- This topic has 45 replies, 8 voices, and was last updated 7 years, 5 months ago by
.
-
Posts
-
Women especially seem to have their worth measured through their parenthood. It’s archaic and slightly misogynistic.
Wow! This is because if you CHOOSE to become a parent whether you are male or female you have a RESPONSIBILITY to that child to be the best parent you can be. That child does not get any choice in you as a parent they are put in that situation without any consult to them. I don’t think this is archaic or misogynistic. I also think male worth is measured (especially now days) by their parenthood abilities and guess what I have no problem with that. If you don’t want your worth measured by parenthood then you probably should not be a parent.
[adrotate group="5"]actually find it depressing how quickly people mete out judgement for Milah. Particularly because there are many, many women in the real world living under similar circumstances. I truly hope that people are more compassionate and understanding of the plights of these real women than they are to poor Milah.
Similar circumstance to what exactly? A woman who is neglectful of her child so she can go out drinking? A woman who hates her husband so much she verbally abuses and laughs at him in front of strangers? Do you mean her poverty? Do you mean the fact that she is married to someone with a physical disability? Please help me understand how poor little Milah is the victim here. Rumple is not abusive, he is not neglectful. He is poor but he does work and is trying to do his best to provide a steady and healthy environment for his child. I don’t know what I am supposed to be compassionate and understanding about. If she was being abused, yes I would have compassion and understand, if Rumple refused to work and laid home all day and refused to help out, yes I would be understanding. You want me to be understanding to a woman who is unhappy in her marriage? Well obviously she was and changed her fate which means she was neither powerless nor a victim of bad predark one Rumple?
I disagree. Emma was in jail and Snowing had no choice but to leave their daughter or let their entire family be cursed for possibly all eternity. Milan chose to leave her kid behind to chase a better life. She didn’t have to. That’s entirely different.
You’re assuming Milah had a choice. Sometimes people get into a very dark place mentally, where they literally cannot see alternatives. This is why people commit suicide. Milah didn’t commit suicide, she ran away, but I believe her actions stemmed from the same dark place of hopelessness. In ‘The Crocodile’, she says to Rumple
“This isn’t a life. Not for me. Why can’t we just leave?”
That first sentence in particular is a major red flag for me. These are the sorts of phrases people used when they are seriously depressed – “This isn’t living”, “Life isn’t worth living”, “My life is pointless”. Anyone who has experienced serious depression can attest that it will drive you to doing things which can be hurtful to your loved ones.
What Rumpel did was also bad but he spent centuries trying to get back to Bae.
Well, how fortunate for Rumple that he had those centuries. So lucky that his life wasn’t cut short by murder, like he did to Milah.
I mean let’s pretend Milan was a real life woman in a real relationship where Rump was actually physically and emotionally abusive. Imagine if she had the chance to escape (with her child) but just booked it out of there alone.
This is a false analogy. It doesn’t make sense to compare leaving a child with a loving parent to leaving a child with an abusive parent.
For me it seems like Milah had moved out and moved on toward a new life with no regard for her child. And given the connection between a mother and her child that does seem way worse than killing someone you have no connection to at all. I’m not saying she can’t be forgiven but at that point it doesn’t seem like she really feeling bad about what she did.
First of all, I disagree that child abandonment, as bad as it is, is remotely in the same moral league as mass murder!!
But, moving on….there are multiple instances of her stating that she does in fact, feel bad.
1) 2X4 – ship scene.
Rumple: “You left him!”
Milah: “And there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t feel sorry about that.”
2) 2X22 – JR
Bae: “She abandoned me.”
Hook: “Not a single day went by that your mother didn’t regret leaving you Baelfire. We talked about going back for you when you were old enough.”
3) 5X14 – boat scene
Milah: “My unfinished business was never Killian. It’s Baelfire, our son. I should have been there for him.”
Milah (a few moments later): “…so I can see him and I can say to him, ‘Son, I’m sorry for everything.'”
Does she deserve to die? Well I wouldn’t want many mothers like her walking around.
I agree that situations like theirs should be minimized. But I would suggest that shaming parents and judging them as deserving of the death penalty is hardly the way to go. I advocate cultural change, social support, education and family planning resources.
