So, chances of queer romance in S4, and with who?

[Crystal Princess]

It seems like the Swan Queen stuff reached fever pitch recently. Personally, I have a lot of issues with how people ruling out Swan Queen because of the lack of writing, chemistry or it being somehow problematic support other ships with problematic elements – I’m not saying people can’t ship those(I ship Rumbelle) but be aware there are problems that people are more blind to because of heteronormativity etc. I think that OUAT’s Queer fanbase has been really alienated when most of us really made a lot of noise promoting the series. It’s wrong that nearly 70 eps in and with 120+ speaking roles featured none of them have been unambiguously queer, and no queer relationships have been featured on a show with love – especially the inversion of tropes associated with love in fairytales – is a central theme. This isn’t just an oversight, it’s wrong, and I want that to be recognised. OUAT is a worse show for it, as are a multitude of other shows that are much the same. But OUAT in particular has gotten a boost in popularity from the queer fanbase who have been heavily marginalised both by the showrunners and fandom.

What I want to be acknowledged first of all – stuff changes. I very much doubt either OutlawQueen or CaptainSwan were planned from the beginning, owing to Robin Hood’s lack of hand tattoo and Hook originally being a ‘Disposable’ character. I also want to warn people against any and all bi erasure – also reminding people that many people do not discover their true sexuality until later in life. With “lost” characters like Emma & Regina, or characters with identity issues like Elsa, Ruby and Ariel, it’s even more likely to happen. It’s really really important that straight people don’t tell the queer fanbase what would or wouldn’t be “Realistic” in terms of a queer relationship, because you’d be surprised at what does happen in real life – let alone a world influenced by fairy tales. It’s also important to acknowledge that while you may not consider yourself homophobic, you still live in a heteronormative culture which upholds certain values. It’s important not to take it personally when someone points this out. Even LGBT people internalise this stuff. I used to buy into the “it’ll just be tokenism” nonsense at one point too. Here’s a reason why that sucks – http://www.heyash.com/in-defense-of-arbitrary-diversity/

With that out of the way –

Kristin Bauer is returning for part 2 of Season 4. She is known for playing a queer female vampire in True Blood – and Maleficent, the recent movie they’re cashing in on, also has a decent queer following. Possible chance of romance between her and Aurora’s mother?

Ruby doesn’t have a love interest yet, and has a certain queer air to her.

Tink could also be a good candidate.

Some have pointed to Archie as a male gay lead – who could be paired up with? Maybe Sydney?

I’m kind of mad at them ruling out Elsa for this – or at least bringing in Elsa but not doing the one thing that would have made her inclusion, being somewhat of an LGBT icon, worthwhile(still smells of cash cow to me), so I’m thinking of what else they can do.

Just going to lay down the rules here. The ship must be –

A) Between two main or recurring characters of the same sex/gender, preferable female owing to OUAT’s sizeable lesbian/bi fanbase
B) Be completely unambiguous, you don’t skirt around CaptainSwan so why this?
C) Not end tragically like 90% of lesbian romances I’ve seen lately.
D) Be held on the same level as the “True Love” Snow and Charming have.

Other fun stuff they can do – Ruby is actually transgender. Backstory of her seeing someone for that, her wolfy secret almost comes out etc. etc. Also, introduce an asexual/aromantic character. Since OUAT is so love-centric, it needs to teach that it shouldn’t be hoisted on everyone either. Ideally I’d like to see some form of Polyamory explored but don’t see it happening. Also, given the show isn’t too “family friendly” to show sex workers, why not give us a strong example of one instead of a prop to show how “pure” Hook is?

[RumplesGirl]

A) Between two main or recurring characters of the same sex/gender, preferable female owing to OUAT’s sizeable lesbian/bi fanbase B) Be completely unambiguous, you don’t skirt around CaptainSwan so why this? C) Not end tragically like 90% of lesbian romances I’ve seen lately. D) Be held on the same level as the “True Love” Snow and Charming have

I want to say one things first. I don’t have enough faith in the writers anymore to ever–ever ever ever ever–give you the kind of fair diversity you’re looking for. I think they’ll parade Mulan around in name (and name only) until the show is done as “Mulan was our LBGT rep” even though we all know that it was read as ambiguous and will most likely never come up again, even if Mal is returning in 4B and therefor a chance of Aurora returning as well.

It really sucks and it’s happening not only with LGBT but with race as well, though I know that’s another thread for another time.

However, to get back to CrystalPrincess and the questions posed.

Now that Meghan Ory is free from Intelligence, I’d like to see her paired up with another female. Merida perhaps? The huntress and the wolf? Totally unambiguous and working through relationship issues just like Snow and Charming, Rumbelle, CS, OQ and ect.

