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As long as the show keeps going, there’s the chance that Zelena isn’t Cora’s eldest. If they want to redeem Cora, especially for abandoning Zelena, then trauma involving a previous child would be one way to explain Cora’s destructive choices.
I hope the show doesn’t go this route, but I don’t think it’s unlikely.
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Cora said in show that Jonathan took her “virtue” which is to say he took her virginity therefore Zelena would be Cora’s eldest. Zelena and Regina are Cora’s only children because Cora was Barbara Hearshey when she was pushed through the portal to Wonderland so Cora would have been past childbearing age then.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixCora said in show that Jonathan took her “virtue” which is to say he took her virginity
I take everything Cora says with a grain of salt, and especially since she was in a crisis at that time. There could also be “conceal, don’t feel, don’t let it show” issues, such as she was raped at 14 by a family member or something like that.
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Not quite sure if I can follow your thinking, @schaendlich. It’s not like Cora ever really cared about Zelena, she probably gladly would have handed her to Rumple as price for becoming a royal, if the contract would have stayed unchanged.
Just to be clear, I was not insinuating that Cora cared at all about Zelena. I know full well that Cora cared nothing about Zelena. I just wanted to make a point to say that Cora’s decline to pay the price being accepted as her “getting out” of the contract makes no sense. I also wanted to make the point that she most likely was not playing Rumpel when she accepted the change, because it would probably lead to her giving up her chances to achieve her personal goals, point blank. She can’t be preggers for nine months before Henry even touches her without Henry finding out about it. Even Henry’s father said that everyone knew that Cora was cavorting with Rumpel. Especially if Rumpel came and claimed the child when it was born, Cora would be found out, and her dreams would be over. She would have a personal price to pay by accepting. Not only that, but a personal price that would cost her any chance to be royalty. I.e. she would “lose” if it had been a scheme to get a foothold on the Dark One.
When I said she couldn’t outsmart the Dark One, it was only in the sense that in accepting she could no longer remove herself from having a child with Rumpel. My message really had nothing to do with Cora or Zelena as villains, or the stupidity of Rumpel’s choice. I just wanted to point out that plot hole and to hear everyone’s take on why she was allowed off the hook.
When I said she couldn’t outsmart the Dark One, it was only in the sense that in accepting she could no longer remove herself from having a child with Rumpel. My message really had nothing to do with Cora or Zelena as villains, or the stupidity of Rumpel’s choice. I just wanted to point out that plot hole and to hear everyone’s take on why she was allowed off the hook.
I think the deal wasn’t Cora HAD to have a child with Rumple, it was IF Cora had a child with Rumple, that would be the one she owed. I don’t think Cora was playing Rumple when she let him change the deal because they had arranged to meet after she’d taken Xavier’s heart. Cora had the decency to at least turn up and let Rumple know she wasn’t leaving with him rather than just standing him up.
As for why Rumple didn’t pursue the deal, again I think it was based on IF not When but also Rumple is not the type to force himself on anyone. He may have pursued revenge on Cora for breaking the deal by other means but when she said no to him, that deal wasn’t able to be fulfilled because any child she had wouldn’t be his. Rumple may have been the dark one but he still had standards.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixWhen I said she couldn’t outsmart the Dark One, it was only in the sense that in accepting she could no longer remove herself from having a child with Rumpel.
Why not? Nothing said she had to have a child with Rumple IMO. Besides there always had been means and with magic sure some more to avoid to have a child.
As far as we know the contract said, Cora owed Rumple her firstborn, in the sense of it would be Rumple’s, she would have to hand it over to him. There was no word of her having to have a child though. Rumple even told her, that he knew she would have a daughter (not sure what made him so sure that was her firstborn child though), so he probably never considered that he’d better make sure to note in the fine-print, that it was Cora’s obligation to have at least one child in a certain time. Cora wanted to marry royal, she quite sure would be trying to bear a child, to have a heir, why should Rumple worry about that little detail. Cora owed Rumple her firstborn, but she didn’t owe him to have a child. And Rumple didn’t seem to have set any due date, he was sure, Cora would have a child, and the contract said, she owed her firstborn to him.