I think one of the big exciting potentials and then disappointments of OUAT for me is how the show has dealt with the intersection of gender and class. The source material often deals with socioeconomic hierarchies very explicitly, especially when the fairytales aren’t about “princes” and “princesses” (which is usually what Disney gravitates towards), but about “common” folk. OUAT has at times tried to tackle class directly — Rumple’s story is, in a lot of ways, a story about class and masculinity — at least that’s how I read his DO “genesis” backstory. And it’s actually done fairly well — it is complex and compelling and ambivalent (for OUAT), which makes for satisfying storytelling. But when the intersections of class & femininity are tackled – Cora’s story, and by extension, Regina’s, but also Milah’s story, and also to some extent Belle’s – this gets really hoary, heavy handed, and often extremely flat-footed. I suspect the reason behind it is that the show frames motherhood as a requirement for the full self-realization of its female characters. So while we all ooh and ahh over what a sweet dad Rumple is (and he is, and Bobby does this sort of role amazingly well), we (the audience) don’t usually extend the same credit to female protagonists, and even minor missteps are represented by the show as major violations. By extension, many of the female characters who fail to have children altogether (either naturally or by adoption) are either permanently villified (Cruella, Nimue) or infantilized (Guinevere, Emma until she ‘accepts’ Henry as her child). [With the exception of fairies, whose reproductive patterns are unknown] Yet, despite this apparent focus on motherhood/parenthood, OUAT is risibly unconcerned with the pragmatics of the process once the child “pops out”, in particular in the most recent seasons — baby Snowflake disappears into the ether for most of 3 seasons, children are aged up to actually make them interesting or important to plot (Gideon), Robyn is nothing more than an accessory to Zelena’s redemption etc. The show doesn’t actually focus on anything even remotely realistic in terms of the pragmatics of rearing children in its rather crazy world. Belle and the nuns just babysit whenever needed. In other words, the actual pragmatics and dilemmas of parenthood, and its intersection with, say, class and gender — outside of the grand dramatic gestures of rescue and abandonment — don’t interest OUAT in the slightest. But this is totally unsurprising: this is a Hollywood product, after all, and Hollywood is itself the product of a particular culture/mentality.
Totally agree with all of this!
I will stand alone in my opinion about Milah. There has always been something about her that urks me. She did have a choice.
but I believe her actions stemmed from the same dark place of hopelessness.
But that’s my point. If her life is that terrible and that unbearable that it generates that kind of extreme hopelessness……then why leave a child behind to face it while you escape it? That doesn’t make sense to me. Even as I rewatch the scene where Rump confronts her right before he kills her, I feel more in tune with his feelings as opposed to hers.
It doesn’t make sense to compare leaving a child with a loving parent to leaving a child with an abusive parent.
I’m talking about the home life. Shes leaving her child in a negative environment. One so bad that she felt she had to run away from it. Its not like Milah could have been thinking “Oh, well Baelfire will have a good life, Rump will provide for him, and he will be happy.” She wasn’t. It’s selfish, what she did. Her regretting it doesn’t mean she didn’t have the choice. It just feels like shes putting her own needs above that of her child and I don’t think that’s a natural thing for a mother. So sure, she may have regretted it as said below:
Rumple: “You left him!” Milah: “And there’s not a day that goes by that I don’t feel sorry about that.”
But for the next, what? Like 12 years she sure as heck wasn’t steering that boat back to actually do anything about it. For all she knew, Bae could have been starving dead in a dirty shack while she was living a pirates life. Or worse, torn to pieces in the Ogre’s war. These were both very real possibilities at the time she left. Milah abandoned him. Milah condemned him to a terrible life knowingly and willingly. In the words of Rumpel: Sorry isn’t enough.
They can claim they talked about coming back all they like. But Baelfire was a teenager or preteen and they still hadn’t resurfaced so far as we know.
The more I think about this situation, the more it gets me heated. Milah really does just tick me off. She’s entirely in the wrong and telling me woeful stories about how she felt doesn’t change that. I would understand and perhaps empathize more if we had more backstory and scenes, but still.
All this I’m talking about in the context of the show nand not in real life though where I think there have been quite a few cases of parents who deserve the death penalty for things they’ve done or allowed to happen to their children, but also agree that there are things we should to do to offer aid, support, and help prevent parents from making bad decisions and all that good stuff. But this is OUAT and if Bae was my child, i’d have crushed Milah’s heart, swept up the ashes, made tea with it and forced Killian to watch as I drank it in front of him and made puns
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICActually I believe this Proves my point, Milah cared about Rumple when he could provide for her but became abusive and neglectful when he no longer could Provide for her.
No, it doesn’t prove your point. You’re twisting the situation to fit your POV. Rumple made the decision to disable himself and leave the front. He must have known his family would suffer repercussions. But he did it anyway. ANYONE would be angry if their spouse made a major decision that affected the family’s well being without consulting them. If they weren’t, they’d be a saint or a doormat. And no, being angry in this situation does not mean they are a selfish person who is simply resentful that their spouse can’t provide for them.
Also, I’m not advocating verbal abuse, but how else was Milah supposed to vent her frustrations exactly? Her life nosedived, and not because of anything she did. Also, Milah is a peasant, probably without much education, so I’m not surprised that her methods of self expression are limited and crude.
I see Milah as she was presented by the show. She was a mother who left her young child at home alone so she could go out drinking in a bar and flirt with men
I just rewatched the bar scene in 2X4. There was nothing in there to suggest that she left Bae at home alone. She could well have left him with Rumple. All we see is Rumple bringing Bae with him and asking him to wait outside. If you have any other evidence that she used to leave him at home alone, please share. Otherwise, it would seem that you are projecting your assumptions onto that scene. There is nothing in that scene that conclusively proves that she didn’t leave him in good care. Also, Milah looks completely chastised when Bae walks into the bar. She immediately gets up and walks him out. That reaction is pretty motherly, and shows that she does have feelings for her son. But you completely overlook that part in your comments.
Could be why Rumple ended up taking the dark one powers.
