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Alright…overload with response on page ten, so I’ll do the highlights.
1. First and Foremost! The Kids and Gingerbread Lady
Much like Rumple, Regina can offer a deal that many couldn’t refuse. The kids as you all say, have a choice. and thereby granting them the right to say no. Now Regina never killed children, not even in the massacre did I see a child, and further proof is when Regina let Hansel and Gretel go, and then later their father. Even after insulting her, she still let them go because she has a soft spot for kids. So the Kids Death isn’t Regina’s entire fault because they still had a right to say no.
1. The kids didn’t have a choice especially Hansel and Gretel. If they wanted to see their father again they had to help Regina.
2. Regina didn’t just let Hansel and Gretel go. She poofed them to the infinite forest. Something which we later find out is impossible to get out of unless you have magic. Hansel and Gretel didn’t have magic.
2. The Ruler
As far as we’ve seen…the only people Regina has executed were those helping Snow White. And c’mon…even Regina said “You mean to tell me she’s lived here and not one of you saw her” and as tiny as that village was, someone saw Bandit Snow, but their devotion to Snow White led them to their deaths.
And as long as a kingdom is flourishing, the King or Queen is doing a good job. Long as you don’t associate with Snow, or outright disrespect her, you were safe from the Queen’s wrath. And there’s no proof of Regina killing a plain innocent in the streets just for walking. The people may have lived in fear, but they still had somewhat good lives….long as you don’t cross the Queen.
The kingdom was flourishing before Regina got there. Regina just maintained it. Unless she royally screwed up and other kingdoms decided to cut off trade with her, the kingdom would continue to flourish without Regina as ruler. The kingdom’s financial stability did not come about because of Regina.
3. Belle
I think Regina locking away Belle was personal payback for Rumple, and I still don’t understand why the man who kicked Belle out got so upset. Like dude, you kicked her out, I just took her in. When he kicked Belle out, she was at the mercy of the Queen.
You don’t understand why Rumple got so upset? Did you miss the part where Regina LIED and told him how Belle was tortured to the point where she took her own life all because of her association with him? Rumple loved Belle and Regina knew it. He kicked Belle out because he needed his power to find Bae and thought Belle had been sent by Regina to trick him. However, he obviously regretted it and would’ve have taken Belle back in on her return had Regina not kidnapped her. See the “so she needs a home?” scene.
4. Hearts
No proof whatsoever that shows Regina took the hearts of her guards…it may just be possible that they’re loyal like that.
Some of them probably were, but Regina has an awful lot of hearts there. A whole army’s worth in fact……
5. Rumple Vengence
This is exactly what Regina meant when she stopped Rumple from killing Zelena! The only person in the group who sees the cycle of vengeance, and she tried to stop it. And Regina did have a point when she said “who haven’t we killed to get what we want.” But Rumple, being Rumple…he has to have his vengeance and kills Zelena anyway. Regina has somewhat of a right for her vengeance because not only did she try to stop the cycle, but Rumple made it seem as if Zelena would rather die than have anything to do with them. That’s a bad blow to brush off, so in some aspect, Regina has a right to her vengeance. Not to mention this whole Marian thing wouldn’t have happened if Rumple had just “let it go.”
If Regina tried to stop the cycle of vengeance, then going after Rumple would only be her continuing it. Regina needs to be the “better” person and not seek revenge on Rumple. If Regina has a right to her vengeance than Rumple equally had a right to his.
6. Elsa
It’s not being a villain when someone locked you up for years in an urn. It’s called payback.
We don’t know how Elsa got into the urn, why she was in the urn, etc. All we know is that Rumple had possession of the urn. That doesn’t mean he put Elsa in there. Rumple could’ve traded for it, like the Wizard traded for magical items.
[adrotate group="5"]All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixYet none of you still answered my question…where were her options?
In S1…Regina knew the threat to her curse, and the consequences should it ever be broken. You don’t just sit back and wait for your own downfall, especially when you discover that the man who built the curse has double crossed you, and leaving you to the wolves to take the fall for both you and his part.
Ironically, it’s Regina trying to prevent the curse from being broken that led to it being broken. If Regina hadn’t given Emma the apple turnover, Emma would have left without Henry. But by inadvertently poisoning Henry, Emma believed and was able to break the curse with true love’s kiss.
