Rumple and Milah

[AKA]

Parents are most definitely responsible for their child’s well being, but I wouldn’t say they are exclusively responsible. Parents are humans functioning in a particular environment, and that environment will affect their level of performance. This is where society, government and culture come into play.

Again  I am talking from a Western point of view but I disagree.  Does your environment play in this role? Yes but ultimately it is the parents responsibility to be the best parent they can be.  That does not mean they are perfect it means that they stick around, try hard, and use the tools that they have to give their child the best life they can.

I mean, you can have the expectation, but it will be unrealistic and most people will fall short. So, either you pass judgement on all of these people as bad parents, or you work on improving the environment to help parents and children alike.

Here again I am not disagreeing we are just looking at this from two different points.  You are looking at in from a societal point of view and I am looking at in from an individual point of view. You are looking at it from a person on the outside looking in and I am looking at it from someone in the inside looking out.

nsulting to underprivileged people who are in similar situations to Milah. I can’t help but suspect that Milah gets so little sympathy because her problems are a result of poverty which the vast majority of the audience don’t seem to relate to very well. This is why there is a gulf (and also double standard) in the judgments that are applied to Milah versus those applied to other characters.

You probably should not make this assumption as you don’t know me.  Maybe I am looking at this from someone who grew up in poverty and fought their way out.  Maybe I am looking at this from the point of view of someone who understands the struggles and the biases of small town living being in one of “those families” Maybe I understand all too well Milah’s situation and therefore I don’t agree with her scooting out on her child and giving up.  Maybe I see her as someone who should have stopped wining about her situation and tried to make the best of it, because in life you are dealt the hand you are dealt with and you do have to play that hand whether you want to or not.  It is wonderful that there are people out their who try to understand what it is like living like this, but they want to be sympathetic when what most people need is problem solving solutions and the idea that they actually do have some type of control and power over their own life even if that is only to make their children’s lives better than their own.  Milah failed at this because she wasn’t present to try. That is ultimately my problem with her.

 

This is not how depression works. Telling  an individual that “you won’t feel better by throwing away your old life for a new one” might work on a robot, but not a human. Depression simply does not respond to that sort of logic.

As I said before I am not sure she is depressed at least not in the clinical terms.   I think she has a hard life and may not like her life, but like I said before she might just be miserable because she does not like the situation she is in. I am quoting the DSM V here: Responses to a significant loss (e.g., bereavement, financial ruin, losses from a natural disaster, a serious medical illness or disability) may include the feelings of intense sadness, rumination about the loss, insomnia, poor appetite, and weight loss noted in Criterion A, which may resemble a depressive episode. Although such symptoms may be understandable or considered appropriate to the loss, the presence of a major depressive episode in addition to the normal response to a significant loss should also be carefully considered.

Now let’s get back to the Milah/Rumple/Bae situation. First of all, I notice that you’re very hard on Milah for verbally abusing Rumple, but you have not said one critical word about Rumple’s desertion, which was a big deal and had a significant adverse impact on Milah. I’m all for holding people accountable, but that should apply to everyone. Why are you not more critical of Rumple? This is a Rumple/Milah thread after all. What he did affected not only Milah, but Bae too. Bae got branded as the son of a coward. Their whole family became outcasts. It probably impacted their already limited financial situation.

You are right so if I look at the difference and you have to understand that I have a lot more information about Rumple’s life than I do Milah’s which is going to make my argument a little bias.  Rumple deserted the army.  Did this have a negative effect on Milah and Bae? Yes.  But let’s look at his options: He could stay and leave his son fatherless or he could desert and go home a coward.  He chose what he felt was the best option for his son.  You see that is the difference Rumple’s decision was based on not leaving his son fatherless.  He was not thinking of himself (no matter how the show Retconed this in season 5) he was thinking of his son and how important it was for him not to leave his son without a father.  Now when he let Bae fall through the portal that was all on Rumple.  It was a clear decision of him thinking about himself rather than his son.  It was selfish and self centered and it most certainly was not a move of a good parent. So like I said before do a “demonize him for this” No and why is because in the show we saw him spend the next couple hundred  of  years trying to fix his mistake.

