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so the short version of all this: I’m mad that Hook chose to hide his secret, I’m mad that this feels like a setup to inevitably sweep it all under the rug, I’m mad that he (and the show?) are placing Emma’s feelings about this above Charmings, I’m mad that people are making this about the CS proposal and not about the state of their relationship in general, I’m mad that we all just know this going to end with Hook doing something good to make up for what he did, I’m mad that A&E once again had an opportunity to show Hook as a good guy and didn’t, but will expect us to see him as such anyway.
This is a pretty fair assessment. Also this…
A mistake is something you do accidently. Hook made a choice and was only stopped by being caught in the act.
This is an incredibly fair point. For example, @thedarkonedearie brought up that if everyone has forgiven Regina and preaches forgiveness then it should extend to Hook as well because it’s the idea that they are changed people. Okay, but it also works the other way. We don’t call it a mistake when Rumple took back the Dark One’s powers. We don’t call it a mistake when Regina cast the Dark Curse or conspired with Cora. They were choices.
The difference, I think, between and Regina and Hook this episode was a study in contrasts: Regina chose not to do the wrong thing–killing the Evil Queen with a heart crush. Regina stopped herself, knowing that killing the Evil Queen was not the right path. Hook chose to do the wrong thing–erase his memories so Emma and Charming never learned of it. And the only reason that didn’t come to pass was because of Emma’s timely entrance and her totally random understanding that she was seeing her grandfather….
So is he really a changed person if the baseline for one is not continuously doing bad things? Why does no one say that Rumple has been redeemed? Because he keeps making bad choices.
[adrotate group="5"]"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Sure. But normal people aren’t going to forgive you for that over the course of one day. Look at how long it took Regina with others. I don’t want Hook to confess and get forgiven in the span of one episode or even two.
Haha so true. It’s why they needed Hook to tell him before now so that they could give Charming a few episodes to reflect and then eventually forgive him. If he forgives him on the spot or in one episode, that is a problem.
A mistake is something you do accidently. Hook made a choice and was only stopped by being caught in the act.
I think you can make a choice that was a mistake. A mistake is, “An action or judgement that is misguided or wrong.” Hook’s action was planning on destroying his memories thus not telling Emma and Charming the truth. And that was a wrong action. Thus, his choice to perform that action, was wrong, thus making it a mistake.
But I don’t think this should be about the way the proposal went down. What does it matter? Its about what is happening between Hook and Emma right now as they are planning to move their relationship to the next level. What good is a proposal when you find out the person you are trying to marry is keeping big secrets from you. That’s not a good way to start a life together. I’m no CS fan but even if it was, screw the proposal, it could have been the most extravagant magical man on one knee proposal ever, once Hook made that choice all that goes out the window. This shouldn’t be a way to lead them to doing a better proposal.
Not to bring up any ship wars or whatever, but I have to think that if it was reversed and Neal and Emma’s proposal didn’t go as planned and was murky and the perfect proposal all SF fans were hoping for got ruined, you would be rooting for the show to turn that around and do a double take and give the audience the proposal they wanted to see. But maybe not…
And that’s an issue for me. I feel like all this is nothing but a big runaround, a setup for a big moment for Hook. Which I don’t have a problem with but I feel a much better option would have been for him to tell the truth in the first place!!! THAT would have shown he was a changed man, a noble man, a brave man who was confronting the past and laying himself out bare for Emma knowing that she may leave him and then having her accept his proposal or whatever. This was a yuge missed opportunity.
I don’t disagree with this. It would have been better to just have Hook tell her. But this is why the CS proposal matters! Bc he was about to tell her and then the writers stupidly had Emma find the ring, interrupt Hook, and influence Hook into not ruining the moment, even though it was already ruined bc he was drunk and had a huge secret to tell her, instead of letting Hook do the right thing and do what he finally got the courage to do. So not only did Hook’s character take a hit bc he didn’t tell her, but the whole proposal is shadowed by this lie. They royally screwed it up. So now, they need to fix it. Not even from a CS standpoint, but from a character standpoint to bring Hook out of the crapper again and to give Emma the proper proposal, with no secrets, with the man she loves. It’s important for the story. At least I think so.
But….okay, don’t throw tomoatoes at me here but…. Does Hook deserve it? Once again….Hook made a choice. One that was only stopped by Emma walking in on him in the act. Had Hook had it his way, no one was ever going to find out. In the words of a great sorcerer, its not a persons actions that define them, but their choices.
