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To me, this was some seriously OOC for Bae.
We are literally debating whether it was more OOC for Bae or more OOC for the Dagger. This is what the show has come to. To be fair, the people who have wielded the dagger — except for Belle — have most been real stinkers. And Belle always makes catastrophic decisions, dagger or no, so she makes for a poor litmus test. Unless I’m misremembering something? I think the only thing that holds fairly tightly is that in-universe magic can “reset” your personality to ignore that you are “inherently evil” (or good, for that matter). This makes sense, it has to with the ideology of the show, which at least says that there is no such thing as “evil born” (whether it is actually consistent on this point is another issue). The questions this begs are: – a. Why did no one ever think of putting Rumple under some sort of memory spell? So many problems would be solved — he’d have no clue he’s the DO, and next thing you know, he’s paying his taxes and volunteering on the school board. -b. Shouldn’t the memory potion have “worn off” once Neal reached the world without magic
Wow that is a good question, maybe it works like a memory stone and he needs to drink more memory tea to remember, just kidding. This would explain why Hook didn’t act like a dark one until he was told he was one.
[adrotate group="5"]This would explain why Hook didn’t act like a dark one until he was told he was one.
Pretty sure you would find it odd if you didn’t need sleep, memories or no.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I think this issue is complex. I should note that, when reading everything below, remember that I am one of the biggest Nealfire fans on this sub.
When I first saw the hints of Bae making this decision, I grew upset. “He’s the good guy! He’s not supposed to give into darkness!” I mean, this is the guy who tried to convince Rumple to leave an entire world for the sake of giving up magic. This is the guy who, many years later, stopped Rumple from beating the Sheriff of Nottingham up with Lacey (hey, remember her? *crickets*).
But look at the time *between* those two incidents. After he was Baelfire, he was Neal. Neal was not the most moral figure. He gave into impulses (theft, lying, etc). Did he have good intentions for some? Sure. But he wasn’t perfect. As he grew older, he learned better.
Now look at the younger version of him. He was a teenager (which, remember, teens are hormonal) who watched his dad get insulted and himself get pushed. He was holding the weapon capable of ultimate evil in his hands. He was enraged, a feeling probably amplified from the dagger. He probably wasn’t realizing what he was saying at the time. When he returned to the cottage, he was still holding the dagger. As a result, he was probably still on the dagger’s high. Rumple saw that and wanted to take him out of it before it could get any further. He was a good kid who accidentally slid off the track. He wanted to put him back on it and absorb his sin himself.
I’m not saying that this story direction is okay. I’m not saying Bae’s reaction is completely IC. But I’m also not saying that it’s entirely OOC either.
Keeper of Thor’s Hammer, Will Scarlet’s Genie Bottle, Emma’s Gun, Emma and Henry’s Moment at the Castle, Cora, and the infamous Family Tree!
Sorry but this still doesn’t quite scan for me.
From this moment with Beowulf until the moment Bae leaves the EF, he is living inside Rumple’s house with the dagger, which apparently can exert some measure of influence on non-DO’s. He’s still a “hormonal” teenager with all those emotions of anger, sadness, pity, resentment and fear and moreover he’s watching Rumple get worse and worse, actually going out of his way to main and kill people–the maid, the snail man. But at no point does Baelfire take the dagger and order his father to stop or anything with the dagger. Because that’s who Bae was; he did not recklessly give into dark magic either because it was easy or because of some sort of influence from the One Ring (I mean Dagger)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I don’t recall the dagger ever exuding some kind of magical influence on those who have wielded it. Is that a thing? I know it did with the Dark Ones, but I don’t remember it doing so with others. Unless you all are just saying that power is addictive and I agree.
My thing, as I said in the SF thread, is less that he wanted to kill Beowolf and went through with it (I personally probably would have done it, but I’m a terrible person.) but that he feels no remorse and is almost diving head in, wanting to harm the bakers son, and basking in the power. That doesn’t seem like Bae at all.
