The Rumbelle Dilemma

[sierraleone]

I’m sorry, but no. I don’t think Belle is being in any way abusive. She is setting boundaries to protect her son and herself from an abusive man. Boundaries can also contain conditions, and her conditions are perfectly normal and reasonable. At least by saying ”if you do x then you can have a relationship with your son and maybe me too” she is giving him a chance. If she said, ”I don’t care if you change, from now on you can’t see your son or me” then that would be less reasonable because she would be giving him NO chance. Going by your logic, every time we lock up a criminal (and crime doesn’t have to be just actions, it can be emotional abuse, too) or tell them that they are free but on certain conditions, or that they will be but on a restraining order, then the law is being abusive!!!

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More or less agreed. To people who saying Belle is being abusive, what does Belle *not* being abusive look like? While still protecting her from Rumple’s abuse, and protecting her safety, personal agency, and basic-dignity?

Unfortunently, due to how this show is set-up, they need (or feel they need) to play out this relationship, and keep these two characters interacting, which, in previous seasons, meant it ends up with Belle ignoring her boundaries and forgiving/taking back Rumple, then setting boundaries, then getting mad when he broken them, then over again. So she ends up like a stereotyped abuse woman who keeps going back to her abuser.

Belle can’t solve this on her own, even if she was the perfect partner with the perfect response to Rumple’s abuse, whatever that means or looks like. She has tried working it out in the past, however imperfect it was done. What do we expect of her?

The only think I can say, is she shouldn’t have married him when she did, and/or she should have left sooner. She can’t fix him, he needs to fix himself.

[RumplesGirl]

what does Belle *not* being abusive look like? While still protecting her from Rumple’s abuse, and protecting her safety, personal agency, and basic-dignity?

I think not waffling as much as she does is a good start–I mean one week Rumple’s not allowed any contact, any communication, any say in raising the child; the next she’s giving him ultrasound pictures. It’s not so much boundaries as unfair bargaining but not hearing what the other person is saying.

Communication is a REAL real real real problem with these two. Belle doesn’t want to hear what Rumple is telling (I can be better, but not different) and she does have a tendency (lately) to say truly nasty things to him (I no longer see the man, only the beast).

It’s an ugly relationship.

She can’t fix him, he needs to fix himself.

I agree.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Slurpeez]

To answer the question of whether or not Rumple is abusive, I think it depends on what a person means by abuse since there is more than one definition. Abuse can mean the improper use of something (such as alcohol or drugs), or abuse can mean cruel and violent treatment of someone.

I completely think Rumple abuses magic as a substance since he’s addicted to it; he is totally hooked on the stuff, emotionally, physically, and psychologically. As a result, his actions are driven by his addiction, which Belle sees. Belle said his true love is magic. He is actually dependant upon it, and as such, he puts power above everyone, including Belle. However, from Belle’s perspective, that just isn’t good enough. As she said, she just wanted to be chosen. She wanted to be put first before magic, which Rumple has never done for her.

The time he actually managed to overcome his nasty habit of self-preservation was when he saved his family from Peter Pan. Rumple did so knowing he’d die, so he knew he wouldn’t really have to live without the power after his final sacrifice. After he got resurrected, we Rumple chose Bae over dagger when he surrendered it to Zelena to try and save Neal after he resurrected his father. From Rumple’s perspective, his sacrifice was in vain because he still lost his beloved boy in season three. I think Rumple really doesn’t think it’s worthwhile to give up power for family since he did so and still lost his firstborn son. From Rumple’s perspective, it’s probably pointless to stop abusing magic, especially if it means he cannot protect his family.

So, is Rumple abusive to his family? In the way that an addict is abusive, yes. Does Rumple intentionally go out of his way to inflict emotional harm on his family? No, I don’t think he ever meant to harm them, but he has. It’s the direct result of choosing power over them. Every time he hides his addiction to magic from Belle (for fear she’ll disapprove, which she does), it blows up in his face. So he has dropped the charade and decided to come out in the open about his love of power. Is his behavior abusive though? Yes, since he has caused emotional harm towards Belle and Baelfire and even physical harm and death to others. He has intentionally harmed others malice or revenge (see Milha, Hook, Robin) or to meet his own ends (see Regina, Cora, Emma, Snow, etc…)

Is Belle abusive? Well, she doesn’t abuse magic, so her actions aren’t the result of an addiction the way they are for Rumple. Does she still mistreat Rumple emotionally? Well, I don’t think she ever meant to inflict harm emotionally or otherwise towards Rumple. All she has ever wanted to do was help free him from his curse, but he hasn’t wanted her to do so. Belle has the heart of a hero and cannot stand for injustice or to see Rumple mistreat others (e.g. his plan to use an innocent baby to lure the dark fairy). Belle simply doesn’t condone his evil and sinister deeds born of addiction to the darkest of magic. So, she does call him names like “beast” which might be seen as cruel to Rumple and his supporters, but is she really wrong? He does act like a monster when he indulges his addiction to dark magic and gives into his darkest impulses to harm and kill.

