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Emma the Savior facing off with the anti-Savior, Lily, could also be part of the final battle of good vs evil.
I see them more as Jacob and Esau, which is ultimately a reconciliation story.
I agree. This is probably more likely scenario than some kind of final battle confrontation.
[adrotate group="5"]So how does the story play out? Well…(spoiler alert) Jesus died and rises again. But in doing so, he conquers death and the devil (he actually went down to Hell for a few days and then busted out…)
Busted in to free the prisoners, I’ve been taught. I’m mentioning this only because I think it has an interesting potential OUAT story development: if Emma takes on the burden of the Dark One without going over the edge and using it for her own gain, she could be the one to rescue Rumpel and his predecessors from the Dark Ones’ cursed afterlife.
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Emma the Savior facing off with the anti-Savior, Lily, could also be part of the final battle of good vs evil.
I see them more as Jacob and Esau, which is ultimately a reconciliation story.
I agree. This is probably more likely scenario than some kind of final battle confrontation.
With the spoiler that they’ve apparently given Lily a daughter, I can’t see them killing Lily in some ultimate battle. Which makes me wonder what does happen to all that darkness that apparently went into her? Unless, like Slurpeez suggests there was no darkness, no ritual. It was all a trick from the Apprentice
So how does the story play out? Well…(spoiler alert) Jesus died and rises again. But in doing so, he conquers death and the devil (he actually went down to Hell for a few days and then busted out…)
Busted in to free the prisoners, I’ve been taught. I’m mentioning this only because I think it has an interesting potential OUAT story development: if Emma takes on the burden of the Dark One without going over the edge and using it for her own gain, she could be the one to rescue Rumpel and his predecessors from the Dark Ones’ cursed afterlife.
You’re right, that’s a better way to put it.
As for the Rumple factor, that’s an interesting way to look at it and not one I’d stopped to consider. But, I guess the question I come back to is…is there really hope for the “devil” after everything he’s done. Lucifer isn’t forgiven; he’s cast into a pit of fire and brimstone (in Rev.)
If Emma rejects the darkness that Rumple puts into her from his own heart (as per Slurpeez’s theory) then it would go straight back to Rumple and I’m not sure there is any saving him at that point, especially given his heart clutching which seems to indicate that he’s working with limited time.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"As for the Rumple factor, that’s an interesting way to look at it and not one I’d stopped to consider. But, I guess the question I come back to is…is there really hope for the “devil” after everything he’s done. Lucifer isn’t forgiven; he’s cast into a pit of fire and brimstone (in Rev.)
I think the devil in this case would be whatever the original Dark One power is, and the people whose names are on the dagger are just those who have believed the lies of that dark power. The devil himself doesn’t become a prisoner until the very end of the book.
(Just to put my cards on the table face-up, I’m from a quiet fundamentalist denomination. I don’t want to annoy anyone.)
Gaultheria's fanvids: http://youtube.com/sagethrasher
As for the Rumple factor, that’s an interesting way to look at it and not one I’d stopped to consider. But, I guess the question I come back to is…is there really hope for the “devil” after everything he’s done. Lucifer isn’t forgiven; he’s cast into a pit of fire and brimstone (in Rev.)
I think the devil in this case would be whatever the original Dark One power is, and the people whose names are on the dagger are just those who have believed the lies of that dark power. The devil himself doesn’t become a prisoner until the very end of the book. (Just to put my cards on the table face-up, I’m from a quiet fundamentalist denomination. I don’t want to annoy anyone.)
That’s not a bad idea! Destroy the power, without destroying the man. Rumple is left human again, I suppose, and his S5 arc is really about finding his way back after so much darkness. It would still be a “death” but not a literal human dying–just Emma vanquishing darkness. My only qualm is Belle’s role in all this since her TLK (and her status as the Beauty to the Beast) is supposed to do that particular deed. Belle would help him redefine his humanity post-destruction of DO’s power, but I could see some…people…*cough* shippers *cough* being pretty upset that Belle didn’t break his curse with TLK.
Not that A and E necessarily have to play to their shippers.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"I think the devil in this case would be whatever the original Dark One power is, and the people whose names are on the dagger are just those who have believed the lies of that dark power. The devil himself doesn’t become a prisoner until the very end of the book. (Just to put my cards on the table face-up, I’m from a quiet fundamentalist denomination. I don’t want to annoy anyone.)
