Rumple and Milah

[sciencevsmagic]

Food, clothing, house, family, physical health — that’s what I meant by comfortable. The “relatively” part was recognition that her situation wasn’t perfect, just pretty good.

I’m still not on board with this. We don’t know that they didn’t go hungry or cold. I suspect being the town reject impacts on your finances, and they weren’t exactly well off to begin with. Also, comfort extends far beyond the physical. Being accepted by your peers is not just nice, it’s a need. As for her family, well, she and Rumple didn’t seem to understand each other did they? If that’s the case then I don’t think her family is a significant protective factor for her.

I really don’t think that the show has given us reason to think that Milah was suffering from depression as opposed to some other reason for her behaviour. When I criticize Milah, I’m not criticizing depression, just going with the broadcasts and not adding detail.

I see it in her actions, and in her line, “This isn’t living.” Milah is a minor character, but I think they throw in small but powerful details here and there to paint a picture of what she was going through. I see it, you don’t – it depends on which aspects of the show you are interested in. As you can tell, I am interested in gender politics, class dynamics and the emotional drivers behind people’s actions.

I get the impression that you know someone with depression who may have thought or done some of the things Milah did. Depression and other forms of mental illness are terrible burdens that real people have to bear.

Not exactly. I just have some knowledge of emotional drivers behind behaviour. It’s a complicated and fascinating topic. The main thing I have learned is that common inappropriate behaviours (alcoholism, gambling, cheating and many, many others) are not rational, they are often driven by some form of emotional pain. Most people do not realise this, and hence, are prone to condemning, seeing people who engage in such things as having a character flaw. The reality is more complicated.

[sciencevsmagic]

 

Wow! This is because if you CHOOSE to become a parent whether you are male or female you have a RESPONSIBILITY to that child to be the best parent you can be. That child does not get any choice in you as a parent they are put in that situation without any consult to them.  I don’t think this is archaic or misogynistic.  I also think male worth is measured (especially now days) by their parenthood abilities and guess what I have no problem with that.  If you don’t want your worth measured by parenthood then you probably should not be a parent.

Not necessarily, and I’m not talking about Rumple and Milah anymore. What about children conceived via rape? Even in less extreme circumstances, in most societies, getting married and having kids is the most socially acceptable life  path. The culture exerts a lot of pressure on individuals to conform to this course, and if they don’t, they feel the sting of judgement. This is no longer the case in many Western countries, but it used to be until not so long ago. It is most definitely the case in many other parts of the world. Many people, especially older generations, would tell you that they had kids simply because it was what was expected of them.

I know children’s well-being is important, and I’m hardly advocating that it be ignored. My point is that parenthood is complicated. Parents don’t always conceive children in a fully informed and autonomous manner, and when raising children, they make all sorts of mistakes. They’re human.

We are both advocating good things for children. But what I am saying is that trying to understand, rather than judge parents’ actions is better than condemning them to fire and brimstone. You on the other hand, seem to believe that any parent who hurts their child automatically becomes a worthless human being.

Similar circumstance to what exactly?  A woman who is neglectful of her child so she can go out drinking?  A woman who hates her husband so much she verbally abuses and laughs at him in front of strangers?   Do you mean her poverty? Do you mean the fact that she is married to someone with a physical disability?  Please help me understand how poor little Milah is the victim here.  Rumple is not abusive, he is not neglectful.  He is poor but he does work and is trying to do his best to provide a steady and healthy environment for his child. I don’t know what I am supposed to be compassionate and understanding about.  If she was being abused, yes I would have compassion and understand, if Rumple refused to work and laid home all day and refused to help out, yes I would be understanding.  You want me to be understanding to a woman who is unhappy in her marriage? Well obviously she was and changed her fate which means she was neither powerless nor a victim of bad predark one Rumple?

Well, let’s see…

A woman who is an outcast in a small, rural community. A woman who is severely socioeconomically disadvantaged. A woman with a small child and a disabled husband. A woman struggling with all three of the above. Your mockery indicates that you simply do not perceive the difficulties experienced by women in these situations. Domestic abuse is not the only thing that can can make one’s life miserable.

I would suggest that you learn a little about the stresses the above scenarios can inflict. Screwball Ninja’s essay http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/57657612406/milah-the-curse-of-poverty-essay-in-6-parts is a good place to start, or you can dig deeper. But until you actually understand how a life like this can wear someone down, both physically and emotionally, our discussion needs to be put on hold. Because this is one of the most crucial points in any discussion regarding Milah.