Hey Rumple! Life happens and you have play with the hand your dealt with whether you like it or not. I am sure you are not happy that Milah made the choice that she did, but she did and you can’t change that now.  You need to deal with the situation you are in and not make it any worse.”

That Sounds Good.  This is completely true and I have absolutely no problem with it.  If you can’t change it you need to accept it, If you can change it you need to try to do so.  Don’t get me wrong everyone in life needs a shoulder to cry on now and then, they need a sounding board, someone to vent to, someone to just listen. They also need to not wallow in their problems if they have the means to try and make them better, now I am not talking about major depressive disorder, anxiety disorder, or any other psychological disorder which requires intense therapy.  I am talking about problems in our lives that we have power over and can change.  Even if Milah does not think she has any power in this situation, she does.  She is in control of being the best mom to Bae and working hard so his life can be better than hers, she is in  control of  how she treats her husband in front of the people he tries to sell his cloth to so they can’t see their abuse reinforced by his wife, she is in control of her decisions to not drink and instead of take care of her child.  Victor Frnakl has a outstanding book called “Man’s Search for Meaning” about the meaning of life under extreme circumstances that talks about this, finding the meaning of life under the most miserable conditions and understanding that we do have power even when we don’t think we do.

[sciencevsmagic]

Ok, your post is long and I may have to respond to it in pieces, but here goes…

Again  I am talking from a Western point of view but I disagree.  Does your environment play in this role? Yes but ultimately it is the parents responsibility to be the best parent they can be.  That does not mean they are perfect it means that they stick around, try hard, and use the tools that they have to give their child the best life they can.

But how can they be the best that they be if they are debilitated somehow by the environment? It can be either physical or mental. Let’s say a family’s water supply contains high levels of heavy metals. Over time, these may cause something like adrenal fatigue for a parent, until eventually, they cannot get out of bed to care for their child. Would you blame the parent for this? No, because the environment impaired their ability to function. How does this relate to Milah? I’m saying that her environment, especially being a social outcast, impaired her ability to be a good parent.

That Sounds Good.  This is completely true and I have absolutely no problem with it.  If you can’t change it you need to accept it, If you can change it you need to try to do so.

Huh! I’ve read this sort of philosophy in self help books. Personally, I find it preachy and ineffective. This is why I’d never dream of saying this to anyone. But I know that it works for some people, and you must be one of those people. Maybe it comes down to a difference in style.

Don’t get me wrong everyone in life needs a shoulder to cry on now and then, they need a sounding board, someone to vent to, someone to just listen. They also need to not wallow in their problems if they have the means to try and make them better, now I am not talking about major depressive disorder, anxiety disorder, or any other psychological disorder which requires intense therapy.  I am talking about problems in our lives that we have power over and can change.  Even if Milah does not think she has any power in this situation, she does.  She is in control of being the best mom to Bae and working hard so his life can be better than hers, she is in  control of  how she treats her husband in front of the people he tries to sell his cloth to so they can’t see their abuse reinforced by his wife, she is in control of her decisions to not drink and instead of take care of her child.  Victor Frnakl has a outstanding book called “Man’s Search for Meaning” about the meaning of life under extreme circumstances that talks about this, finding the meaning of life under the most miserable conditions and understanding that we do have power even when we don’t think we do.

When I talked of options for Milah, I meant options for making herself less miserable. It’s true that she can be a good mother or wife or start eating with her non-dominant hand. But none of these options make her less miserable. It’s like something Milah needs on a deep, fundamental level is missing. Society imposes the belief on us that a child’s happiness is should be necessary and sufficient for a parent’s happiness. Many parents will tell you that this is not the case. It is necessary, definitely necessary. Most parents cannot be happy if their child is not. But it is not sufficient. This is a key difference. Plenty of people need a something extra in addition to their child’s happiness in order to be happy themselves. It does not make them bad parents or bad people, it is just how they are. What that something is – well, that is different for everyone. It doesn’t have to be grand, and usually isn’t. Some need a little quiet time to themselves each day. Some need a friend to talk to once in a while. Others might need to feel like they have a purpose beyond their home life. Rumple seems to be one of the ones for whom their child’s happiness IS actually sufficient. Which is great for Rumple, but it doesn’t mean Milah is at fault for not being the same way.