That’s not a bad idea! Destroy the power, without destroying the man. Rumple is left human again, I suppose, and his S5 arc is really about finding his way back after so much darkness. It would still be a “death” but not a literal human dying–just Emma vanquishing darkness. My only qualm is Belle’s role in all this since her TLK (and her status as the Beauty to the Beast) is supposed to do that particular deed. Belle would help him redefine his humanity post-destruction of DO’s power, but I could see some…people…*cough* shippers *cough* being pretty upset that Belle didn’t break his curse with TLK. Not that A and E necessarily have to play to their shippers.
As tangential support for this possibility, Rumple says in the episode in S1 where he’s turned into the DO something to the effect of “but imagine if one could use these powers for good, I would save ALL the orphans in the kingdom” or something like that. We know how that works out for him (absolute power corrupts absolutely), of course, but it might be different for Emma. After all, human Rumple was well-intentioned, but all in all he was an average Joe, not the Savior.
I was always under the impression that for it to work, TLK had to be, ahem, between two consenting participants (even when one is asleep)? As in, both have to be on board with whatever transformation TL might bring — whether it is parent/child love which presupposes letting the child become their own person, or between lovers or husband/wife where one has to be open to one’s own, or one’s partner’s potential for change. (In the original B&B story, the Beast wasn’t holding back on being in love, he had actually made himself pretty vulnerable). E&A’s retelling of the BB story is closer to a standard contemporary romance novel structure: the whole notion of the woman saving the man from himself DESPITE his best efforts and turning him into a prince charming. Which, in my humble, is pretty fraught, to put it mildly (again, free will, personal choices and all that).
Another thought — the Savior thing is also quite important outside of the Christian tradition. A lot of the fairy tales are actually based on ancient Greek myths. So just as an example, the Prometheus story is a Savior story of sorts — for Prometheus, appropriating the power of the gods (fire) for the benefit of the humans (who are otherwise miserable, cold, and hungry) results in Zeus’s punishing him through eternal torture by way of eagle — until Hercules comes along and frees him. Not sure how that relates to Emma, safe for the fact that death/rebirth isn’t the only scenario.
No matter if Rumple lives or dies by the end of this season he’s going to have a “death” of some kind, I would bet. The variables are will it be by exorcising the evil from him in battle vs. Emma, Belle’s TLK, or an outright being stabbed and someone becoming the new Dark One. Or it could be a combination of things. Where you stand comes down to whether you believe Bobby will be back for season five. Is there a place or purpose on the show for a powerless Rumple? I personally think he’s not returning for season five, and if he does it will be for the occasional flashback and not full time.
Personally, I think it’s going to come down to a final showdown of him and Emma. Emma prevails, Rumple is weakened, Belle kisses him and his curse is completely lifted. He’s once again the humble spinner, a human, but the price to pay for his exorcism and redemption is death. Human Rumple passes away, finally at peace, his soul finally free. Shippers get their TLK, Dearies get a curse free Rumple and Emma is reborn, stronger and more confident in her role as the savior.
Sidenote on TLK: Most fairytales are not hinged on True Love’s Kiss. That is more of a Disney invention. Beauty transforms the Beast with her tears and mourning, Snow White is awakened when one of Prince’s men trips and jostles the coffin dislodging the apple piece, older versions of Sleeping Beauty she’s awakened by her nursing child. Disney has really affected how most view fairy tales to the point the originals are unrecognizable, but much more interesting.
Keeper of Rumplestiltskin's and Neal's spears and war paint and crystal ball.
As tangential support for this possibility, Rumple says in the episode in S1 where he’s turned into the DO something to the effect of “but imagine if one could use these powers for good, I would save ALL the orphans in the kingdom” or something like that. We know how that works out for him (absolute power corrupts absolutely), of course, but it might be different for Emma. After all, human Rumple was well-intentioned, but all in all he was an average Joe, not the Savior.
To be fair to the Imp, he didn’t just say it. He did go out and save all the Children from the Ogres war. He brought them home.
Another thought — the Savior thing is also quite important outside of the Christian tradition. A lot of the fairy tales are actually based on ancient Greek myths. So just as an example, the Prometheus story is a Savior story of sorts — for Prometheus, appropriating the power of the gods (fire) for the benefit of the humans (who are otherwise miserable, cold, and hungry) results in Zeus’s punishing him through eternal torture by way of eagle — until Hercules comes along and frees him. Not sure how that relates to Emma, safe for the fact that death/rebirth isn’t the only scenario.