I would have much rather preferred this to be the moment he gets a taste of dark magic, of what the power means, and that is what also helps to push him away from it. Once he calms down from the heat of the moment he takes a moment and realizes what he has done, what he has caused his father to do, what that dagger can cause him to do, and that really just pushes him away further in the “magic is bad” state of mind. This COULD have been done really well, and it was just a huge what the fudge moment.
Literally just me about the whole thing:
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICAlso, let´s not forget that that in S5 they also said neal was on a quest to destroy magic.
This was a retcon to make other characters look good or like i saw online other people saying, to make him as bad as other characters, there is no arguments for that, this also destroyed the only storyline that was still good in the show, that was Rumple and Bae and by doing that, sort of make all their epis, look like trash.
Also, Neal actions in our world were made because of need, you steal to eat, because you have no food, if was self defense, like THEWAtcher said, but i also agree with her in the sense,there is no past in the show saying about just because you have the dagger you get corrupted by it, like Belle on S4 showed, the only way this could work was with the villains, because they were corrupted already, so they are saying even before having the dagger, Bae was already a corrupt before that and no, a memory potion makes you forget, but your values, your instincts are still there, in fact if the dagger had that power, means that would still be calling Bae when they were at home and it would make Bae kill Rumple and became the dark one, not using the dark one to kill someone else.
The only thing that could amend this, was them revealing Bae was not bae at all and only someone pretending to be him, like the black fairy, which by the way, they wont, but would love to know why she didn´t tried to take Bae instead on Gideon?
Also, are you telling me, that this Bae with a dark soul, is the one without unfinished business, that went straight to heaven, bc he was such good person?
So let´s admit and stop trying to find reasons, like i said before this was done to make other characters look better than him and to say that he totally deserved to die and he was not the hero people say he was, this was OOC, this was a RETCON.
"I offended you with my opinion? Ha, you should hear the ones I keep to myself".
But at no point does Baelfire take the dagger and order his father to stop or anything with the dagger.
Yes, this. If they actually wanted to retcon the dagger into the One Ring, then fine — but they’d need to do a lot more work to make it plausible. Along the same lines, if the dagger is such a corrupting influence (presumably once’s you’ve held it and ordered a Dark One around with it), then how come Gideon just hands it back, no questions asked? Wouldn’t the logical reaction be “ooh, I got me a Dark One, lets go take out the Black Fairy now”? And why would Rumple give it out to Bae in the first place if it has such a horrible effect (unless, of course, he doesn’t know)?
They do have material to work with, both in-universe and in terms of folkloric tropes if they wanted to suggest that this sort of power is both literally and figuratively corrupting. It certainly would explain why no one tried to order the Dark One out of commission, and locked the dagger away — which, of course, has a lot of precedents in all sorts of fairy tales. They could have done such an interesting speculation on why the proverbial genie always ends up imprisoned in some lamp somewhere: that eventually someone somewhere grows a brain and realizes that this kind of power is bad news for everyone.
But my point is that if we all have to collectively do this much work to make this whole thing make any sense at all, they’re doing it wrong.
Oh man this is quite a dilemma. I think if you believe in the power of darkness and the power the dagger has on people, then this makes more sense. Especially for a young boy. In the beginning of the episode, and really throughout, Baelfire kept telling Rumple that he didn’t need the magic. It wasn’t until he started holding the dagger that he changed. So I get people who say that Baelfire as we knew him would never have done that…..but I’m not sure anyone of us expected Hook to try and kill the whole town when the darkness took him over. We’ve seen plenty of good people get corrupted by dark magic. It does remind me of Frodo and the ring at the end. And obviously what happened to Schmiegel turning into Gollum bc of the ring. So I think I can buy Baelfire instructing Rumple to kill bc the power the dagger possesses. But I also get how someone would think it sort of trashes the character of Baelfire. He only was the nice man people loved bc Rumple sacrificed his well-being for him. Now, as far as memory charms causing you to fix the darkness in your heart…..sure I can buy that. Especially since it was just one instance as opposed to like an entire lifetime for Regina, Hook, Rumple, and others (hence why they maybe can’t just take a memory potion and call it a day). I mean, it might work, but then they wouldn’t remember anything bc all the dark stuff they had done happened so long ago. They would be like a vegetable and have no idea what was going on. What’s troubling with this though is that these villains should have used a memory potion on themselves right after they did all this bad stuff. But I get that they liked the bad stuff they were doing and probably wouldn’t have taken it though.