And what I’ll say to this is simply that the writers want us to feel like Emma gave him no choice but to propose on the spot, and they want us to feel like Hook wasn’t really able to tell her at that point. The writers wanted their cake and eat it too. They wanted Hook to back out of telling the truth to cause drama but also wanted the fans to know he was absolutely going to tell her. The problem though is that HE STILL COULD HAVE TOLD HER. So now people who don’t like Hook can ignore that he had made a decision to tell her and was going to and simply focus on the fact that after the proposal, he made the wrong decision, a choice, a mistake, to not tell anyone. The writer’s plan backfired. So in order to properly fix Hook’s character, and give the main character, Emma, the proper happy ending, or at least a wedding to someone she loves, they HAVE to fix the proposal. They have to fix what Hook ultimately decided to do or this relationship’s final bow will not stick.
Not to bring up any ship wars or whatever, but I have to think that if it was reversed and Neal and Emma’s proposal didn’t go as planned and was murky and the perfect proposal all SF fans were hoping for got ruined, you would be rooting for the show to turn that around and do a double take and give the audience the proposal they wanted to see. But maybe not…
It’s about Hook’s actions and what it says about his character, though. And for the record, if Neal lied to Emma, tried to hide things from her, tried to protect his own skin over giving her the truth, I’d be angry as heck at him Would I want them to work it out? Sure. Just like the CSers want CS to work this out. No one is going to deny that they want their ship to work.
It’s about what these actions say about the characters, not just the actions themselves. I *understand* on an emotional level why Hook didn’t tell Emma, I think we all do. It’s motivated by fear. But this isn’t the first time (not even the first time this season!) this same scenario has happened and it’s like Emma said, “we have to stop lying to each other!” These two keep doing this to each other and we have to question what that says about their relationship and themselves as individuals.
The writer’s plan backfired. So in order to properly fix Hook’s character, and give the main character, Emma, the proper happy ending, or at least a wedding to someone she loves, they HAVE to fix the proposal. They have to fix what Hook ultimately decided to do or this relationship’s final bow will not stick.
Oh I’m not disputing that at all. Obviously there will be a second go around that the writers feel is more genuine. In universe that’s the writers excuse (Hook messed it up the first time but now we’ll fix it so it’s UBER romantic for the shippers!) but I think we’re all thinking about out-of-universe and what this says, again, about those two and their relationship.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"This is a lie because it is an attempt to deceive Emma. Hook is hiding something. He may not be deceiving Emma through speaking, but he is deceiving her by not speaking.
Also, there is a huge difference between Regina and Hooks’ behavior. As others have said, Regina has done the right thing many many times this season when she could have done the wrong thing. Hook is still being the same. Drunk, lying, thinking only of himself, no care for anyone but keeping Emma, right up til the end of the episode. He tried to destroy his memories. He was going to leave without saying anything. He was drunk when he talked to Snow and still didn’t tell her anything of what happened and that maybe she shouldn’t be happy about their engagement. Hook was still the same. There was no change.
There was no repeatedly trying and doing the right thing like with Regina. Hook might do one helpful thing, maybe, he also might not. Hook might just come back and Emma will hug him and that will be it. We don’t know, but even if he does one helpful thing, it won’t prove that he actually changed because he got caught. He has yet to do the right thing because he wants to be open and honest with Emma. He needs to do the right thing because it is the right thing and not because Emma might be upset and not because he got caught or Henry might tell or any of that.
He needs to do the right thing because it is the right thing and not because Emma might be upset and not because he got caught or Henry might tell or any of that.
I think we are going to see that at the conclusion of this show. Bc that is one thing that he keeps failing on. Sure we saw him help Belle and save her life. Which apparently I’m the only one on here that gives him props for that. He didn’t have to risk his life for her. And basically for Rumple who was powerless. But other than that, and his actions to help Charming find out about his father, which were somewhat motivated by getting Charming’s approval and blessing to propose to Emma, he has mostly done good things to appease Emma, but not necessarily realizing he should do them bc it is unequivocally the right thing to do, like the constant good decisions Regina has made countless times in her redemption arc. I’d like to see him make that connection and see the difference by the end of the season. And I think we will. I hope we will.
Sure we saw him help Belle and save her life. Which apparently I’m the only one on here that gives him props for that.
well….let’s look at the tape, shall we?