When Rumple offered a change of the contract it was about only one thing, one detail, that the child wouldn’t be some “random” firstborn, but his child.
Sure, one can say, Cora still owed him, Rumple didn’t leave her out of the contract, no waiver, so Cora still was in Rumple’s debt – but what could he have done about making her pay? Force her or trick her into having his child or try to, but he could not be sure to get what he wanted.
In his hubris Rumple had told Cora, that he had seen her daughter would be important in the future, so she knew it was not some random deal, he was after them. He could kill her perhaps, but then there would have been no child (as far as he knew at that point) and she had to have a daughter. So Rumple had to bite his time and wait and find another way to get a grip on her daughter.
I probably spent too much time with politics, politicians, lawyers and discussing the fine-prints and subtleties of charters and laws as much as details of contracts and consumer protection.
For Cora there was nothing to lose when she said yes to the change. To me it is still open if it was all sincere, but she at least made it sound like she would now go with Rumple, call the royal wedding off, take revenge on the king for humiliating her by taking his heart (killing him?) and set of into a dark happy honeymoon with Rumple, sharing his isolation but also probably learning more magic and gaining a different kind of power, though in isolation and not as celebrated royal respected person. Having his child probably sounded not like any bad idea when her feelings where any sincere. And if not, why care, there were means to avoid having a child. Whatever way and intention Cora had that moment, the change Rumple made was no loss for her.
On Rumple’s side though I see some flaw in the logic, blinded fool.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
I think the deal wasn’t Cora HAD to have a child with Rumple, it was IF Cora had a child with Rumple, that would be the one she owed.
Ah, but that was never said. That’s what I’m getting at. We can’t do the writing for the writers. If there was such a loophole, it would be mentioned. I realize that they’d never have Rumpel force himself onto anyone. That’s gross, out of character, and this is a family show. But, he did change the contract. That was plainly stated. So, why not write in a price for her as they did for Cinderella? Rumpel always says that no one breaks a deal with him, and maintains that it doesn’t happen EVER without a price. But as long as we see that Cora just floated out of there, that’s no longer true.
Believe me, there were ways of pursuing the deal (but as I said, gross, out of character, non family options). So, really the deal was never rendered null and void, because regardless, there were options. However, because he’s NOT that kind of monster, I always wonder why he didn’t just take something away from Cora? Make her life miserable? Something? I always wonder if Regina pushing Cora through the mirror is the price Cora had to pay for breaking the deal. Or maybe he did get “their” child because he and Cora did manipulate Regina, and Rumpel has been referred to as a “daddy” figure. But I’m not sure.
It’s just an odd little thing that really annoyed me when I first saw the episode.
Why not? Nothing said she had to have a child with Rumple IMO. Besides there always had been means and with magic sure some more to avoid to have a child.
As I said above, that’s kind of writing for the writers. He blatantly says “Can we change the contract from your baby to our baby?” And she says “Yes”. The contract is changed. That baby is an obligation, because that is how contracts work. There is nothing in the episode to suggest otherwise. Nothing to give you cause to assume that she doesn’t owe it, other than suspending your disbelief. No other talk, of no other loophole, of this not being an official change in the deal.
You don’t make a contract with your car dealer, but once you get the car say “I’m sorry, but no cent of the money I agreed to give you will ever be yours.” No, no. You would have to pay, or end up in jail. That’s all that I’m saying. True enough, there were no consequences in show, but Cora should have had one, just as Cinderella did. She should not have been able to pull out of the deal. He said the deal is changed. She agreed. That means she pays or he punishes her. Point blank. Saying that you don’t think that happened is ignoring what was said plainly in the show.
Also, I didn’t mean to suggest that Cora thought it was a bad idea at the time. I was just using the weight of this new deal to assure others in past posts about Cora’s sincerity in wanting to be with Rumpel. I was saying basically that IF she had been planning the whole time to outsmart him, then accepting his amendment to the deal was very foolish, and that is why I think she WAS being sincere. (And I do agree that Rumpel was blinded by love to make such a bad decision that could have caused him to end up like Henry Sr.)