Touchy subject here. I get why Baelfire lovers are angry but this really does change so much in my mind regarding Rumple. They sort of trashed a dead character to help get a better ending for an alive one. Baelfire fans also loved Rumple when he sacrificed everything for his son. This is another case of that. So that’s good! It does not retcon him at all and makes us feel so bad for him that he turned out the way he did. But it was at the expense of Baelfire which is unfortunate. For me, Rumple has always been a better character and my favorite so I’m not as annoyed by all of this. It only helps him and puts the one thing we all agree was Rumple’s best trait in the forefront coming down the stretch here…….and that’s his willingness to do whatever it takes for his son. His love for Baelfire. He saved him. It really turns everything on it’s head and people may need to process it for a bit. But Rumple’s character is so different now for me. Rumple could have given up the darkness and been a perfectly good person. But he saved his son from a dark fate and now is an addict of power. And it’s also good that Rumple in present day knows that his lust for power is a problem. It’s admirable that he doesn’t want that for his son now, or Baelfire back then.
Yes, this. If they actually wanted to retcon the dagger into the One Ring, then fine — but they’d need to do a lot more work to make it plausible. Along the same lines, if the dagger is such a corrupting influence (presumably once’s you’ve held it and ordered a Dark One around with it), then how come Gideon just hands it back, no questions asked? Wouldn’t the logical reaction be “ooh, I got me a Dark One, lets go take out the Black Fairy now”? And why would Rumple give it out to Bae in the first place if it has such a horrible effect (unless, of course, he doesn’t know)? They do have material to work with, both in-universe and in terms of folkloric tropes if they wanted to suggest that this sort of power is both literally and figuratively corrupting. It certainly would explain why no one tried to order the Dark One out of commission, and locked the dagger away — which, of course, has a lot of precedents in all sorts of fairy tales. They could have done such an interesting speculation on why the proverbial genie always ends up imprisoned in some lamp somewhere: that eventually someone somewhere grows a brain and realizes that this kind of power is bad news for everyone. But my point is that if we all have to collectively do this much work to make this whole thing make any sense at all, they’re doing it wrong.
It is odd that Gideon was not seemingly affected by holding the dagger. But perhaps holding the dagger doesn’t mean you want to be the DO or control the DO. Maybe it just means you want to continue lusting for dark magic. So for him, it’s killing the Savior. Once he took it from Rumple, his willingness to still do that and go to the blue fairy to get her blood increased. And there have been others who controlled the dagger or became the DO who all of a sudden, turned into a crazy person. Hook, Cora (although she was a psycho and sort of always wanted more power), Emma a little, Rumple obviously, Arthur, and now Baelfire. And as you say, they have material to work with here. But they probably need to flesh out the control the dagger and the darkness can have on someone more consistently, if that is the way they are going with this.
I am glad they had him drink the memory potion and that Rumple then took all the blame on himself to save his son from the darkness,
I don’t understand how a memory potion affects darkness in one’s soul. Like not remembering you’ve done something bad completely takes away the impulse to do bad things? It means your soul is turned bright white again? This seems pretty nonsensical to me. Why not just give all the villains memory potions then!
Well this kind of explains that “Hook being a dark one but not knowing he was” thing in season 5. Correct me if I am wrong, but I don’t think he did anything “bad” during that period so this could explain why.
EDIT : Just saw someone else replied to this and your reply.
While I completely agree with your reply for this (lack of sleep, memories). It could be argued that he didn’t see anything wrong with the lack of sleep because the loss of memories could have caused a bit of a reality distortion/confusion. Out of topic, but I wonder how patients that return from coma deal with getting used to following a sleeping cycle again.
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