(all from the Fav/Least Fav thread for 6×02)
Well, we’ve demanded an apology from Hook about all the horrors he’s inflicted on Belle over the years and we finally got one–and one that was free of snark and ego. Good for him. I am pleasantly surprised by this.
Hook acknowledging and being remorseful about what he did to Belle! A step in the right direction!
I didn’t hate Hook. For the first time in, like, ever. He actually apologized to Belle, and was a decent, level-headed human. He was also not dominating every singly conversation.
Hook, Yes it is about time to apologize without any sarcasm. I was pleasantly surprised and happy.
The Hook and Belle scene on board the Jolly Roger. I really liked Hook’s apology. It sounded sincere, and was made all the more so by how he was attempting to help Belle.
Hook’s sincere apology, and self awareness that he’s really NOT actually a redeemed hero just yet was quite surprising and greatly appreciated!
Hook apologised to Belle- that was the highlight of the episode for me
All from users who are either staunch SF’ers or who are, at least, not banner waving CSers.
We can actually be critical of him when we think it’s justified and still acknowledge when he does something good. All of this is to point out that we’re not totally off our nut, we’re not just bitter shippers who are unhappy our thing didn’t sail and that we can capable of rational and logical appreciation of Hook when it calls for it
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"Since this is related, I guess I should share a theory of mine that I already told RG. It involves spoilers, though:
For those who follow spoilers, we know that Isaac was announced to be returning around the time they were filming 617. I kept trying to think why they would need to bring Isaac back, especially since he was absent from “Page 23”, the most logical episode he could have played a role in. And then it hit me. I recall Adam and Eddy saying that the Papa Charming murder subplot would be resolved by Easter, and 617 happens to be the episode that airs on Easter Sunday. While of course 617 is expected to be when Snow and Charming finally break their sleeping curse, it could also serve as a resolution for the PapaCharming subplot. So how would Isaac factor into this? Well perhaps it’ll turn out that Hook only killed Robert because Isaac wrote him to do so to “make for a better story”. If it’s revealed that Isaac, rather than Hook, is responsible, then that makes it all the more believable for Charming to forgive Hook. It would be a cop out and convoluted for sure, but just think about which writers we’re dealing with here. They wanted their drama by making Hook the murderer, but they also might want an easy way out of resolving this. Of course this wouldn’t erase that Hook still withheld the truth from both Emma and Charming, whether Isaac controlled his actions or not.
He needs to do the right thing because it is the right thing and not because Emma might be upset and not because he got caught or Henry might tell or any of that.
I think we are going to see that at the conclusion of this show. Bc that is one thing that he keeps failing on. Sure we saw him help Belle and save her life. Which apparently I’m the only one on here that gives him props for that. He didn’t have to risk his life for her. And basically for Rumple who was powerless. But other than that, and his actions to help Charming find out about his father, which were somewhat motivated by getting Charming’s approval and blessing to propose to Emma, he has mostly done good things to appease Emma, but not necessarily realizing he should do them bc it is unequivocally the right thing to do, like the constant good decisions Regina has made countless times in her redemption arc. I’d like to see him make that connection and see the difference by the end of the season. And I think we will. I hope we will.
I am not sure that they will. Like i said, Hook doing one good thing is not enough. Regina has been working hard at doing the right thing for a couple seasons now. I still think it is ridiculous that Regina is part of the group because of her past actions and i don’t think her redemption really works either, but at least there is something there. Hook doing one thing is not enough. Especially now in this situation where he is on the outs with Emma again and he has something to gain from acting good again for a minute.
It isn’t enough for them dating to work. Them dating makes no sense in the context of how Hook actually behaves on the show. And it is going to be way more then them just dating. They are getting engaged and married and one time doing right because it is the right thing to do is not enough. It makes them all seem like crazy people because of it. Because Hook has tried to kill the majority of them, multiple times and recently and he still is not acting any different.
They have waited too long and not done enough with Hook’s “redemption” to earn a wedding when they haven’t even earned them dating.
Since this is related, I guess I should share a theory of mine that I already told RG. It involves spoilers, though:
I think you’re theory is *insanely* likely.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"RG, no doubt I remember after the episode aired that people on here gave him props. What I meant was that since then, it seems people have forgotten about it bc no one ever mentions that when they talk about how Hook only does good things when they directly affect Emma. And then I bring it up, and then no one acknowledges it. People conveniently forget.
And my golly is that a theory……and I actually think it makes total sense.
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