So, returning to Milah’s choices…to make herself less miserable, I can only see two options for her:

1) Running away

2) Suicide

My point here is that she is not as empowered as you seem to be implying. If these are the only two choices available to someone to alleviate their suffering, then I’d definitely call them a victim of circumstance.

[AKA]

I was going to respond but it really is no use.  We are not going to see things the same way. The only thing I am going to say is this

So, returning to Milah’s choices…to make herself less miserable, I can only see two options for her: 1) Running away 2) Suicide

I guess she chose to run away which means by the way that she had the power and control to change her life.  Still does not make her a good mom.

[bibliophile]

Why all this fuss? Milah is a weakly drawn character with no redeeming qualities that I can recall. We’re meant to side with Rumple in regards to Milah and most do. That’s exactly what the writers were going for.

 

[sciencevsmagic]

You probably should not make this assumption as you don’t know me.  Maybe I am looking at this from someone who grew up in poverty and fought their way out.  Maybe I am looking at this from the point of view of someone who understands the struggles and the biases of small town living being in one of “those families”

Agreed, this assumption isn’t ideal. I made it because I was trying to make sense of some of the comments you and others made, which I couldn’t find any other explanation for. No offense intended.

Victor Frnakl has a outstanding book called “Man’s Search for Meaning” about the meaning of life under extreme circumstances that talks about this, finding the meaning of life under the most miserable conditions and understanding that we do have power even when we don’t think we do.

I haven’t read Frankl’s book, although I have heard of it. There are many books and techniques out there for coping with the difficulties of life and empowering oneself. But not everyone is educated with this information. Therefore, it is unfair to blame them when they fail to apply these principles in their own lives.

Since we’ve been talking in circles somewhat, I’m going to focus on depression for a bit. According to that DSM V quote, it can manifest as a response to a significant loss. In Milah’s case, she became a social outcast, which means she lost a significant amount of social support, so it fits with the definition. Let’s also look at her situation from the perspective of risk and protective factors.

A risk factor is defined as something that increases your likelihood of getting a disease or condition. A protective factor is the opposite. Each individual is different, so the there is variation, but below are some very common risk and protective factors. I’ve highlighted those that apply in Milah’s situation.

Risk factors

– Family history of mental illness

– Chronic physical or mental disorders

– Trauma

– Loss of a loved one

– Relationship stress

– Little or no social support

– Low socioeconomic status

– Being a member of the LGBTQ community

Protective factors

– A happy and stable childhood

– Close and positive relationships with family

– Supportive friends and community

– A sense of purpose

– Pursuing activities that give you joy

Looking at those lists, Milah has several confirmed risk factors and no confirmed protective factors. The lack of social support is a particularly big one. Not just lack, but ostracism in fact, as they were dishonoured. Have you watched or read ’13 Reasons Why’? It’s a nice illustration of the devastating impact being an outcast can have on the psyche. This Wikipedia article on social rejection is also a useful read.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_rejection 

As for behaviours, it’s difficult to say as we don’t see much of Milah. I believe there are signs (feeling that life is worthless, drinking, recklessness), but these are not conclusive. Also, you and others have stated that Milah doesn’t appear depressed. I presume what you meant is that her general demeanor doesn’t come across as particularly sad or lethargic. This is true. But I know from experience that this can be the case.

I used to sit next to this guy at work for many months. One day, he got promoted to a better job and left. Three weeks later, we learned that he’d committed suicide. Everyone was totally shocked. He’d always seemed fine – talking, getting animated about things he was interested in. At his funeral, I learned that he’d struggled with depression for a long time. I wondered afterwards if there  were signs I’d missed. But even now, I can’t think of anything beyond the fact that he had insomnia. So the moral of the story is that depression symptoms can be impossible to spot unless you can observe someone in an up close and personal manner.

Milah is a minor character, so we’ll never know conclusively whether or not she had depression. Ultimately, what you conclude is up to you. But I hope that  I’ve presented at least a reasonable case for why it might be so.

 

[sciencevsmagic]

Even though this discussion is over, I want to add one final thing – a link to Screwball’s essay about whether Rumple and Milah should have skipped town.

Should Rumple and Milah have moved to another village?

It needs to be in this thread because there is some thoughtful commentary on several of the issues brought up here.

[Author]

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