[sciencevsmagic]

I get the impression that you know someone with depression who may have thought or done some of the things Milah did. Depression and other forms of mental illness are terrible burdens that real people have to bear.

This made me dig deeper about my indignation on behalf of Milah. Having seen the lives of women, and men, in developing countries first hand, I got to see what obstacles they faced. So it angers me when people dismiss the difficulties these people experience. Milah was treated like garbage on the show – murdered, and then tossed into the River of Souls. The sad truth is that underprivileged people are, all too often, treated in a similar fashion in the real world. I will admit that it doesn’t sit well with me when people, many of whom have privileges they don’t even realise they have, are so quick to pass judgement on the less fortunate without taking so much as a moment to try to understand or empathise.

[AKA]

Not necessarily, and I’m not talking about Rumple and Milah anymore. What about children conceived via rape?

That would be very unfortunate and does happen, I will say that when the victim of rape decides to keep the child she is CHOOSING to become a parent.  That child is in NO WAY at fault for how he/she is conceived and that parent still has the RESPONSIBILITY to be the best parent they can be.

My point is that parenthood is complicated. Parents don’t always conceive children in a fully informed and autonomous manner, and when raising children, they make all sorts of mistakes. They’re human.

No Doubt, but if you do CHOOSE to become a parent you need to go into knowing that the child is your responsibility.  You are going to make mistakes, and parents are human but to say that you are should not be judged by how you parent is ridiculous.  You are and you should understand that and want to be seen as a good parent.  And that judgement is not women’s alone believe me  men are judged just as much as woman are now days. No matter what the circumstances are every parent CHOSE to be a parent and they should take that choice seriously.  Because what happens when they don’t is the CHILD suffers which is not okay.   Now I say this in a Western Society way knowing that not all countries have it as lucky as we do, but I am not an expert or knowledgeable enough about their resources or cultures to make any kind of blanket statement.

You on the other hand, seem to believe that any parent who hurts their child automatically becomes a worthless human being.

I in no way shape or form stated any of these thoughts.  I simply said that your statement about women’s worth being about how they are parents is both archaic and misogynistic is wrong and then I gave you my reasons why.  It is never okay to hurt a child either emotionally or physically.  Do I understand how this happens? Yes. Do I demonize these parents forever? Depends on what they did, the circumstances they were in, and what they did to try and fix it. This is what I will say, is when this happens to a child it leaves scares (always emotionally and sometimes physically) and that is not okay.  A child does not get to choose their parents so it falls on the parents to be the best parent they can be.

Now to take this back to Milah.  Do I think she is EVIL, no I think she is a bad mom.  I re watched that scene also and we must see it in completely different contexts because what I saw was Bae sitting alone in the house and Rumple walking in with a basket of cloth like he just got home from work (market) and stating “Where is Mum, well she probably just lost track of time, grab your cloak, We’ll find her”  I don’t know how else you can interpret this scene other than Rumple expected to come home and find Bae with Milah and didn’t.  We also see from this scene that Rumple seems to know exactly where Milah is.  So did she leave her young child to go drinking in a bar, Yes she did. Is this the first time it has happened? Probably not.  That is incredibly neglectful and not a responsible choice.  Do I think this makes her Evil, NO. Do I understand, Maybe.  But pair that up with her then abandoning him (In other words CHOOSING not to be a parent anymore which most certainly left scars on both Rumple and Bae) and then never once asking about him and she is a pretty pathetic mom and I stand by what I said before Rumple and Bae were probably better off without her.

A woman who is an outcast in a small, rural community. A woman who is severely socioeconomically disadvantaged. A woman with a small child and a disabled husband. A woman struggling with all three of the above. Your mockery indicates that you simply do not perceive the difficulties experienced by women in these situations. Domestic abuse is not the only thing that can can make one’s life miserable.

Yes and just because your life is miserable does not give you an excuse to ABANDON your responsibilities and VERBALLY ABUSE your husband in front of a room full of people.  This is not OKAY. Is Milah’s life hard? Yes. Do I understand that? Yes. But so is a lot of people’s lives and they don’t just up and ABANDON what should be their NUMBER 1 PRIORITY, THEIR CHILD.

But until you actually understand how a life like this can wear someone down, both physically and emotionally, our discussion needs to be put on hold. Because this is one of the most crucial points in any discussion regarding Milah.

