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I don’t give Hook any special points for helping Belle not be murdered on his ship. I don’t think that what Hook did there was all that special or noteworthy. It is certainly not some show of a great change within him. If anything his behavior just seemed bizarre and out of character as does Belle’s. Especially when in the last episode he is trying to erase and burn his memories because he can get away with it then run off without saying anything.
Also, Hook must have been pretty close to get to his ship anyways and then he was fighting to protect himself from Jekyll. It just doesn’t feel like some great deed. Hook didn’t have to sacrifice anything to protect Belle except for the time it took him to walk over to his ship. When Hook actually has something to lose, like Emma, which it is always Emma, then he does the thing that will best protect himself from losing her even if it hurts her or is just evil.
Regina had a choice. The thing that would have probably been the best to protect herself would be to kill the Evil Queen. No one would have known. The Evil Queen would no longer be a danger. Regina could have kept the light in her heart and not had to share in the darkness with the Evil Queen. She could have hidden what happened and no one would have known, but she didn’t do that. She thought about the Evil Queen as a person. She thought about wish Robin. She thought about Henry.
I have real problems with Regina’s characterization, but i do think there is at least a change in her way of thinking and behaving that i don’t see in Hook. Certainly Hook hasn’t changed significantly enough to be getting married to Emma in six episodes, some of which they will not even be in the same place. Though, i imagine they will be reunited at the end of the next episode.
[adrotate group="5"]I don’t give Hook any special points for helping Belle not be murdered on his ship. I don’t think that what Hook did there was all that special or noteworthy. It is certainly not some show of a great change within him. If anything his behavior just seemed bizarre and out of character as does Belle’s. Especially when in the last episode he is trying to erase and burn his memories because he can get away with it then run off without saying anything.
RG, see. And how can you say there wasn’t a change within him? He did not treat Belle very well like a season before that and he spent his whole life trying to kill Rumple. But instead here, he saves both of them. Putting Belle and Rumple and the town first over himself and sacrificing his life isn’t a change for him? He literally was the most selfish person ever. He has left people in danger while he scurries away countless times in the past. How can you say this was not noteworthy? You’re coming off as a bitter anti-Hook fan. Give the guy props when he does something worthwhile. Belle and Rumple would be dead without him.
Also, Hook must have been pretty close to get to his ship anyways and then he was fighting to protect himself from Jekyll. It just doesn’t feel like some great deed. Hook didn’t have to sacrifice anything to protect Belle except for the time it took him to walk over to his ship. When Hook actually has something to lose, like Emma, which it is always Emma, then he does the thing that will best protect himself from losing her even if it hurts her or is just evil.
He had to sacrifice himself and there was a good chance he could possibly die! Of course he had something to lose. He could have lost his life. Are you insane? And it was for someone he barely interacted with. Oh, and it’s the wife of a guy he absolutely hates. And you say Regina thinks about Henry when she makes good choices, someone she loves. Hook thinks of Emma. Someone he loves. What’s the difference?
Regina had a choice. The thing that would have probably been the best to protect herself would be to kill the Evil Queen. No one would have known. The Evil Queen would no longer be a danger. Regina could have kept the light in her heart and not had to share in the darkness with the Evil Queen. She could have hidden what happened and no one would have known, but she didn’t do that. She thought about the Evil Queen as a person. She thought about wish Robin. She thought about Henry.
Hook had a choice. He could have just let it happen. Just think about what you just compared. Regina could have killed the Evil Queen, someone she has loathed (herself) for her entire life. But she didn’t. What about Hook? He spent nearly his entire life trying to get revenge on Rumple by skinning himself a crocodile. And in that moment on the boat, he could have let that happen. He could have let Belle die and who knows what Hyde would have done to Rumple but if I recall he threatened to kill him in that scene. Hook could have watched it all happen and done nothing and Rumple would have died. But instead, he made the right choice, just like Regina not killing the EQ, and stepped in, saved Belle, put his life on the line, saved Rumple, and saved the town by killing both Jekyll and Hyde. And you don’t give him props for that? But you give Regina props for not killing the EQ? This is the kind of double standard that I was talking about. Blows my mind.
Why did you say see? I am one person. I am not a collective group think.
Hook has not changed. Lying, drunk, hiding stuff, and only thinking of how things effect himself, yesterday. Hook is not a some guy that i am not giving a chance. He is a character on a tv show being written this way. Hook didn’t let a woman die. He stopped trying to murder her. That is not some great rise to a level of worthy of Emma. He is not worthy of Emma. He has barely dragged himself to normal human decency. And barely, because yesterday he was hardly there because he was going to leave a woman who was abandoned as a child and travel to another realm without saying anything. Yesterday, he was going to remove and destroy his memories and never say anything.