She has seen the good in Rumple, but she also sees the darkness. He has laid it all out in the open and indulged in dark magic. If he is going to kill people and plot to harm others, Belle setting boundaries and limiting or cutting off access to her and their child is called being responsible. To do otherwise would be to enable Rumple’s addiction to the darkest of all magic or even to be an accomplice to his evil deeds.

Belle is right to say he could still change, to say there is still a chance he could have his son in his life if only Rumple would kick the habit of dark magic. That isn’t emotional blackmail or abuse. That’s the truth. I don’t think Belle is wrong to want to protect the son from the father’s addiction to dark magic. After all, a mother who lets a father abuse illegal drugs in front of the child isn’t acting in the interests of the child. A responsible parent would try and shield the innocent child from the corrupting influence of the addicted parent.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

. If he is going to kill people and plot to harm others, Belle setting boundaries and limiting or cutting off access to her and their child is called being responsible

To play devil’s advocate, though, is he planning to do that? Because he said that he could be a better man, but not different. I take that to mean he’d stop killing the peasants. Did she give him a chance or just demand a change in behavior and when her demands were unanswered, she withheld affection, support, and acceptance. I think the problem is that we often have a hard time rationalizing this Belle with “I love him. All of him, even the parts that belong to the darkness.” I don’t blame Belle for wanting to protect herself and her son but she’s apparently ALWAYS known what sort of depravity Rumple could sink–torturing Robin, using a baby for his own agenda, ect–and still that never stopped her from loving him, fighting for him, advocating for him, or wanting to be with him. I don’t want to say mixed signals but…mixed signals.

These two need to flipping TALK not just act. It’s one of the biggest flaws of this show–no one actually talks, really sits down and discusses much. Conversations that are needed get reduced to one scene or not at all.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Slurpeez]

To play devil’s advocate, though, is he planning to do that?

Belle has due cause at least to be concerned, if not outright suspect her husband’s motives, given Rumple’s miserable track record.

Because he said that he could be a better man, but not different. I take that to mean he’d stop killing the peasants.

What reason does she have to think he could be a better man without giving up the curse that binds him? Rumple sucked all those magical creatures into the sorcerer’s hat. He has unleashed so many villains on Storybrooke, without any real concern for the town, and he left the heroes to defeat them: Cora, The Snow Queen, Cruella, Ursula, and Mr. Hyde. Even when he wasn’t the dark one in S5a, Rumple still found a way to become the dark one again, only the darkness was amplified 100 fold. Rumple told Baelfire that he would use the power for good to save the children from the ogres war (which he did), but then that power corrupted him. I don’t believe Rumple really would or could only use the darkness for good. Not even Emma, true love incarnate, had the strength to do that since every time she used dark magic, its lure grew stronger and her resistance became weaker until she took the darkest possible path and tethered Hook to Excalibur.

Did she give him a chance or just demand a change in behavior and when her demands were unanswered, she withheld affection, support, and acceptance.

Belle gave Rumple another chance after the darkness was forcibly expunged from him, despite how much he had hurt her, and he still found a way to become the darkest of dark ones, which he conveniently withheld from his wife and then got Belle pregnant her without her knowledge of it, which some might consider a lack of consent issue.

I think the problem is that we often have a hard time rationalizing this Belle with “I love him. All of him, even the parts that belong to the darkness.”

Some fans think that means Belle somehow condones or loves the dark deeds that Rumple does. No, she clearly doesn’t. she didn’t love it when he tortured Robin Hood or when he threatened to kill Hook. When properly interpreted, I think that line means Belle loves all of Rumple, even if he’s cursed. Belle was able to separate Rumple the good spinner and loving father from the dark one curse itself, but that doesn’t mean she loves the darkness in him (which is amoral). She has never loved the curse since she has always hoped their love would be true enough to break it. She said in Skin Deep that she might love Rumple (the man) but that something dark had taken root in him. She wanted to free Rumple of that curse.

I don’t blame Belle for wanting to protect herself and her son but she’s apparently ALWAYS known what sort of depravity Rumple could sink–torturing Robin, using a baby for his own agenda, ect–and still that never stopped her from loving him, fighting for him, advocating for him, or wanting to be with him. I don’t want to say mixed signals but…mixed signals.

Just maybe the writers have always meant for this version of Beauty and the Beast to be more of a cautionary tale.

Evil Queen: So, if I’m right, you love your employer, but you’re leaving him.
Belle: I might love him. I mean, I could, except… Something evil has taken root in him.
Evil Queen: Sounds like a curse to me. And all curses can be broken. A kiss born of true love would do it.
 Oh, child, no. I would never suggest a young woman to kiss a man who held her captive. What kind of message is that?

What kind of message indeed? A cautionary one. Rumple kidnaps children, tortures his victims, makes unholy deals, and kills or maims whoever displeases him. Belle thought that was just the dark curse, but now Rumple has claimed that is who he really is. Belle has tried time and time again to say it doesn’t have to be that way, but Rumple has insisted he’ll never be the man she thinks he can be. He has embraced the darkness rather than fight it anymore. The curse has amplified his natural ability to sin, especially as he’s given into its lure, and it’s taken hold of him.

