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It would be very very immoral if Regina has a happy ending. Killing is unexceptable no excuse but we can except it somehow because this is fiction, and second the timeline is set in medieval era (likely), third both Rumple and Regina were on the very high positions at that time. So of course if they have power, they can kill anyone that displeases them or even for no reason too. But killing your own blood father is unexceptable, unsympathetic, unforgivable and no way redeemable. Not to mention the reason she killed him is unreasonable too.
This is sad, because they potrayes her as a very interesting and funny character. The type that you don’t want to be killed or taking any consequences by their own crimes, even if it’s unforgivable. And I really love the EQ and I don’t want her to die but I would be very susprise and unsastisfy if she just gets away and lives through every horrible things she did without any serious consequences. I don’t and can’t except redeemable. Murdering your father is never ever redeemable.[adrotate group="5"]@medchen wrote:
I think Rumple chose power because he was scared. But I dont think it makes him worse. Its not important who is worse then the other. I think its more important if either can change or not.
I really like this idea; I think it is the key to understanding their characters. Rumple’s deeds stem from fear, while Regina’s deeds stem from anger.
Yes, Rumple chose power over Bae when he didn’t follow Bae into the vortex, but it wasn’t a case of choosing power purely for the sake of power (as say, King George, might have). Rather, we saw in that scene that Rumple was terrified and wanted his power to keep himself and Bae safe. We also saw how much he regretted that moment of weakness – immediately afterward and ever since. Furthermore, we saw in “The Return” last year that he was now willing to give up his power when he thought August was Bae (“I chose it once. Now I choose you”). But until he finds Bae, his guilt will continue to drive him to whatever amoral action he finds necessary to effect that reunion.
Just as Rumple’s course was set by that one moment in which he lost Bae, Regina’s was set by the moment in which she saw Cora kill Daniel. It’s pretty clear something in Regina snapped at that moment and she couldn’t deal with such a terrible shock in a fully rational way. She loved Daniel, but she also loved her mother despite Cora’s evil. As much as she hated Cora’s actions, she couldn’t bring herself to hate her mother, so she wound up focusing all of that pain and anger on the innocent Snow White.
So Rumple needs to learn courage and Regina needs to learn forgiveness. Whether or not either can succeed in their quest should be fascinating to watch.
@fairy dust wrote:
I think Rumple is worse than Regina because when Regina was faced with the ultimate choice…Henry…or the curse…her power and control etc…she chose Henry and did the right thing. When Rumple was faced with the ultimate choice…he chose his magic, power and control and let Baelfire be sucked into the vortex alone. Having said that…I think that Cora is going to be worse than both of them because she was consistently abusive to her daughter. Rumple was faced with a split second decision and made the wrong one….Cora made it a lifestyle.
To add to my thoughts…Rumple purposefully pushed Regina into evil to benefit his own plan to get to our world. All she wanted was to bring Daniel back…Rumple arranged for her to overhear Jackson to set her up to bring Dr. Frank/Whale to our world and he set the whole thing up so that Daniel’s heart transplant would fail so that Regina would become hardened and revengeful inside. I think they both can change but I definitely think that Rumple is more evil than Regina because Rumple purposefully made Regina evil.
I still can’t say that Rumpel is worse just because he helped Regina become evil. Do we honestly believe that Regina never manipulated innocent people to fulfill her own desires? We’ve seen it numerous times. I honestly believe Rumpel and Regina are on equal playing fields right now.
And as far as Rumpel being worse because he chose power over Bae, Regina did the same thing. She sacrificed her father for the curse. They’ve both made selfish decisions in order to either hold onto their power or further their own goals.
Good point about Regina’s father. Bringing her father into the picture is definitely on equal footing with Rumple choosing to let Baelfire slip into the vortex and killing Baelfire’s mother, but I still hold out that it was Rumple’s very purposeful intention to mold Regina into a very evil woman, therefore he is more evil…also Henry confirms this when he is speaking to Emma about Rumple. He tells Emma that Mr. Gold is worse than his mom.
@TimeSpacer wrote:
Just as Rumple’s course was set by that one moment in which he lost Bae, Regina’s was set by the moment in which she saw Cora kill Daniel. It’s pretty clear something in Regina snapped at that moment and she couldn’t deal with such a terrible shock in a fully rational way. She loved Daniel, but she also loved her mother despite Cora’s evil. As much as she hated Cora’s actions, she couldn’t bring herself to hate her mother, so she wound up focusing all of that pain and anger on the innocent Snow White.
Just wanted to add that once Regina shoved Cora through the looking-glass, there was no way to take her anger out on her mother anymore, so she focused on Snow instead.
I think there is no way of deciding who is worst and honestly I think neither of them is truly redeemable. No matter what they are doing now, let’s not overlook the fact that they spent years hurting people apparently just for giggles.