Regina thought about Henry’s feelings, and the Evil Queens’s feelings, and wish Robin’s feelings. Hook doesn’t even seem aware that other people have feelings. He talks about how it will make him feel for Snow and Charming to know. He talks about what might happen to him of Emma doesn’t just forgive him. He doesn’t even seem to realize that Charming and Emma have feelings to hurt.
Hook did intervene with Belle, but he must have been right there. It is just the barest level of humanity to me. It is not some great deed. He stepped in to stop squirrelly little Jekyll who was no real danger to Hook. As Hook is now he can maybe be allowed to walk around town unjailed because it seems he won’t murder people randomly, at least since he is not the dark one, but he is not worthy of marrying Emma.
Hook not letting Belle be murdered by Jekyll is not even in the same realm as Regina didn’t murder the Evil Queen and instead shared her lightness with her, let her speak to her son and Snow knowing they would offer forgiveness, and then sent her to a realm where she would find her happy ending with wish Robin. One of these is not like the other.
Hook doesn’t even seem aware that other people have feelings. He talks about how it will make him feel for Snow and Charming to know. He talks about what might happen to him of Emma doesn’t just forgive him. He doesn’t even seem to realize that Charming and Emma have feelings to hurt.
Gotta agree here, Hook seems very selfish, and doesnt seem to really care about others outside of what will effect him. When he does its usually revolving around Emma stuff (if he does something bad, emma will leave him,etc).
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICI am actually going to defend Hook here. I used to hate him but season 6 has actually made him somewhat likeable. He’s not my favourite regular but he’s now in my top 3 (4 if we’re counting Gideon).
Firstly, Hook should get total props for helping Belle. I’m not talking about saving her from Jekyll (that’s just basic human decency), I’m talking about him offering Belle a place to stay after she left Rumple. The genuine apology was a welcome bonus but he stepped up to help Belle out especially when Emma didn’t give a damn to try and assist Belle in any way. Belle went to Granny’s to ask for a room and Emma’s response was basically “You don’t want to stay here, it’s awful”. That was it. So not only did Emma disrespect Granny by speaking ill of her business but she also didn’t offer Belle any alternative place to stay. It was Hook who actually did the decent thing and provided Belle with some accommodation when she had no where else to go.
Secondly, in regards to Hook trying to burn the memory of killing Charming’s father rather than tell Emma, I don’t hold it against him. It wasn’t the right thing to do but it makes sense. He’d summoned up the courage (dutch courage) to tell her the truth and before he gets the chance, she catches him off guard with the ring. There is a reason why you’re supposed to listen and give people a chance to talk when they are trying to disclose something, it’s because that might be the only chance they do. It takes a lot of courage to admit something, to the point it could literally be a “now or never” situation. Hook got drunk because he needed to, in order to have the courage to tell Emma about what he did, but then then because she jumped him with the ring, the moment was gone and Hook then didn’t have the courage. He knows he should tell her the truth, he’s been told he should tell her the truth, but that doesn’t make doing so any easier. Hook went to the next logical solution, if he couldn’t tell Emma then he’d get rid of the memory all together. It wasn’t right but I can see why he did it.
I actually think we should be more critical of Emma than Hook to be honest for several reasons:
1. She went rooting through his stuff and found the ring. He wasn’t actually going to propose until after telling her the truth. She jumped him with the proposal.
2. Emma was angry with Hook, not because of what he did, but because he didn’t tell HER. That is actually kind of selfish on her part because she cares more about her feelings than the fact that Hook had murdered her paternal grandfather.
3. Hook was using one of Emma’s magical dreamcatchers from her time as the DO. Why does Emma still have them?
ScrewballNinja actually comes up with an interesting point about Emma http://screwballninja.tumblr.com/post/158969270976/yeah-honestly-if-emma-still-has-all-her
In fact, the real betrayal for Emma isn’t about her father at all– it’s that Hook didn’t let her in because post Dark Swan Emma is *obsessed* with control. She controlled Hook’s death, she controlled his memories, she even controlled him post-death by trying to drag him back to life when he was ambivalent about it. And that’s why Emma shows Hook the ring when she finds it after searching his belongings all day– because now she can control when he asks her because she already knows her answer. Hook is drunk and clearly upset but she still pushes because she’s afraid to let Hook propose on his own. She doesn’t trust him to actually follow through without her guiding the situation. Yikes!
Screwball Ninja also makes some interesting points about Emma’s costuming this season. Basically costuming is used to send messages about character eg the EQ dresses are more cleavage heavy whilst modern day Regina dresses more demurely. Emma’s clothing style has changed so drastically (possibly because of JMO’s input) that it’s not very Emma like.
Emma’s foray into white lacey button-up high-collar shirts is coded as sexual repression– I’m pretty sure that’s not what’s intended. (Even the expression “buttoned-up” is shorthand for repressed.)