"That’s how you know you’ve really got a home. When you leave it, there’s this feeling that you can’t shake. You just miss it." Neal Cassidy

[RumplesGirl]

@Slurpeez

I don’t necessarily disagree with most of what you’re saying. Belle has given him a lot of chances and historically Rumple keeps making poor choices. I also think you’re right that abuse is a tricky word and I wish I could find a better one when it comes to Belle because while abuse is a loaded word and maybe not the right one, the problem is that Belle does come across as wholly inconsistent not only from episode to episode but from scene to scene. It’s that constant back and forth–from “there’s hope and we can be a family and raise our son even if it’s not together!” to “I am 10000% done with you, you’ll have no contact with our child or any say in how he’s raised or any say in anything unless you act how I want”–that’s so frustrating.

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[RumplesGirl]

@Slurpeez I don’t necessarily disagree with most of what you’re saying. Belle has given him a lot of chances and historically Rumple keeps making poor choices. I also think you’re right that abuse is a tricky word and I wish I could find a better one when it comes to Belle because while abuse is a loaded word and maybe not the right one, the problem is that Belle does come across as wholly inconsistent not only from episode to episode but from scene to scene. It’s that constant back and forth–from “there’s hope and we can be a family and raise our son even if it’s not together!” to “I am 10000% done with you, you’ll have no contact with our child or any say in how he’s raised or any say in anything unless you act how I want”–that’s so frustrating.

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Adding one more thing but if we look ahead to next week:

we know that Rumple and Belle team up to face a surprising danger to their son. So what do we take from this? That when Belle decides Gideon needs extra protection, then she can call on Rumple to Dark One it up and protect Gideon? To use his magic to meet her desires? But in all other cases, when Belle says “nope,” then being who Rumple is choosing to be is verboten? First, to quote Snow, “defeat and repeat” that’s their life. Belle needs to make a clean break and learn not to rely on Rumple’s magic when she needs it OR she needs to reopen the lines of communication and actually sit down and set real boundaries and not change her mind when it suits her ends

"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"

[Genevieve]

Ever since 3B, I viewed Rumple’s character through as someone struggling with PTSD – I unfortunately have some experience with people who suffer from it, and I often compare him to men and women who come back from war missing pieces of themselves, and they and their loved ones suffer for it.  I think being resurrected, followed by watching Bae die, followed by a year of having his will completely taken from him broke Rumple in a way that Belle willfully refused to see. Is she to blame for his destructive behavior? No.  Does she bear some responsibility for enabling it, and allowing things to pop right back to “normal”after a series of very traumatic events?  I think so.  I think she wanted that perfect “happily ever after” so badly that she didn’t consider what was the best thing for Rumple.

I’m veering off into headcannon here – I also think Rumple blames Belle in a way for Bae’s death, and that could explain his unconscious sabotaging of the relationship.  I could see Rumple thinking that if she had stayed away when he asked her to leave in the EF, or shortly after the curse was broken, Bae might still be alive.  Was it her fault? No.  We know that she tried to prevent Bae from going through with it, but if Rumple can’t blame Belle, that would mean it was Bae’s fault, and I don’t think that’s a thought he’s capable of handling.

[AKA]

To people who saying Belle is being abusive, what does Belle *not* being abusive look like? While still protecting her from Rumple’s abuse, and protecting her safety, personal agency, and basic-dignity?

Wow, I went to bed early and look what happened.  I am going to give one example but could give many more. Belle not being “abusive” could look like this

1. Text Rumple “Hey Rumple you are really scaring me, how about opening up the shop so we can talk” (non abusive)

2. Knocking on the shop door really loudly and saying “Rumple I know you are in there open up so we can talk” (non abusive)

3. Using a key I am sure she has and unlocking the shop door finding Rumple and saying Hey we need to talk (non abusive)

4. Asking Emma to unspell the door (if it is magically protected) and then finding Rumple and saying Hey we need to talk (non abusive)

Running to the woman who KILLED his son and working with her to steal a wand to take her and their baby to a place that he will never find them  because he locked the shop door while he was in there(ABUSIVE)

[thedarkonedearie]

Put me in the Belle camp.  We all know Rumple is abusive.  That has been well documented this season.  Has Belle been inconsistent with what she tells Rumple?  Yup, she has.  But has Rumple been inconsistent with what he’s told Belle?  Yup, he most certainly has.  So I can’t blame Belle for being inconsistent when it seems she’s only reacting to the inconsistencies of Rumple.  One day he’s nicer and wants to change, the next he can’t change but would try and be different, the next he’s locking her on a ship, the next he just doesn’t want to lose another son, the next he wants to accelerate her pregnancy and use the shears on Gideon, the next he doesn’t want to lose Belle so he doesn’t accelerate the pregnancy, the next he’s threatening to steal her child because that’s what Rumpelstiltskin does.  Anyone who says Belle is doing the abuse, in my opinion, is entirely off-base with this one.

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