In S2….the curse broke, and the Charmings did save Regina, but only cause of Henry. Had it not been for him, they’d have left her to die. And once again…Regina was redeeming herself! She actually didn’t have to help David get his family back, and keep Henry to herself, but she decided not to. And it was Rumpelstilskin who said, to heck with it, he didn’t care if Snow and Emma died…he just wanted to make sure Cora wouldn’t come back. So Regina did fix her momentary wrong by absorbing ALL of the thunder in that well, which seemed pretty painful, and rescued her former nemesis. Then you don’t even get invited to the celebratory of the people you saved! But when you get there, you’re ignored… Then you are accused of killing your own therapist by people who took the memories of a DOG before they checked your own. Later on, Rumple convinces Snow to kill Cora, and the Charmings plan to, well technically Kidnap Henry(because Regina still has legal custody of Henry) from Regina and take him to a land that he knows absolutely nothing about.
It was Regina who put Rumple into that line of thinking of stopping Cora coming through by any means necessary by reminding him that now he had Belle, he had a weakness. Regina would have gone through with the well plan had Henry not showed up and made her change her mind.
Season 2 Henry irritated me because of his treatment of Regina and the constant blowing hot and cold towards her. He needed to make up his mind and stick to it, not dangle himself as a reward towards her then take it away once she’s done what he wanted. Also Snowing were a bit too quick to jump to the conclusion that Regina had killed Archie, then because Emma disagreed, suddenly it must’ve been Rumple. The Charming’s were in the wrong on that one because it never seemed to cross their minds that SOMEONE ELSE could have done it and FRAMED Regina/Rumple.
I’m not taking away her responsibilities, I’m just stating the facts that everything is not black and white about the situation. That everyone had a hand in Regina’s backslide, and even the formation of the Evil Queen. And heck I might as well say, and I apologize if it upsets some of you, but for being a unborn baby picked to be created into a monster by the darkest man in the realm….yeah…Regina was a victim.
Every one may have played a factor in Regina’s backslide, but you know what? SO DID REGINA. Regina is a grown woman able to make her own choices. She’d be a victim all her life if she wasn’t held to account for her own actions.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix4. Funny how we can twist things to make it seem one way instead of what was originally implied.
But Rumple kicking Belle out…that still stands. And really, Regina saved Belle’s life because less we forget, Hook was going to kill her. Though a chess piece, it was her wildcard in case she ever needed to use it. Which means she could have used it at any second in Cursed S1, but apparently Belle was a wildcard Regina was holding for dire dire dire dire dire times.Belle only needed saving from Hook because Regina had her locked up. Had Belle not been there, Hook wouldn’t have been able to nearly kill her.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixOkay…to put things into simpler terms.
Everything that happened after Regina kicked Tinkerbelle out, is where I’d begin the “Regina made her own choices”. When she slaughtered the village, bad move. When she so called tricked Hansel and Gretel, she did warn them, and they could have said no, could have been handled a little different. And the whole waging war against Snow White, I really don’t know because there were so many instances where she could have just killed Snow White or Charming and she didn’t….I think somewhere Regina liked the “Tom and Jerry” game she was playing with them. Every Evil thing Regina did after the Tinkerbelle Fiasco, I will admit that falls on her shoulders, but some of the responsibility doesn’t belong to her, it belongs to the people who morphed her. I’d say Regina got about 75% of that responsibility, but those who had a hand in creating the Evil Queen in the first place deserve at least 25%. A la Cora, Henry Sr., Rumple, and Snow White.
Now everything that happened before Regina kicked Tinkerbelle out, that was not of Regina’s COMPLETE decisions. Because as I said, had Cora been a better mother, none of this would have happened. Had Snow White kept her secret none of this would have happened. And had Rumplestilskin never encountered Regina on that road leaving King Leopold’s castle, none of this would have happened. So as far as responsibility goes, the outside forces deserve their 75% for pushing her in that direction, and Regina deserves 25% for actually giving up, and falling from grace.
Now…I’ve a feeling we’re going to get a Young Regina episode to fill in another blank. Like what happened between the point between Regina crushing that Gypsy’s heart, and her just stop attending Rumple’s lessons. I have a head cannon that involves Elsa, Regina, and Rumple, and whatever accident happened, I think it freaked Regina out of wanting to learn anything else.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Cora was the one that started Regina on her road to darkness by tricking Snow into telling her about Daniel (though it was implied in a later episode that Cora knew about Regina and Daniel before Snow said anything which implies that Cora deliberately set Snow up to be the target of Regina’s ire), killing Daniel, accepting Leopold’s proposal on Regina’s behalf (So Cora made Regina marry her former fiancé. Cora has issues) and killing Daniel.
Snow was tricked into telling a secret by Cora. Whilst Snow would know what a secret was, I think she would’ve been given the talk that there are good/bad secrets and that bad secrets shouldn’t be kept.
Rumple gave Regina a choice to learn magic or run away. However he had set it up so that she had the taste for magic which would’ve biased her choice.