If it was hard on Milah it was also hard on Rumple and Bae, which she abandoned and abused. Now I am not saying that the circumstances she was in are her fault. Life happens and you have play with the hand your dealt with whether you like it or not. I am sure she is not happy that Rumple made the choice that he did, but he did and she can’t change that now.  She needs to deal with the situation she is in and not make it any worse by letting the whole town know Hey Yeah we are not a united front, please continue to abuse the provider of my family, because I hate him just as much as you do.  That is where we are disagreeing.  You want me to feel sorry for Milah because she is miserable and I would have if her actions did not affect anyone else.  Unfortunately they did, her CHOICES had CONSEQUENCES on both Rumple and Bae. She made those choices knowing they would have negative consequences for her son and CHOSE to do them anyway.  Now I will also address that you think that Milah is depressed and maybe self medicating with alcohol or contemplating suicide.  Depression is a mental illness that can’t be treated by throwing away your present life for a new one. If she had depression we should also seen signs of it with Hook and in the Underworld.  What she had was an unhappy life that was making her miserable, because of this she threw away that life for one she thought was better for her.  Now this doesn’t make her a “evil” person but it does make her a BAD mom because in the process of her misery she left Bae home alone to go drinking, she verbally abused her husband in front of a room full of people, and she abandoned both her husband and son so she could make herself a better life giving little to no thought about the emotional damage she was inflicting on both of them.

I agree we are probably not going to agree on this subject so maybe we should both just leave it here although you have given me things to think about and I hope I have done the same.

[sciencevsmagic]

I’m going to post a more detailed response tomorrow, but I need to ask, which scene are you talking about here? I don’t remember watching this.

I re watched that scene also and we must see it in completely different contexts because what I saw was Bae sitting alone in the house and Rumple walking in with a basket of cloth like he just got home from work (market) and stating “Where is Mum, well she probably just lost track of time, grab your cloak, We’ll find her”

[AKA]

I just rewatched the bar scene in 2X4. There was nothing in there to suggest that she left Bae at home alone. She could well have left him with Rumple. All we see is Rumple bringing Bae with him and asking him to wait outside.

This one or actually right before this scene which is when Rumple comes home to find Bae all alone sitting by the fire.

[RumplesGirl]

they function more as scenery and setting than as people.

I agree a lot with this. And it’s also why I tend to agree with what @sciencevsmagic and @AKA / @thewatcher are saying.  I don’t particularly like Milah, though I by no means loathe her, but I also know that’s because she was written to be unlikable in order to help us sympathize with Rumple, a lead character who would get six+ years of screen time and development. Milah’s story is presented as extremely broad and that’s on purpose.

I really don’t think that the show has given us reason to think that Milah was suffering from depression as opposed to some other reason for her behaviour

I think most of the OUAT characters are likely suffering from some sort of psychological ailment but it’s not intentional on the part of the writers (except for the universal abandonment issues that everyone seems to have). For the writers these issues just make their story move along, but they don’t bother to sit and parse out how these ailments and issues would actually affect the characters.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[nevermore]

This made me dig deeper about my indignation on behalf of Milah. Having seen the lives of women, and men, in developing countries first hand, I got to see what obstacles they faced. So it angers me when people dismiss the difficulties these people experience. Milah was treated like garbage on the show – murdered, and then tossed into the River of Souls. The sad truth is that underprivileged people are, all too often, treated in a similar fashion in the real world. I will admit that it doesn’t sit well with me when people, many of whom have privileges they don’t even realise they have, are so quick to pass judgement on the less fortunate without taking so much as a moment to try to understand or empathise.

I think there’s a broader conversation here about OUAT and the way in handles questions of “culture.” I get a bit twitchy when we try to apply our own conceptual categories (or diagnoses) to putatively different cultural or social milieus, whether we’re interpreting another society or historical period. OUAT generally relies on a kind of “common knowledge” (mostly based on pop culture tropes) to telegraph the details of EF’s social conditions – so it assumes we have a particular set of assumptions about medieval Europe, or feudal society, but the whole thing is kind of a mish-mashed construct, not a living breathing world. This becomes especially obvious with OUAT’s total inability to decide what the status of women in EF actually is. (Say, Mulan vs Cora, Snow vs Regina etc). Are they at the mercy of their social roles? Depends on what suits the plot. Does socioeconomic class overdetermine life opportunities? Same answer. Do they get to choose they mate? Well, they do, until they don’t. If we want to parse it apart, the whole thing about Milah and Rumple’s relationship is pretty unrealistic. “We can start a family?” Haha. They would have started a family in their late teens, and by this age (say they are supposed to be in their 30s, even if the actors are older), they should have either had 10 children, 6 of which died, and statistically speaking, Rumple should be a widower (the likelihood of death in childbirth and all that). And certainly, we wouldn’t be seeing Milah knocking it back at the bar because she’s pissed off at her loser husband — in a lot of ways, this is a middle-class, suburban drama transposed onto a fantasy setting.