These kind of shirts are wildly impractical for sherrif-ing or savior-ing: they limit your arm movements, they don’t handle sweat well, the lace is scratchy, and the itty-bitty fastenings take ages to put off and on. Not to mention it would take Hook forever to unbutton her one-handed. They’re the type of shirts worn by women who DON’T have to swing broadswords down main street.
In fact, if you want your wardrobe to say “open to love” you put the character in soft silks and cotton and open v-necks– open necks are a sign of vulnerability. You know, like Emma wore in S1:
Coupled with Emma’s lack of makeup, these white starched high-collared shirts put her firmly in the “beginning” section of the Repressed Schoolmarm Who Has a Sexual Awakening trope. The only reason IN A ROMANCE for someone to have their hair pulled up that severely is for her lover to take it down; the only reason for a woman to have buttons up to her neck is for her lover to rip off said buttons later in a moment of passion.Screwball also goes on to say
But “The Ravishment of Emma Swan” is not what we’re seeing, is it? On the contrary, the show goes out of its way to avoid any confirmation of consummation and has Hook hang back from Emma’s repeated invitations to come in for Netflix and chilling. The overall effect is weirdly re-virginizing. WHY?…..And now Hook has to win Emma’s father’s approval AND Emma’s approval and regain his honor. This is now the story of a disgraced knight fighting for redemption through Brave Deeds and the woman waiting for her love to come home. Nothing wrong with this trope. I’m fine with this trope. I’ve read some lovely books on this trope … but S1-3 Emma WAS the brave knight! You can’t pull a switcheroo like this on the audience and not expect them to notice.
Essentially Emma’s costuming completely changes the meaning of a scene. A good example of this was Emma’s date dress with Hook. Notice the difference between the two Emma “date” dresses:
One screams confidence, the other says something completely different.
All magic comes with a price!
Keeper of FelixEmma Swan hasn’t been the real Emma Swan for a long time. She’s largely become a virginized object through which a man’s redemption is focused. Couple this with her disregard for any kind of justice (be it with Hook’s victims, Regina’s or Rumple’s) which is antithetical to her Savior trope she’s not the same character as back in S1. Sure, regression of a character is totally a narrative device in TV writing (Walter White) but you have to regress into another type of person; Emma isn’t really a person anymore, IMO. She’s a set of ideas; ideas that are largely antiquated and misogynistic.
I will absolutely criticize her as much as Hook in this situation. However, while I do understand the internal workings of Hook in this situation he still made the same choice–a bad one. Is it sympathetic? Sure. Is it largely to provide shippers with a bigger more romantic proposal to get the Twitter birds a’tweeting? Sure. Is it still a wrong choice? YES.
And it does say something about their relationship when one half has to literally yell, “we have to stop lying at each other!” Meaning: we have fallen into an unhealthy cycle of lies, regret, action, forgiveness. Lather, rinse, repeat. There is something just wrong with a relationship–and the writers who write it– where this is what’s happening every single season/arc/important moment (and that goes for all the ships on this show! Still looking at you Rumbelle)
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"2. Emma was angry with Hook, not because of what he did, but because he didn’t tell HER. That is actually kind of selfish on her part because she cares more about her feelings than the fact that Hook had murdered her paternal grandfather.
I disagree. Charming is the one who knew him and had an emotional connection to him. Emma has never seen him, never spoken to him, and the fact she can recognize him in the memory is mind boggling. Charming should be upset Hook murdered him. Emma should be upset Hook would rather hide the truth than be real with her. The murder is bad but keeping the secret is worse. From Emma’s perspective.
3. Hook was using one of Emma’s magical dreamcatchers from her time as the DO. Why does Emma still have them?
I don’t think the dreamcatchers are inherently dark magic and I like to think maybe its a hobby she now has to help her focus (Rumple still spins at the wheel, apparently). I figure the magic of the dream catchers are supposed to capture memories, and that Emma is deliberately making them for that purpose. That’s just what they do.
He knows he should tell her the truth, he’s been told he should tell her the truth, but that doesn’t make doing so any easier. Hook went to the next logical solution, if he couldn’t tell Emma then he’d get rid of the memory all together. It wasn’t right but I can see why he did it.
I 100% do hold it against him. He rationalized lying (or withholding the truth) and made a choice. I understand not wanting to tell her, I understand taking a while to build up the courage, but he moved past all that and was ready to build his new life with her literally on the bones of her grandfather. I hold it against him and Emma should not. Not for the murder, but because he lied.
"I could have the giant duck as my steed!" --Daniel Radcliffe
Keeper Of Tamara's Taser , Jafar's Staff, Kitsis’s Glasses , Ariel’s Tail, Dopey's Hat , Peter Pan’s Shadow, Outfit, & Pied Cloak,Red Queen's Castle, White Rabbit's Power To World Hop, Zelena's BroomStick, & ALL MAGICYES! Finally someone else who sides with me! Some good stuff here. Let’s see if I can pull apart some things.