Henry Sr did nothing to help Regina against Cora so perhaps the real culprits for Regina’s descent into darkness are Regina’s parents. However Regina still played her part along with Rumple and Snow. Cora was just the one that set Regina on her path.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixCora was the one that started Regina on her road to darkness by tricking Snow into telling her about Daniel (though it was implied in a later episode that Cora knew about Regina and Daniel before Snow said anything which implies that Cora deliberately set Snow up to be the target of Regina’s ire), killing Daniel, accepting Leopold’s proposal on Regina’s behalf (So Cora made Regina marry her former fiancé. Cora has issues) and killing Daniel. Snow was tricked into telling a secret by Cora. Whilst Snow would know what a secret was, I think she would’ve been given the talk that there are good/bad secrets and that bad secrets shouldn’t be kept. Rumple gave Regina a choice to learn magic or run away. However he had set it up so that she had the taste for magic which would’ve biased her choice. Henry Sr did nothing to help Regina against Cora so perhaps the real culprits for Regina’s descent into darkness are Regina’s parents. However Regina still played her part along with Rumple and Snow. Cora was just the one that set Regina on her path.
Now this, I will mostly agree with!
Cora and Henry Sr. were really the ones who set Regina off onto that path of darkness, but Daniel kept her from going down the road. And I fully agree that Cora has serious issues marrying her daughter off to her ex. But I do not think Cora knew about Daniel and Regina, but she did know that her daughter would do anything to have horseback riding lessons(secretly seeing Daniel), and Cora set the whole Rescue Snow up, but I don’t believe she knew about StableQueen.
However she knew that Regina was keeping something from her, and she knew how naive Snow White was to tell her anything. Because let’s face it…Snow White can’t hold a secret to save her life, a la the Neal being alive secret being blurted out. Secrets were never Snow’s strong suit.
Henry Sr not defending Regina from Cora’s physical/emotional/mental abuse is what set her on the road to darkness, but Snow White telling StableQueen secret, and Rumplestilskin led her down it. As I said, he didn’t have to confront Regina on that path, and give her any option…so he pursuing her, he began leading her down the pathway to darkness, and any obstacle he saw that could possibly draw Regina back to the side of good, Rumple saw to that it was diminished.
But in reality, so much could have been avoided if Henry Sr. had man up and put his foot down.
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
Because let’s face it…Snow White can’t hold a secret to save her life, a la the Neal being alive secret being blurted out. Secrets were never Snow’s strong suit.
This I completely agree with. Snow in Neverland annoyed me. Charming and Hook agreed to verify the truth in Pan’s info about Neal and then tell Emma whereas Snow just blurted it out and was potentially giving Emma false hope. Snow revealing her secret in the echo cave was just awful to Emma.
When Emma and Regina told Grumpy the fake secret knowing it would lure out Zelena, they should’ve told Snow instead, Zelena would’ve been there much faster.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixBecause let’s face it…Snow White can’t hold a secret to save her life, a la the Neal being alive secret being blurted out. Secrets were never Snow’s strong suit.
This I completely agree with. Snow in Neverland annoyed me. Charming and Hook agreed to verify the truth in Pan’s info about Neal and then tell Emma whereas Snow just blurted it out and was potentially giving Emma false hope. Snow revealing her secret in the echo cave was just awful to Emma. When Emma and Regina told Grumpy the fake secret knowing it would lure out Zelena, they should’ve told Snow instead, Zelena would’ve been there much faster.
High Five to That!
"If you go as far as you can see...you will then see enough to go even further." - Finn Balor
To me Regina is 100% responsible for her acts. She could have stopped. She could have made other choices. No one held a gun to her head.
Yes, Rumple manipulated her and purposely corrupted her. He is absolutely responsible for that since his goal was to make her evil. So I also hold him responsible for creating and unleashing a monster. To me, he showed depraved indifference to all her victims and that makes him guilty without taking away any of Regina’s responsibility for her acts.
I don’t excuse Regina because of Rumple’s manipulation, but I also don’t excuse Rumple because Regina had a choice. They both knew the consequences of their acts and got exactly what they wanted. Both are at fault. It’s a little weird because to me it’s not like they split blame — one being X% responsible and the other 100-X responsible. They are 100% responsible for their actions. It cumulative, not overlapping.
Keeper of Hook and Emma's smoldering first kiss, a certain Pirate's sauciness, the Evil Queen's snarkiness, Grumpy's gruffness and a drop of true love to make it all go down smooth.
Screwball has an essay that may be of interest:
http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/58763930734/causality-in-ouat-or-why-rumple-isnt#notes
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of Felix
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