I’m not sure what I’m trying to get at — perhaps that actually trying to evaluate Milah’s state of being is a thankless task because OUAT’s worldbuilding itself offers very little by way of firm cultural coordinates. It’s whatever’s needed for that week’s plot.

[sciencevsmagic]

OUAT generally relies on a kind of “common knowledge” (mostly based on pop culture tropes) to telegraph the details of EF’s social conditions – so it assumes we have a particular set of assumptions about medieval Europe, or feudal society, but the whole thing is kind of a mish-mashed construct, not a living breathing world.

The world building borders on the absurd.  They didn’t even bother to give the different classes distinct speech patterns. It’s so bizarre to watch Ruby and Snow (a peasant and princess) talking to each other with the same accent, vocabulary and mannerisms. Also, the peasants come across as way too genteel. I can’t think of a single culture where there is virtually no difference in the speech and mannerisms between the ruling and working classes!

I’m not sure what I’m trying to get at — perhaps that actually trying to evaluate Milah’s state of being is a thankless task because OUAT’s worldbuilding itself offers very little by way of firm cultural coordinates. It’s whatever’s needed for that week’s plot.

True to an extent, but I still believe we get enough nuggets to support my points about Milah’s hardships and lifestyle. My depression claim is the most tenuous; I see evidence for it (“This isn’t living”, wanting to move, engaging in reckless behaviour such as drinking with pirates) but I know it’s far from conclusive. My reasoning is this: we know Milah used to care about Rumple and there’s enough evidence that she cares about her son. She apologises later to Rumple, and feels remorse about Bae. These things indicate caring and a conscience. Sure, there exist people who are simply narcissistic and selfish, but the sociopath/psychopath label doesn’t seem to quite fit Milah. In my experience, people who are capable of feelings and have a conscience need to be driven to breaking point to run away from their families. They may have depression, they may not, but basically they are in a place where the only thing more unthinkable than leaving is staying – it’s a dark place to be in. Slapping a label of ‘selfish’ on such people is just too shallow. It may be what OUAT expects us to do with Milah, but OUAT has always been unrealistic in terms of character motivation.

I get a bit twitchy when we try to apply our own conceptual categories (or diagnoses) to putatively different cultural or social milieus, whether we’re interpreting another society or historical period.

I believe it’s impossible to avoid doing this, at least to a certain extent. Fiction, at least emotionally satisfying fiction, always provides some sort of commentary on its audience’s world. The audience in turn, evaluates the work using a set of beliefs shaped by their own culture. We do this with OUAT all the time. Think of all those discussions we have about healthy relationships, toxic masculinity, empowered women etc. In all of these, we are “applying our own conceptual categories to putatively different cultural mileus”. We don’t have a full picture of how relationships work in the EF, nor about gender roles. But that doesn’t stop us from drawing conclusions about right or wrong, healthy or toxic. So this analysis of Milah is no different to any of those conversations. I see no problem in seeing her as representative of the underprivileged have-nots of our world.

Sure, the show’s incomplete world-building makes this type of analysis messy, but I believe it provides value. OUAT may be clunky as heck, but it provides the raw material for participants to provide all sorts of interesting insights about our own culture and society.

[sciencevsmagic]

No Doubt, but if you do CHOOSE to become a parent you need to go into knowing that the child is your responsibility.  You are going to make mistakes, and parents are human but to say that you are should not be judged by how you parent is ridiculous.  You are and you should understand that and want to be seen as a good parent.  And that judgement is not women’s alone believe me  men are judged just as much as woman are now days.

My point was that people should not be judged EXCLUSIVELY on their parenting.