If I had to pick for the gay males, one of my pet headcanons is that Hercules would be gay and in a committed relationship with Phil, the trainer (who is not part goat in my version).

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[TheWatcher]

Hey Crystal 😀 its been a long time, hope all is well!!

A) Between two main or recurring characters of the same sex/gender, preferable female owing to OUAT’s sizeable lesbian/bi fanbase B) Be completely unambiguous, you don’t skirt around CaptainSwan so why this? C) Not end tragically like 90% of lesbian romances I’ve seen lately. D) Be held on the same level as the “True Love” Snow and Charming have.

I would ship Archie with Hercules (if we are going against canon Disney ships). Archie would be the smart nerdy, level headed type, while Herc would be the aggressive and physical. I suspect Archie would be too shy to make the first move though…. Ah, if I wrote fanfiction 😛 Also, I like the idea that Mulan would go to the army and fall in love with Shang who would turn out to be a woman in disguise as a man as well and they fall for eachother. I forget who came up with that idea (RG, wasn’t it you?) but I really like it. It’d be a GREAT plot twist.

Personally, I have a lot of issues with how people ruling out Swan Queen because of the lack of writing, chemistry or it being somehow problematic support other ships with problematic elements

Hmmm… But aren’t these valid reasons to rule out a ship? If it isn’t being intentionally written, the chemistry isn’t clearly undeniably romantic, and it goes against an established ship, what’s wrong with people not shipping it? *genuine question, sorry if it sounds smug or anything >>*

It’s wrong that nearly 70 eps in and with 120+ speaking roles featured none of them have been unambiguously queer, and no queer relationships have been featured on a show with love

I have full faith that WHEN Mulan returns, they will give her a Queer True Love relationship at some point. They tested the waters with her and Aurora and it was met with positivity as far as I am aware. They can’t just go back and act like that never happened. They have to finish what they started. So for me atleast, its just a matter of time before we see a genuine queer relationship and im sure it will involve mulan.

also reminding people that many people do not discover their true sexuality until later in life.

If this is the case for any character, especially major ones like Emma or Regina, then its the writers job to actually lead us into it rather than just have it happen out of the blue. That’s one of my main reasons that I don’t ship SQ, its not because its a queer ship, its because I don’t believe either of them to be queer based on what has been shown from S1 till now. For Emma to suddenly be attracted to Regina isn’t realistic to me because I didn’t see any build up to it. Call It heteronormativity if you will, but if the writers way of hinting a romance between Emma and Regina is little side glances or other small things like what tumblr would have me believe, they are doing a terrible job. Look at True Blood for example. There was one character, Tara, who is suddenly a lesbian at the beginning of one episode. No build up, no foreshadowing, just suddenly she is in a committed relationship with another woman and it just came out of nowhere. That is not a good writing. Sure, in real life, people may realize their sexuality later in life but in TV-world we aren’t following every character around all the time, reading their thoughts and emotions. If they want us to know they are queer, they have to show us rather than just have it happen.

Kristin Bauer is returning for part 2 of Season 4. She is known for playing a queer female vampire in True Blood

She turned Tara into a vampire and I shipped them for awhile <3 😛

I’m kind of mad at them ruling out Elsa for this

Im not. What makes Frozen an original Disney Princess film is that it focuses on the love between sisters rather than romantic love. The focus shouldn’t be about Elsa and some love interest, it should be about her and Anna. That’s the heart of the movie.

(who is not part goat in my version).

LOL Thanks for clarifying that RG xD

 

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[RumplesGirl]

Also, I like the idea that Mulan would go to the army and fall in love with Shang who would turn out to be a woman in disguise as a man as well and they fall for eachother. I forget who came up with that idea (RG, wasn’t it you?) but I really like it. It’d be a GREAT plot twist.

’twas I, yes.

I have full faith that WHEN Mulan returns, they will give her a Queer True Love relationship at some point.

you’re cute

They can’t just go back and act like that never happened. They have to finish what they started.

oh honey. now I just feel sad

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Crystal Princess]

After how the queer fanbase has been treated I honestly have zero reason to just go on the good graces of the writers. Waiting for whatever bread crumbs are thrown n our direction is a really horrible feeling and I can’t begin to describe it.

If this is the case for any character, especially major ones like Emma or Regina, then its the writers job to actually lead us into it rather than just have it happen out of the blue. That’s one of my main reasons that I don’t ship SQ,

The problem with this is that SQ is consistently one of the most popular ships online despite the marginalisation, misrepresentation and sometimes flat out abuse directed at us. Even if not everyone sees it – a lot of people do. So they’re already half way there. This is based on subtext – imagine if they actually pursued it? You could make arguments for CaptainSwan or OutlawQueen being forced, because in many ways they are. Friendships or friendly rivalries can develop into romance. It can be done if they want to.

