Redemption

[RumplesGirl]

Something that occurred to me while watching this episode: redemption and salvation. The show is obviously playing with these incredibly heavy topics this year. My question is this: how does the show conceive of redemption and salvation; how does it differ from whatever tradition (secular or religious) you grew up with; and are you okay with how the show is defining salvation/redemption for this arc?

It is Easter Sunday afterall. Might as well bring out the big topics. 😉

[RumplesGirl]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around some of this so forgive me if it’s rather scatterbrained.

I think my issue comes down to this: can you have forgiveness or redemption without any sort of suffering. If we make this interpersonal and maybe take out God/religion…it bothers me that Hook starts off this episode saying that he doesn’t deserved to be saved because of his crimes (which are numerous and lengthy and extend back many years). I actually think that’s too his credit and it’s very nice to see him openly admitting that. He’s ready to put in the work, as it were, of atoning for his various ills. However, by episodes end, he comes around to Emma’s way of thinking, that he does deserve to go back to SB, he deserves saving, and that he’s a hero.

But where’s the work? Where’s the suffering that earned him this forgiveness? He was beaten up and bloody a bit, and perhaps was one of Cerberus’s chew toys for a very brief period, but for the many (many many) crimes committed, is it enough?

The show seems to think so. Is that…okay?

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Keb]

Hm. This one is tricky, especially on a show with antiheroes who have really dark pasts.

Hook, Regina, and Rumple have all done particularly evil, unforgivable things that include a lot of murder between them, and even most of our purest heroes are not innocent of such things anymore. Things that in the real world would make them unsuitable for (healthy) relationships, community roles like being mayor or sheriff, parenting…things that western society would definitely lock you up for life for, if not execute you.

And even for the most hardcore fans, there have been moments when the characters crossed our admittedly looser moral lines because it IS fiction, when they went TOO far and we wondered whether there was a way they could come back from it. Half our arguments tend to stem from whether what X did was too evil for them to get the happy endings we wish for them as we fall in love with the characters’ human, vulnerable sides. Interestingly, the tipping point when people DO give up on a character is often not murder…but rather something seen as a betrayal of their own moral code or another character we love just as much (see Rumbelle’s shattered fandom after S4).

So. Given that we’re expected to root for characters in this show who do things we’d NEVER support in real life (even if we’re not meant to root for them to keep doing those things), redemption is a very interesting question. One thing that sticks out for me is how many characters were denied their happy endings by our antihero villains. True, most of them were just guest characters, peasants, or not even shown on screen (most of Hook’s victims, which is part of why he comes off as so much nicer than Regina or Rumple, both of whom we’ve watched murder scores of people on screen–I have some numbers, but I still don’t know how you count an entire village), but they were portrayed as human people who lost their chance because someone needed vengeance or because they were in the way.

I’m liking the fact that this is coming back to haunt them in S5 in a very direct way. Redemption and forgiveness for the things they’ve done can really only be offered by the ones they’ve harmed (which does include themselves, an important emotional insight that was hammered a little hard in 515). I want to believe that even the worst of them CAN be redeemed if they’re willing to work at it, and even willing to accept that in this fictional show, that can lead having a happy ending they denied to others.

But it SHOULD take work and sacrifice to achieve. You can’t just kill someone, say sorry, and move on–even in this fictional universe where there’s a very high chance that your victim will return in some form. Rumple and Milah actually going through their issues was a very powerful moment (a potential forgiveness that of course Hades persuaded Rumple to destroy not long after). Likewise, Regina and Henry Sr. making amends was very necessary and powerful…and of course it was Henry Sr., whose faults were small by comparison, who was “saved” by it, not Regina. I think it feels more powerful when there IS a clear sacrifice by the one being saved, as when Liam was willing to fall into the flames…but the more directly it’s chosen, the more significance it has. Milah’s willingness to help her murderer and her true love’s new girlfriend was, I think, a really good example (and she didn’t even get saved, but I do think a little redeemed and I’m still holding out for her to be rescued at some point).

Keeper of Belle's Gold magic, sand dollar, cloaks, purple FTL outfit, spell scroll, library key, copy of Romeo and Juliet, and cry-muffling pillow, Rumple's doll, overcoat, and strength, and The Timeline. My spreadsheet: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B6r8CySCCWd9R0RUNm4xR3RhMEU/view?usp=sharing

[thedarkonedearie]

I’m still trying to wrap my head around some of this so forgive me if it’s rather scatterbrained. I think my issue comes down to this: can you have forgiveness or redemption without any sort of suffering. If we make this interpersonal and maybe take out God/religion…it bothers me that Hook starts off this episode saying that he doesn’t deserved to be saved because of his crimes (which are numerous and lengthy and extend back many years). I actually think that’s too his credit and it’s very nice to see him openly admitting that. He’s ready to put in the work, as it were, of atoning for his various ills. However, by episodes end, he comes around to Emma’s way of thinking, that he does deserve to go back to SB, he deserves saving, and that he’s a hero. But where’s the work? Where’s the suffering that earned him this forgiveness? He was beaten up and bloody a bit, and perhaps was one of Cerberus’s chew toys for a very brief period, but for the many (many many) crimes committed, is it enough? The show seems to think so. Is that…okay?

Man you nailed it.  Hook’s behavior at the very wend really bothered me.  Not just because no “work” was put into it, but because it was just dumb.  How do you go from feeling that bad about yourself, which was so great for him to finally really admit, to then just saying he’s worth saving?  I thought it was bad writing honestly.  Even if Cerberus torture was enough suffering, it was just such a fast turnaround, and to me, nothing really happened for him to change his mind, other than Liam moving on, and to me, that didn’t really correlate with Hook’s dilemma.

[RumplesGirl]

How do you go from feeling that bad about yourself, which was so great for him to finally really admit, to then just saying he’s worth saving?

For sure. It’s a pacing problem as well as a sticky moral one (in show at least). There was little in the way of transition.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

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