Hook has not changed.
So back when he was a legit pirate, Hook would have given Belle a place to stay on his ship without the intention of sleeping with her and would have saved her life and Rumple’s, the man he hated? What about not letting Charming kill King George? You think he would have intervened in the past? No way. He absolutely would not have done any of those things. That’s the definition of change. Does he still do things that are morally gray, yup. But he has definitely changed. Not seeing that is pretty thick.
And barely, because yesterday he was hardly there because he was going to leave a woman who was abandoned as a child and travel to another realm without saying anything.
But he didn’t. He wasn’t going to leave. It’s literally the exact opposite of the dreamcatcher. He was going to do that but wasn’t going to leave on the ship. You crucify him for thinking, and then making the wrong decision but then crucify him again when he thinks and then makes the right decision? Like, come on. The guy can’t win in your eyes. Your preconceived opinions regarding Hook and his past bad behaviors seems to not let you critique him fairly in the present.
Hook did intervene with Belle, but he must have been right there. It is just the barest level of humanity to me. It is not some great deed. He stepped in to stop squirrelly little Jekyll who was no real danger to Hook.
And again, what about when he saved Henry? Was Liam not a legitimate threat too? And you can’t say that he only saved Henry bc he’s Emma’s son. Everyone is frikin related on this show. He has saved Belle, Rumple, Henry, Charming from committing murder when both he and Charming thought King George killed his father….what else does he have to do to prove he has at least changed a little for you? Again, he sometimes makes mistakes but people change and still make mistakes all the time.
Firstly, Hook should get total props for helping Belle. I’m not talking about saving her from Jekyll (that’s just basic human decency), I’m talking about him offering Belle a place to stay after she left Rumple. The genuine apology was a welcome bonus but he stepped up to help Belle out especially when Emma didn’t give a damn to try and assist Belle in any way. Belle went to Granny’s to ask for a room and Emma’s response was basically “You don’t want to stay here, it’s awful”. That was it. So not only did Emma disrespect Granny by speaking ill of her business but she also didn’t offer Belle any alternative place to stay. It was Hook who actually did the decent thing and provided Belle with some accommodation when she had no where else to go.
Thank you. For the love of God, thank you.
Secondly, in regards to Hook trying to burn the memory of killing Charming’s father rather than tell Emma, I don’t hold it against him. It wasn’t the right thing to do but it makes sense. He’d summoned up the courage (dutch courage) to tell her the truth and before he gets the chance, she catches him off guard with the ring. There is a reason why you’re supposed to listen and give people a chance to talk when they are trying to disclose something, it’s because that might be the only chance they do. It takes a lot of courage to admit something, to the point it could literally be a “now or never” situation. Hook got drunk because he needed to, in order to have the courage to tell Emma about what he did, but then then because she jumped him with the ring, the moment was gone and Hook then didn’t have the courage. He knows he should tell her the truth, he’s been told he should tell her the truth, but that doesn’t make doing so any easier. Hook went to the next logical solution, if he couldn’t tell Emma then he’d get rid of the memory all together. It wasn’t right but I can see why he did it.
Yes. Why does Hook get zero points for trying to come clean before he was interrupted by Emma? Yes, he regressed and wasn’t going to tell her, but can’t you guys empathize with his situation a little? Getting something that huge off your chest has to be so hard to do. And he clearly wanted to do the right thing. It’s not like he immediately went to the dreamcatcher and erased his memories. He thought on it for days, then tried to tell Emma. Sought advice from like a bunch of people. Haven’t you ever had a horrible secret you felt you needed to tell somebody but you were so afraid they would judge you and think differently of you, and since you were afraid to lose them, you decided not to tell them….until it finally eats you alive and you realize you have to tell them? That’s what this is! I know Daniel can empathize with Hook.
Is it sympathetic? Sure.
And do we really think we would sympathize with Hook if he hadn’t changed as person, even just a little?
Charming is the one who knew him and had an emotional connection to him. Emma has never seen him, never spoken to him, and the fact she can recognize him in the memory is mind boggling. Charming should be upset Hook murdered him. Emma should be upset Hook would rather hide the truth than be real with her. The murder is bad but keeping the secret is worse. From Emma’s perspective.
Yeah I actually agree with this. I thought Emma’s behavior was justified in this scene. She didn’t even know her grandfather. She should be more upset about Hook keeping it from her. And based on all the lies both have told, it made sense for her to give him back the ring.
And do we really think we would sympathize with Hook if he hadn’t changed as person, even just a little?
I can sympathize with a person and still think they are at fault for their actions and have character flaws to work out.
"He was a lot of things to me" "The only conclusion was love"
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