I think part of the problem here is that there is a sort of model for romance that people tend to buy into especially these days, the Twilight-ish, bad boy kind of romance. For some reason, Emma and Regina’s antagonism lies outside the boundaries of this(yes, in part because they are queer,  sorry, heteronormativity is a thing, we’re less used to seeing this stuff). But in many ways, the way in which they’ve developed together has built a strong foundation for them to start a romantic relationship should they need to. I think that people are taught to see the wrong cues in terms of romance in the sort of groups that OUAT seems to target. Or rather about one vocal part of it – it also attracts the likes of me. I don’t want to get too much into feminist theory, but patriarchy, gender roles, that sort of thing, we do have weird standards for what romance looks like sometimes. In the queer community – we tend to deconstruct that since the same roles don’t apply to us. That could be why there’s such a disconnect between the straight and queer shippers.

I also disagree that it’s impossible for the writers to pull off a decent queer ship. Writers write characters of the opposite gender and completely different life experiences all the time, and don’t always fail at it. Jane Espensen has the capability of writing queer ships. If worse comes to worst, get someone on board who knows how to do it. I really think if they want to make it happen, it isn’t a big deal.

I don't cause commotions, I am one.

[RumplesGirl]

After how the queer fanbase has been treated I honestly have zero reason to just go on the good graces of the writers. Waiting for whatever bread crumbs are thrown n our direction is a really horrible feeling and I can’t begin to describe it.

And I can’t begin to understand it :-/ I’m sorry that they aren’t as bold as some of us had hoped they would be. If–if–they ever do tackle a very real LGBT relationship in the vein of a hetero one, then I’ll gladly eat my words.

I really think if they want to make it happen, it isn’t a big deal.

There’s something that has been said in other threads but it works here as well: there is a way, but no will. First you must have the will to do a thing. And sadly, I don’t think the ONCE writers have it.

 

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Crystal Princess]

(I just reditted the post, sorry about htat)

lately i’ve been watching lost girl, but it has it’s own problems. it has a habit of pulling out the straw feminist as if to say “hey at least we’re not like THESE whackos” and had one really transphobic episode they issues a half-arsed apology for. I love the show and it’s characters to bits, almost as much as OUAT but it sucks that I felt like I was forced to go  through with the show because there were so few like it. The same episode was the one that started the ship between the main character and her female love interest, so it wasn’t easy to just skip. I had to endure imagery of someone being “outed” as “male” by being forcibly groped, and the whole “oh is that stubble” nonsense.

Even being triggered like that – Lost Girl still seems more like “home” to me than OUAT because of it, a safer space overall. I don’t think they’ll make that same mistake again even though it aggravates me that they pull the pro-LGBT line with no T characters(unless you read the Liderc as one which you kind of can, thus the issue).  It’s a place that I at least know doesn’t sanitise itself to look more attractive to middle of the road white, straight america and still managed to pull in 5 seasons.  OUAT may be Disney fare but I’ll never buy the family friendly line. It gets dark. Granted so does Disney sometimes – but it definitely feels more like something like Lost Girl than it does a family show, just less sexy.

it’s meant to be new twists on old tales. what’s a fresh twist isn’t just something like having rumplestiltskin be the beast, it’s stuff like actually representing groups traditionally left out of these tales. i love fairy tales in theory but there are so many problems with them. i want to see like i can be a fairy tale princess without having to marry a prince.

I don't cause commotions, I am one.

[TheWatcher]

Hercules+Archie = CricketGod 😛 my headcannon, they met in the EF and Hercules was turned into a Dalmatian as his curse which is why Archie loves Pongo so much 😛

I think that OUAT’s Queer fanbase has been really alienated

I think a lot of people are very dismissive of the SQ ship but not necessarily a Queer ship in general. There are definetely a lot of Oncers who wouldn’t have minded seeing Elsa in a queer relationship as well as various other characters too, which is why I think this thread is nice, but when it comes down to those particular characters, Emma/Regina, I’m not on board with it. But then again, my OUAT social experiences mainly come from this forum and I know we aren’t as bad as Tumblr or Twitter or some of the other forums so I can’t speak about how other oncers there treat the situation. But I just wanted to say that. A lot of us aren’t against the Queer fanbase at all and welcome a queer relationship into the show and would love it so long as it well written, but not everyone who disagrees with Emma/Regina is against other queer relationships. Sorry if I’m rambling.

"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGIC

[Myril]

I think a lot of people are very dismissive of the SQ ship but not necessarily a Queer ship in general.