Rumple manipulated everyone in FTL for ages, including Regina. While he did all this in the search for Baelfire and we are able to feel for him and his lost, a lot of the things he did where far from justified (like imprisoning Belle, or his apparent hobby of trading babies). Of course, he is The Dark One, so he is by nature evil. It really doesn’t look like they are trying to redeem him though, as he still always seems to have an agenda, but this leads me to Regina.
Regina said she wanted to redeem herself and we know she became evil because she lost Daniel and that is where her hatred for Snow White came from. I get that. Yet, she redeeming herself seems like a path for her dodging the consequences of all she’s done. During season 1 flash backs to FTL we see she hurt a lot of people, imprisoning Belle (again! poor girl has spent more time locked up than free.), separating Hansel and Grettel from their father, trapping Jefferson in Wonderland, killing hundreds, possibly thousands (and Graham!). And lets not forget the curse! Why is everybody in STB forgetting all the horrible things she has done? Why does she all of a sudden deserves a clean break just because Henry loves her (er, or something)?
Don’t get me wrong, I love both of these characters. They are nuanced and complicated villains, I just don’t understand why they are still allowed to walk around STB without answering for their past actions. I do realize capturing them would be a tad complicated given they are the most powerful people there and appear to be the only ones with magic, but it just seems like they are treating them as if nothing happened, in the last episode Henry was alone in the same room with Rumple and Regina, why would they allow that?!
@RosiHorror wrote:
I think there is no way of deciding who is worst and honestly I think neither of them is truly redeemable. No matter what they are doing now, let’s not overlook the fact that they spent years hurting people apparently just for giggles.
Rumple manipulated everyone in FTL for ages, including Regina. While he did all this in the search for Baelfire and we are able to feel for him and his lost, a lot of the things he did where far from justified (like imprisoning Belle, or his apparent hobby of trading babies). Of course, he is The Dark One, so he is by nature evil. It really doesn’t look like they are trying to redeem him though, as he still always seems to have an agenda, but this leads me to Regina.
Regina said she wanted to redeem herself and we know she became evil because she lost Daniel and that is where her hatred for Snow White came from. I get that. Yet, she redeeming herself seems like a path for her dodging the consequences of all she’s done. During season 1 flash backs to FTL we see she hurt a lot of people, imprisoning Belle (again! poor girl has spent more time locked up than free.), separating Hansel and Grettel from their father, trapping Jefferson in Wonderland, killing hundreds, possibly thousands (and Graham!). And lets not forget the curse! Why is everybody in STB forgetting all the horrible things she has done? Why does she all of a sudden deserves a clean break just because Henry loves her (er, or something)?
Don’t get me wrong, I love both of these characters. They are nuanced and complicated villains, I just don’t understand why they are still allowed to walk around STB without answering for their past actions. I do realize capturing them would be a tad complicated given they are the most powerful people there and appear to be the only ones with magic, but it just seems like they are treating them as if nothing happened, in the last episode Henry was alone in the same room with Rumple and Regina, why would they allow that?!
That’s the question, isn’t it: punish or forgive? By all of this world’s laws, they should be locked up for the rest of their lives (a considerably long time for Rumpel), but I believe both Regina and Rumpel are legitimately trying to be better people, so I’m leaning more towards the ‘forgive’ side. I’m not saying everything should just be forgotten, but maybe they still have a chance to find some small amount of happiness.
As for your last sentence, I don’t think it was that bad that Henry was alone with Regina and Rumpel. If I had to choose one person in all of Storybrooke who would never, ever hurt Henry, or let him be hurt by someone else, it would be Regina. And Rumpel hasn’t been anything but pleasant to Henry before, no matter his feelings toward Regina. I think Henry brings out the dad in him.
Yes, but it is not just about punishing of forgiving. For as much as Regina is trying to be better for Henry, she is yet to express any kind of regret for all she’s done, and as I said before, it is a long list. I’m not saying she should be locked up without being given a chance, I’m just saying that everything she did can’t just be erase by her not doing anything else. She has to actually act and show that she is on the side of good, so far she hasn’t done that. She is not helping Charming bring his family back, she is not helping the town in any way. So it really comes down to her fighting her nature, not just not using magic, but fighting her selfishness. All she’s done, since loosing Daniel has been self serving, she thinks of nothing but herself. Henry might be that change for her, that is true, but what happens when Emma comes back, when Henry has his real mother back. I venture say she might not be too happy with that and would probably go back to her old ways.
As for Rumple, I don’t really think he is trying to be better in any way. He is still working just for himself, all he wants is to break the curse so he can go look for Baelfire. With Rumple it would be even harder, because even when he loves Belle, I think they’ve shown he won’t change just for her. He has no true motivation to be good. Though, full disclosure, I don’t really want Rumple to be redeemed, I think that would kill the fun in the character, so that might be influencing my opinion here 😀
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