This is ridiculous. Rumple became the DO to save his son from being conscripted into the Ogre’s War. How exactly would Milah’s presence have changed this?
People were not about to die on the boat and yet she fails again to ask about Bae. And we do have repeated instances of Milah ignoring Bae becasue I do believe Milah was the one who left a very young Bae alone at home so she could go drinking and then again she left Bae to run off with a pirate which would also being ignoring Bae and his feelings.
Rumple was about to kill Hook the first scene. I admit, this isn’t the case in the second scene, but the situation is still highly tense. Rumple is obviously in a cold rage, and when the DO is mad, the potential for death is very high. I’ve said this before, and I’ll say it again, Milah doesn’t look great in this scene, but given the situation, I still don’t think it’s fair to vilify her for not asking immediately. Rumple brings up the subject quite soon, and she does express her regret. Again, apart from these two scenes, do you have any conclusive evidence that she used to ignore Bae?
Indeed, a recurring theme throughout OUAT is that evil is made and not born. So why should this not apply to Milah too?
I think that doesn’t work for minor characters like Milah; they function more as scenery and setting than as people. Real people are all more complicated than that, of course, but I’m not going to fill in the blanks on a character sheet if the showrunners haven’t.
Milah’s role on the show seems to be to cause strife through narcissism; she hasn’t been developed with the nuances that have made other narcissistic characters — Regina, for example — sympathetic and compelling to me.
Besides, we do have evidence that she probably did hard labour (hauling wood in ‘Devil’s Due), she was depressed (she drank, she left her family!), and we know she thought things would be better if they moved, but Rumple didn’t want to.
I don’t find that persuasive. Lots of people do hard work and don’t always get what they want, and they don’t act harmfully as a result. Many people drink to excess and behave irresponsibly, and depression isn’t always the cause.
We haven’t seen much of Milah’s environment and backstory, and what we have seen just seems ordinary and relatively comfortable though bland, not the stuff of tragic tales.
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
TheWatcher Participant I will stand alone in my opinion about Milah. There has always been something about her that urks me. She did have a choice. sciencevsmagic wrote: but I believe her actions stemmed from the same dark place of hopelessness. But that’s my point. If her life is that terrible and that unbearable that it generates that kind of extreme hopelessness……then why leave a child behind to face it while you escape it? That doesn’t make sense to me.
Because, when you’re in that dark place, you are incapable of being rational or unselfish. That is why depression is categorised as a mental illness.
Also, I think it’s fair to say that our discussion (between you and me) is drawing to a close. In your comments,
There has always been something about her that urks me.
Even as I rewatch the scene where Rump confronts her right before he kills her, I feel more in tune with his feelings as opposed to hers.
The more I think about this situation, the more it gets me heated. Milah really does just tick me off. She’s entirely in the wrong and telling me woeful stories about how she felt doesn’t change that.
But this is OUAT and if Bae was my child, i’d have crushed Milah’s heart, swept up the ashes, made tea with it and forced Killian to watch as I drank it in front of him and made puns
you’re pretty clear that you see things exclusively from Rumple and Bae’s perspective, and also that you have a great fondness for these two. You’re upfront in admitting that you have a strong bias against Milah. That’s fine. But it does mean that you are not capable of being objective when it comes to discussing evidence and interpretations of her character, which makes further discussions between us seem fruitless.
I don’t find that persuasive. Lots of people do hard work and don’t always get what they want, and they don’t act harmfully as a result. Many people drink to excess and behave irresponsibly, and depression isn’t always the cause. We haven’t seen much of Milah’s environment and backstory, and what we have seen just seems ordinary and relatively comfortable though bland, not the stuff of tragic tales.
You’re oversimplifying my argument. I refer you to my comments about depression in other posts. Also – you think being a social outcast in a feudal society is “relatively comfortable”?!! If you’re serious, then I would suggest that you have no idea how stressful this situation can be! Screwball’s essay gives good descriptions about what this might actually mean from a practical perspective. Also, humans are social creatures. Evolutionary speaking, if you were excluded from your tribe, you were as good as dead. So, the brain developed to respond to rejection with a flight or fight response. This is why any slight can hurt us. Rejection from an entire community over a prolonged period of time will raise this stress response exponentially, becoming a huge risk factor for mental illness. I can assure you, there is nothing remotely comfortable about it!
Also – you think being a social outcast in a feudal society is “relatively comfortable”?!!
Food, clothing, house, family, physical health — that’s what I meant by comfortable. The “relatively” part was recognition that her situation wasn’t perfect, just pretty good.
I really don’t think that the show has given us reason to think that Milah was suffering from depression as opposed to some other reason for her behaviour. When I criticize Milah, I’m not criticizing depression, just going with the broadcasts and not adding detail.
I get the impression that you know someone with depression who may have thought or done some of the things Milah did. Depression and other forms of mental illness are terrible burdens that real people have to bear.
TV drama can deal with this topic very powerfully, like in the van Gogh episode of Doctor Who. I just don’t see it in OUAT’s Milah episodes.
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
The topic ‘Rumple and Milah’ is closed to new replies.