mulan raises by being a warrior. Which would seem to imply that traditional expectations of women predominate.

The rules of succession in most monarchies fall into the following categories:

equal primogeniture: First-born child regardless of gender succeeds Ex. Scandinavian monarchies

male-preference primogeniture: First-born male children inherit taking precedence even over elder female relatives. Ex. United Kingdom (until recently)

agnatic primogeniture: All heirs must be male w/o exception Ex. Principality of Lichtenstein

 

 

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[RumplesGirl]

As far as Snow is concerned she is a sole child and the legitimate heir,

This might be a bit of a branch off, but we’ve discussed a few times if Snow would have been the heir no matter what. Had Leo and Eva had a son, for example, would Snow still have been next in line? Leo seems prompted to make Snow his heir not only because she is his sole heir but also out of love for her. Just something I’ve wondered given that the EF does seem very conservative in terms of the roles of women. In fact, Screwball has a few essays on social class. (When it doubt, quote Screwball!)

http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/58457993347/belle-always-a-lady-essay-in-4-parts-this-is

http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/58727282747/cinderella-one-uppity-peasant-essay-in-2-parts

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[storyteller]

I would consider Snow having an elder sibling as non sequitir. Since she has been firmly established by episodic canon as her parents only child and as such is the heir by any rule of succession you put forward save agnatic primogeniture (in which case the kingdom would go to Leopold’s closest male relative and Snow would be on her own)

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[RumplesGirl]

I would consider Snow having an elder sibling as non sequitir. Since she has been firmly established by episodic canon as her parents only child and as such is the heir by any rule of succession you put forward save agnatic primogeniture (in which case the kingdom would go to Leopold’s closest male relative and Snow would be on her own)

I wasn’t thinking elder. I was thinking a younger brother and it was just a passing thought that I wanted to stick in because yes line of succession does make Snow the heir but I also wonder if she’s a special case. Do we really think Leo had *no* other living male heirs? FTL seems to be agnatic primogeniture, though I suppose we haven’t seen a whole of succession apart from Leo to Snow and George to James, both of whom had no other options. Like I said…just a passing thought.

Anyway…back to Regina or Robin.

Robin as Arthur I think would be complicated unless we’re assuming Marian is Gwen which doesn’t make a lot of sense given that we’ve seen both Lancelot and the Sheriff and they weren’t the same guy. Unless both of them were in love with Marian/Gwen. And, honestly Marian isn’t that big of a character and isn’t likely to be given that A and E have written her off.

I rather like the idea of him being a prince in disguise or a king in disguise, though I think mashing him with Arthurian legend would be harder. if RegalHood is endgame, and if Regina is no longer Queen of her own realm (complicated stuff is complicatd…I don’t know how they would make this work once they all get back to the EF) then having her marry someone who is secretly a King with his own kingdom, might be a way to keep her being the Queen but out of Snow’s hair.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[kfchimera]

RG–I agree.  The model for the FTL kingdoms does appear very European feudal male-dominated monarchies, but it is not 100% bound by those rules and conventions. We have references to King Midas, who had a daughter with a non-prince fiance until an accident cursed him.  The implication was she was to inherit, not that she had to marry a male prince necessarily.They did not make it a plot point that Regina, a female child was not in line for the throne by virtue of being female.

 

“If I had a world of my own, everything would be nonsense. Nothing would be what it is, because everything would be what it isn't. And contrary wise, what is, it wouldn't be. And what it wouldn't be, it would. You see?” -- Lewis Carroll, Alice's Adventures in Wonderland & Through the Looking-Glass

[storyteller]

Now, who says that in the Once universe Gwen has to be adulterous? Maybe Regina is Gwen or A&E don’t even introduce their own version.   We also know that Lancelot and Cora have some history which may be illuminated upon. I’ll re-watch Lady of Lake and see what the facts support.

 

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[RumplesGirl]

I don’t want to belabor the point but if we take the feudal European type atmosphere all the way, then having one child as royalty was not ideal, death rates being what they were. When a child was born, there was a very high percentage that it would not live to see its 5th birthday. So as harsh as this might seem, having a “backup” heir was very important to kings. So Leo may have loved Snow and fully intended her to be his heir no matter what but not having a backup heir isn’t quite right.

Of course we could sweep this all under the rug by saying, “simplicity in TV is called for because this isn’t Game of Thrones.”

Now, who says that in the Once universe Gwen has to be adulterous? Maybe Regina is Gwen or A&E don’t even introduce their own version.   We also know that Lancelot and Cora have some history which may be illuminated upon.

Missed this while I was typing my own response. No one is to say that Gwen is adulterous, to be sure. Though it is implied that Lancelot left his kingdom because of a woman and we sorta drew a semi-logical conclusion from that. I suppose it doesn’t have to be Gwen but given that they have said no plans to bring back Lancelot at this time and that they consider Camelot out of bounds for the time being…I’m going to make the assumption that Arthurian legend isn’t going to play in right now apart from the odd reference.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[storyteller]

Last bit I’ll say on inheriting a kingdom

I don’t think we need to take the historical analogy to the Middle-Ages as far as all that, these are after all Fairy Tale characters. I’m just using a basic template of how dynastic succession works in practice in the real world and when/if  A&E write up something that breaks the precedent or solidifies it, I’ll adapt my arguments to suit it taking each kingdom on a case by case basis.   In addition, the degree at which references to the Arthurian Romances are cropping up makes me personally believe that a symbolic subtext is being established that will culminate somewhere down the line.  As far as Midas’ realm goes if his realm reflects the real world a realistic expectation would be that Abigail succeeds him and becomes queen regnant and Frederick would be a prince consort (think Victoria and Albert) by fairy tale conventions Midas could appoint Frederick his successor upon marriage. Given that 1×03 established that royal marriages in the EF are regarded as business transactions, then the fair assumption is that the modes and mores I’ve touched upon earlier stand.

Moving on, any thoughts on potential gaps in David’s family line? We still don’t know his father and Ruth’s family history would be interesting to know as well.

 

Custodian of Graham's darts, Rumple's spindle and Robin's quiver

[RumplesGirl]

Moving on, any thoughts on potential gaps in David’s family line? We still don’t know his father and Ruth’s family history would be interesting to know as well.

Like I said earlier, I think there is more to David’s father than just “a shepherd.” It wouldn’t surprise me if he was a knight or even a lesser prince who gave it all up for love. It’s very romantic fairy tale-like, especially given that then the opposite happens to Charming. I don’t know if we can ascribe any particular fairy tale to his father since we haven’t met him. As for Ruth: if David’s father is the knight/lesser prince, ect. then I would imagine that Ruth is peasant born. She might have a fairly normal background.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Author]

Posts