Oh absolutely. But here in the Western world we are more informed by Christian ideas just because it’s our cultural landscape. Everyone might read the Greek myths and find them interesting but you’re rarely see someone ascribing any meaning to them in terms of belief and how they might play out in the modern world. The Greek myths are less “solid” in terms of canon too. The example you gave is a good one–everyone knows the story of Prometheus, or so they think. The basic story is true…but there are different elements depending on who you read. Zeus: tyrant/despot or just? Prometheus: bad guy or just trying to be helpful. Even though there exists thousands of other gospels written by early Christians, the big 4 made it into the Bible and have become the accepted story for believer and for anyone who wants to pick up those theme and run with them in standard reinterpretations, (ie: TV writers who want to play with archetypes). The archetype of Savior is insanely old (Gilgamesh, Odysseus, Aeneas) but as we live in the place we live in (the western world) we automatically jump to Christ, whether you believe or not. The story A and E are telling–light vs dark–is probably the oldest story, archetypically speaking, known to man.
Personally, I think it’s going to come down to a final showdown of him and Emma. Emma prevails, Rumple is weakened, Belle kisses him and his curse is completely lifted. He’s once again the humble spinner, a human, but the price to pay for his exorcism and redemption is death.
*nods*
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Oh absolutely. But here in the Western world we are more informed by Christian ideas just because it’s our cultural landscape. Everyone might read the Greek myths and find them interesting but you’re rarely see someone ascribing any meaning to them in terms of belief and how they might play out in the modern world. The Greek myths are less “solid” in terms of canon too. The example you gave is a good one–everyone knows the story of Prometheus, or so they think. The basic story is true…but there are different elements depending on who you read. Zeus: tyrant/despot or just? Prometheus: bad guy or just trying to be helpful. Even though there exists thousands of other gospels written by early Christians, the big 4 made it into the Bible and have become the accepted story for believer and for anyone who wants to pick up those theme and run with them in standard reinterpretations, (ie: TV writers who want to play with archetypes). The archetype of Savior is insanely old (Gilgamesh, Odysseus, Aeneas) but as we live in the place we live in (the western world) we automatically jump to Christ, whether you believe or not. The story A and E are telling–light vs dark–is probably the oldest story, archetypically speaking, known to man.
You’re absolutely right. At the same time, as far as cultural archetypes go, there are some that mainstream pop culture (sorry OUAT) is more comfortable “playing with” than others. The interesting thing about fairytales (or ancient Greek myths for that matter) is actually their original ambiguity, which lends itself to pretty radical retelling, in accordance with the mores of the time (so villains become heroes and vice versa etc… I mean, a lot of Shakespeare’s stuff for example is a retelling of these older stories). By contrast, the Christian canon is probably not going to be “re-imagined” too radically, for the obvious reason that you are pointing out.
Now, on another note, Emma’s story, if you look at its elements, is also your typical shamanic origin myth, of the skeptic who, through eventually accepting one’s legacy, and through death and rebirth, comes into one’s power and saves the tribe. This certainly isn’t limited to the Western world, or to the Christian canon — it’s kind of a proto narrative. An interesting corollary of this is that a failure to accept one’s calling in these narratives results in one’s destruction. Which works nicely with Emma’s occasional comment that she doesn’t seem to have much of a choice.
the Christian canon is probably not going to be “re-imagined” too radically, for the obvious reason that you are pointing out.
That’s very true as well. Though, the ‘Last Temptation of Christ’ did it fairly explosively and there have definitely been bolder moves on the part of literature (TV…take longer), though your point remains. A and E (and okay, let’s be fair…ABC and the Great Mouse) ain’t gonna re-imagine Christianity on their 8pm Sunday show that is “family friendly.”
Now, on another note, Emma’s story, if you look at its elements, is also your typical shamanic origin myth, of the skeptic who, through eventually accepting one’s legacy, and through death and rebirth, comes into one’s power and saves the tribe. This certainly isn’t limited to the Western world, or to the Christian canon — it’s kind of a proto narrative. An interesting corollary of this is that a failure to accept one’s calling in these narratives results in one’s destruction. Which works nicely with Emma’s occasional comment that she doesn’t seem to have much of a choice.
Very nice!
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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