I am not sure about that, because of discussions here on this board as well as other forums and Tumblr, Twitter, Facebook. I very well can differentiate between arguments against SQ based on their fictional history, moral objections concerning Regina’s doings and Emma’s suffering because of that, and objections made based on gender and sexual orientation. The latter might not be meant by everyone right away homophobic, but it is stuck in heteronormative imagery. It would help to admit it is. I’ve struggled with heteronormative imagery a lot myself, still do, it’s not easy to overcome that, even if being someone not fitting into these images myself. I hate that they still influence me and what I do at times, that there are enough prejudices still fogging my own mind, but I try. I dislike being called out for when I fail, who likes to admit a mistake or limited view, but that is how I learn.

Maybe a lot of people wouldn’t be dismissive. It’s nice to guess that most people won’t throw verbal tomatoes or worse at a queer ship and its shippers as long as it isn’t the two lead characters of this show, but do you actively ask for a queer ship to happen? There is a difference between being okay if it happens, not minding either if not, and supporting change, to see that the show lacks diversity and ask for that to be changed, because in real life we are a lot more diverse than what is shown on screen. Being not dismissive doesn’t mean being supportive.

I have plenty of problems with most popular ships, and most of the canon ships particularly. Never saw that much chemistry in SwanFire nor do I see any sizzling chemistry in OutlawQueen. RumBelle at least has a certain chemistry, but that is very much because of the brilliance of Robert Carlyle (he probably could make dancing with a doll feel hot and steamy). It’s amazing, that they didn’t mess up Snow and Charming from the start, but they hardly know what to make of them now. The best developed pairing, though with a few issues, is Emma and Hook. I have huge ethical problems with RumBelle, mostly because I have a growing problem with Belle as she is characterized on the show. And I have an even bigger issue with OutlawQueen, which aside that Emma had to suffer a lot more than Robin had to by the doings of Regina, is basically in my opinion the same no-go as Emma and Regina. I find it remarkable, how people can ship one but cry foul about the other, but that is my view. I have growing problem with the portrayal of love, romance, relationships on this show in general, and their overall ethics if it comes to handling “evil” and “good” (and certainly I am all for grey and evil isn’t born, as atheist don’t believe in heaven and hell, but neither in the doom of genetics though).

Yes, I wonder why SwanQueen is that big of an issue to people.

I am not reducing it to heteronormativity, I do see other things, for example identification processes with lead characters, and there is by now some scorched ground in the fandom, burns on all sides involved, but heteronormativity looks like a significant point to me. Plain and simple: If we like it or not, we would have a different discussion about SwanQueen if these two were of different gender.

Do I trust these writers to do any good portrayal of queer relationship ever? They hardly manage to do any portrayal of a relationship I would call desirable, and neither any dramatically interesting. So, no, as they mess up hetero relationships they will make a mess of any queer one (and I mean that not in a good, dramatic way, but ignorant writing).

But I am at a point where I don’t care that much anymore, if they would do a good queer portrayal on this show, just do it.

Call maybe Mulan’s not outspoken feelings a start, but that was nothing more like an appetizer. Bring her back and give her a love interest, unambiguous this time.

If it shouldn’t be a one episode thing (it shouldn’t), and seeing that they’ve already more characters even supporting ones than they can handle, it better should be with someone already on the show IMO. So best choice in my view is to pair Mulan up with Ruby. They share some traits (fearless, loyal, good friends to others, don’t mind to stay in the back, knowledge of being an outsider) but have some interesting differences too (Ruby is more of an extrovert, playful, outgoing, spontaneous, while Mulan is more a typical introvert, guarded, serious, taking time). Could be interesting as character development for both.

Can see another story with Maleficent (involving Aurora’s mother), but that would be a tragic story, and as much as I wouldn’t mind to have that too, I wouldn’t want it to be the only one.

¯\_(?????? ?)_/¯

[PriceofMagic]

I think a lot of people are very dismissive of the SQ ship but not necessarily a Queer ship in general. There are definetely a lot of Oncers who wouldn’t have minded seeing Elsa in a queer relationship as well as various other characters too, which is why I think this thread is nice, but when it comes down to those particular characters, Emma/Regina, I’m not on board with it. But then again, my OUAT social experiences mainly come from this forum and I know we aren’t as bad as Tumblr or Twitter or some of the other forums so I can’t speak about how other oncers there treat the situation. But I just wanted to say that. A lot of us aren’t against the Queer fanbase at all and welcome a queer relationship into the show and would love it so long as it well written, but not everyone who disagrees with Emma/Regina is against other queer relationships.

Well said Watcher! 🙂 Regina is essentially Emma’s step-grandmother hence why I don’t support SQ as a romantic pairing.

I wouldn’t mind seeing Archie in a same-sex relationship with someone but I don’t know who. I like Watcher’s suggestion for Mulan and Shang. I would like to see FrankenWolf play out and that was the original plan for Ruby so I don’t think they would necessarily put her into a same-sex relationship.

All magic comes with a price!

Keeper of Felix

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