So, this is me more wondering why the writers didn’t think more about this and write in a penalty for Cora as they did with Cinderella. “No one breaks a deal with me” is already one of Rumpel’s slogans. We all know that they wouldn’t have Rumpel take “their” child by force. So, why not have Cora pay the proper penance instead of just forcing this at me and telling me that it makes sense? Either the writers want me to assume that he let Cora get away with no skin off her nose, because he loved her still, or that in some way he did obtain his price. It could be that through his and Cora’s shared manipulation of Regina, he did become Regina’s “father”. Or maybe, the writers just didn’t think things through.
I just dunno. It will always bother me until I am sure. :/
@schaendlich I disagree with you on the reading of the contract and its details. But both are possible, you see a plothole and I don’t.
Cora probably still owed Rumple, but what should he have done about that without further endangering his plans? He needed her for a while, one way or the other, besides that she had learned some tricks to protect herself in time. He helped to exile her to Wonderland, and didn’t hesitate to take her life to save his own later.
And he pretty much took her daughter, didn’t he, made her his puppet, what better revenge than that?
Making her daughter his kid was never a smart idea on Rumples’ side though. He faired better this way.
¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯
Well…based on this scene, I’d say Cora and Rumple genuinely loved one another, as in IN Love with each other. But it wasn’t till Cora had the talk with King Xavier about love being weakness that changed Cora’s mind, and I’m quite sure the whole falling in love with Johnathan, betrayed, sold out by Ava to Leo situation only cemented her decision to give up on love, and just go for power.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsSdh45Zu_Y
Cora’s issue was that she couldn’t trust love, she had been too far damaged and betrayed by it to give it another chance. She was about to with Rumple, but much like how Regina did to Robin, Cora ran away from love. I do believe had Rumple been more aggressive, and pursued Cora in an attempt to win her heart(even though she didn’t have it in her chest), I think he could have won her back, but Rumple’s own issues with love and heartbreak…(cough) the trollop Millah (cough)…I think scared him too.
So Rumple and Cora were in a way, a perfect match for one another. Both had terrible experiences with love, and both had goals that they could have helped one another attain. But a past of tragedy, heartbreak, and betrayal scared both of them(mainly Cora) out of pursuing the “What If” in their vibrant love affair. And before anyone say anything about the Dark One’s Curse…had the both of them fully gave their all to one another, that curse would have been broken, but hence…Rumple and Cora held back in fear of getting hurt.
Had Cora actually left to disappear into the sunset with Rumple, and had Regina, so much could have been avoided, and the only threat that probably would have occurred later in life would have been Zelena, well…I think Rumple and Cora would have welcomed her in. There are still some Oncers who remain convinced that Regina is Rumple’s daughter…but personally, I’m taking Jane Espenson’s word for it, that she’s not. But this show has been known to retcon, so we never know what surprises may come out in the future.
P.S. I think Cora was fully redeemed before her death…she didn’t have her heart in her body, so she never understood the terror she wrought upon others in her life. When she told Rumple “This would have been enough” and she told Regina “You would have been enough”…she recognized her mistakes in life, and was truly remorseful of them…thus she died a redeemed, honest woman.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Qvgi8-J3_DE
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
If Cora had become the Dark One, could she have been able to take on all the power without her heart? Or would her new powers had been more subdued? Kind of like Jafar’s magic law breaking spell not working when Will didn’t have his heart. It appears that Rumple never removed his heart so I’m wondering if there is a reason why. Cora’s heart was bright red, but Regina’s is dark red, loaded with dark spots. I guess Cora’s was still bright red, because all the awful things she did was without her heart, no wonder she felt so remorseful when she got it back.
Nothing is impossible on OUAT. Everything has a way of repeating itself. Keeper of the Keeper tread: https://oncepodcast.com/forums/topic/official-keeper-thread-3/#post-217924
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