It is never okay to hurt a child either emotionally or physically.  Do I understand how this happens? Yes. Do I demonize these parents forever? Depends on what they did, the circumstances they were in, and what they did to try and fix it. This is what I will say, is when this happens to a child it leaves scares (always emotionally and sometimes physically) and that is not okay.  A child does not get to choose their parents so it falls on the parents to be the best parent they can be.

I don’t recall anyone saying child suffering is acceptable. What I’m saying is, to legitimise a child’s suffering does not necessitate throwing their parent under a bus. This brings us to the question of accountability. Parents are most definitely responsible for their child’s well being, but I wouldn’t say they are exclusively responsible. Parents are humans functioning in a particular environment, and that environment will affect their level of performance. This is where society, government and culture come into play. All of these things will affect a child’s well being because parents, as human beings, cannot be expected to continually overcome huge odds in order to fulfill their role. I mean, you can have the expectation, but it will be unrealistic and most people will fall short. So, either you pass judgement on all of these people as bad parents, or you work on improving the environment to help parents and children alike.

Now let’s get back to the Milah/Rumple/Bae situation. First of all, I notice that you’re very hard on Milah for verbally abusing Rumple, but you have not said one critical word about Rumple’s desertion, which was a big deal and had a significant adverse impact on Milah. I’m all for holding people accountable, but that should apply to everyone. Why are you not more critical of Rumple? This is a Rumple/Milah thread after all. What he did affected not only Milah, but Bae too. Bae got branded as the son of a coward. Their whole family became outcasts. It probably impacted their already limited financial situation.

This is what I will say: Milah made poor choices that hurt her family. Rumple also made poor choices that hurt his family. Both were responsible in part for their family problems. Both were also victims of circumstance, as was Bae. I think these statements are far more accurate and fair than your comments, in which you go on about Milah’s faults to the exclusion of all other factors.

If it was hard on Milah it was also hard on Rumple and Bae, which she abandoned and abused. Now I am not saying that the circumstances she was in are her fault. Life happens and you have play with the hand your dealt with whether you like it or not. I am sure she is not happy that Rumple made the choice that he did, but he did and she can’t change that now.  She needs to deal with the situation she is in and not make it any worse by letting the whole town know Hey Yeah we are not a united front, please continue to abuse the provider of my family, because I hate him just as much as you do.

I really do not like this. You seem to be saying, “Hey Milah! I don’t really understand how hard your life is, but I’m going to tell you that plenty of people have problems, so just deal with it. I know your husband made your family outcasts by making a decision without even consulting you, but you need to suck it up. You can’t change it now. So stop being mean to him and stop airing your dirty laundry in public! Swallow your anger, repress your frustration and get back to the business of being a good wife and mother.” I’m not going to elaborate on why I find this offensive. Instead, let’s change a few of the words around and see if you would be happy to dispense the same advice to a different character.

“Hey Rumple! Life happens and you have play with the hand your dealt with whether you like it or not. I am sure you are not happy that Milah made the choice that she did, but she did and you can’t change that now.  You need to deal with the situation you are in and not make it any worse.”

Depression is a mental illness that can’t be treated by throwing away your present life for a new one.

This is not how depression works. Telling  an individual that “you won’t feel better by throwing away your old life for a new one” might work on a robot, but not a human. Depression simply does not respond to that sort of logic.

If she had depression we should also seen signs of it with Hook and in the Underworld.

Not at all. Depression can come and go. She might not have had it at those times. Besides, signs of depression can be hard to spot and are not readily apparent in all contexts.

I agree we are probably not going to agree on this subject so maybe we should both just leave it here although you have given me things to think about and I hope I have done the same.

Probably not. I appreciate that you found it thought provoking. It’s been an intense discussion, and I didn’t expect to get as deeply involved as I did. I don’t expect anyone to like Milah. Nor do I expect her to be excused for her misdeeds. But I was triggered by some of the more outrageous comments that cast blame where it wasn’t warranted, completely dismissed the hardships of her lifestyle and essentially dehumanised her in a very harsh way. I found comments about her life such as

– It was actually fairly comfortable

– She had power over her own life and was  in no way a victim

– I don’t care about her hardships, she deserved to die

insulting to underprivileged people who are in similar situations to Milah. I can’t help but suspect that Milah gets so little sympathy because her problems are a result of poverty which the vast majority of the audience don’t seem to relate to very well. This is why there is a gulf (and also double standard) in the judgments that are applied to Milah versus those applied to other characters.

[Author]

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